The Goods On Oils

[MrStabby]

Stock. Use 5-10W40

Build. depending on tolerances 5-10w40 to 50

+1

Why did you get a 15W-60 when there's a 5W-60 available from Penrite .

Some guys like a smaller spread on the numbers based on the theory that the oil will be more shear resistant, but i think most oils are good enough now that its no longer a realistic concern.

[mr skidz]

I'm not a fan of oils with big viscosity ranges as oils "main" job is to lubricate and

5w-60 and 10w-60 are loaded with viscosity changing polymers.

The less of these v/c polymers are in you're oil it's safe to say the better it is going to lubricate your rotating assembly when your bashing on it.

I'd stick to the common 10-30 10-40 & 20w-50 if you have a good oil cooler set up.

to race back in the stone age they were using mono grade oils as its all they had and that worked fine, They had to heat up there sump with a blowtorch just to get the oil to flow on startup we've come a long way people.

I use 300V in all my tracked bikes and will in this car as I've done 3 track days and about 7-8000 kilometres in total including road use of course but in saying that I also need to keep in mind that I've done 3 track days so I don't continue to bash the bike on the street and when I drop the oil it looks great.

I might add I would probably recommend changing the oil after every track day in a car cars generally run the whole lot hotter then bikes. cheap insurance

Edited June 18, 2015 by mr skidz

[niZmO_Man]

5W-60 runs fine on my GT-R, kept my engine together during track days.

But then so did Racing 10 10W-40...

I just like the bigger range for peace of mind (oil cooler not installed yet).

[mr skidz]

5W-60 runs fine on my GT-R, kept my engine together during track days.

But then so did Racing 10 10W-40...

I just like the bigger range for peace of mind (oil cooler not installed yet).

mate I'd do the same if I had no oil cooler.

I have run 20w 50 with no oil cooler at Wakefield with no problems but in saying that it was winter and 5 deg in the morning drive down.

we must all take into account that RBs love to rev and thick oil won't be getting thrown around too easy inside your motor to hit those nooks and crannies also.

There is a lot of variables when looking at viscosity of oils to use

Edited June 18, 2015 by mr skidz

[MrStabby]

I'm not a fan of oils with big viscosity ranges as oils "main" job is to lubricate and

5w-60 and 10w-60 are loaded with viscosity changing polymers.

The less of these v/c polymers are in you're oil it's safe to say the better it is going to lubricate your rotating assembly when your bashing on it.

The Viscosity Index (VI) of an oil depends on the combination of base stock and v/c polymers (aka viscosity index improvers (VIIs)). Do you have any URLs that show modern low VI oils lubricate better than modern high VI oils? I haven't seen that from what i've seen/read.

[scotty nm35]

to race back in the stone age they were using mono grade oils as its all they had and that worked fine, They had to heat up there sump with a blowtorch just to get the oil to flow on startup we've come a long way people.

F1 still use monograde 10 weight oils, hence the need to get the engine warm before starting it. Nothing stone age about it...

[XGTRX]

Really? Monograde mineral?

[mr skidz]

The Viscosity Index (VI) of an oil depends on the combination of base stock and v/c polymers (aka viscosity index improvers (VIIs)). Do you have any URLs that show modern low VI oils lubricate better than modern high VI oils? I haven't seen that from what i've seen/read.

I'm just not a fan that's all. don't believe there's a oil that can do it everything is a compromise.

all oils are made with there own mix so which oil are you talking about?

I'm taking the advice from a very knowledgeable oil engineer who has since passed away but I'm happy to dig his threads up and share them with you

[mr skidz]

F1 still use monograde 10 weight oils, hence the need to get the engine warm before starting it. Nothing stone age about it...

don't follow F1 n wasn't aware that they still use mono grade which proves my point that multi is not needed it's just more practical.

my father was racing for a long time in motorcycle road races/castrol 6hr n others. here n overseas and the mono castor oils was what the norm was.

[mr skidz]

Really? Monograde mineral?

indeed

[mr skidz]

These are just a couple of pages of what was like a 150 page long discussion between ducati forum members and

George Morrison a well respected oil engineer who had passed away while educating members to his final days on his death bed.

Rip George

Re: Motor Oil

In API engine oil viscosity designation, the "W" is the "winter" rating for the oil. This system was originally designed for mineral based oils, when "multi-viscosity" came into being. Mineral oils are very sensitive to temperature changes: when cooled they thicken, when heated they thin. The old single grade oils were lilke molasis at 0 degrees F. Magic of chemistry came along. Multi vis. How we make a 20W-50 mineral based oil is to start out with 20,000 gallons of 20W oil, then throw in viscosity improvers which are essentially plastic coil springs (plastomers) which expand with temperature, shink with cold. Thus when we heat this 20W oil up to operating temperature, the plastic coil springs expand, giving the 20W oil the apparent viscosity of a 50W oil. When the oil cools down, the coil springs shrink and we are back to our 20W oil we started with.. Which flows like a 20W oil at 0 degrees F. Because it IS a 20W oil..

Now to full synthetics. All the above does NOT apply. To make a 20W-50 API rated oil, we start out with a 50W base stock (essentially) and do nothing. When full synthetics are cooled, they do not thicken as mineral base oils do. Same when heated; they retain their viscosity and do not thin. Which is one of the major positives for synthetic based lubes: they provide the film thickness at higher temps yet allow easy start-up. No VI improvers needed with this oil, although in the real world VI improvers are used minimally to allow large scale production and insurance of exceeding API requirements.. But even in full synthetics, when the range gets to a 0W-50 or so, there is a slug of VI improvers in that mix.. The downside of VI improvers are that they shear, are subject to load shock, etc. NOT as good as a full synthetic molecule...

So, the old wives tail about synthetic oil being thinner is completely innacurate. Full synthetic engine oils are thicker both in base stocks and operationally..

Hope I have clarified. If not, keep the questions coming.

Thank you,

George Morrison, STLE CLS

Regarding "it doesn't seem to make sense". As a correlation of the viscosity stability of synthetic lubricants, look to water. Water does not change its viscosity until it reaches boiling point and of course freezing point where all manner of chemistry goes to heck as it not only solidifies, it expands! Irrespective, in its liquid state, water maintains its viscosity right on. Very similarly, a full synthetic base stock is very, very stable. Not to say that it does not slightly increase vis at very, very low temps, as it does, it is that the rate of viscosity change is almost straightline vs. mineral base oils which temperature graph looks like a safe dropped out a 4 story window with cold/heat.. Again, the temperature stability of synthetic base stocks is one of its many virtues in providing optimal viscosity and film thickness throughout the operational range of an engine. (and transmission, etc.)

I realize all this viscosity business is confusing but I will answer questions till the cows come home so you can have a good understanding of this very important point. Yes, you are correct in that we could call Mobil 1 MX4T a straight grade 40W, like the old mineral base straight grades. EXCEPT that we no longer can speak of mineral base chemistry.. Full synthetics, especially Group IV and V oils have an extremely stable natural viscosity characteristic. This actually is quantifiable in its measurement of Viscosity Index. (NOT viscosity, a different term here) A high quality mineral based oil will have a natural Viscosity Index (referred here on as VI) of say 96. 100 is the highest and the bestest best suite crude enables this level. We can now enhance the natural VI by adding our VI improvers from our previous discussionw. Now the enhanced VI for this same oil can be measured at 145 to 150. The higher the VI the more temperature stable the oil is. Now, untreated synthetic group IV or group V will have a natural VI as high as 190, revealing its incredible temperature stable viscosity over a broad temperature range.

Thus, with Mobil 1 MXT, it is made with a 40W base stock yet meets the API testing requirement for cold flow of a 10W. (actually almost a 0W but could you imagine how many folks would buy a 0W-40 motorcycle oill? None.. TOO Thin!!)

This all requires a paradigm shift in thinking in translating Group IV or Group V chemistry from mineral base. The whole API XXW-40 rating program was geared to multi-viscosity mineral based oils..

With synthetics it is a whole different program. Another example of the disparity. A 10W-40 mineral

based oil will be a sollid at around 20 degrees below zero F. Yet the Mobil 1 MX4T still flows freely at 40 below zero F!

Hope I am cleariing the air, if not keep the questions coming..

And yes, for the person who has run a 15W-50 in his/her engine.. No problem. I am just a nit picking lube engineer sharing information. As with Ducati, oil/lubrication is a personal issue. My quest is sharing sound lubrication principles so all can make an informed choice.

George Morrison, STLE CLS

Mobil V-Twin can certainly be used in our engines. However, with such a heavy operational viscosity, horsepower loss and heat will be the two by-products. I know this sounds strange but in racing applications we really do not stress an optimal viscosity engine oil. 99% of the lubrication in our engines is hydrodynamic lubrication. Hydrodynamic lubrication is where the person is water skiing on a very thin water film being pulled by a vehicle equipped with Goodyear Aquatread tires. In areas where one would think would not be hydrodynamic such as camshafts, valves, it is still metal floating on an oil film; hydrodynamic lubrication. So, even in racing applications, as long as we have the oil viscosity in the engine that it was designed for, we will then achieve maximum horsepower, best engine cooling and performance using the lowest optimal viscosity engine oil. On a dyno, one can see as much as 1 to 3 horsepower gain from just engine oil viscosity change. Which is why 99% of all NASCAR engines are running a 0W-30 engine oil. Same with Formula 1, Grand am, etc. are all reducing operational viscosities. Two years ago all the Grand Am racers were having heating issues at Daytona 24 as it was unusually warm. Except one. All of the Toyota engined cars were running Mobil 1 15W-50 except one which was running Mobil 1R 0W-30. It finished 3rd and the others were waay back, laps down. . For these same reasons we have been discussing they are changing from their previous 50W and 60W mineral oils to lower viscosity full synthetic engine oils.

Driving short distances, stop and go, will stress engine oil far more than racing applications.

George Morrison, STLE CLS

An excellent question, regarding viscosity spreads. With a mineral based oil, the further the spread, the more susceptible the oil will be to viscosity improver shear, shock, etc. VI improver shock is a very real, temporary condition, an almost smashing of the VI improver. With a large amount of VI improver this can lead to spalling, high wear rates, especially in engine/gearbox combinations such as ours. With a full synthetic, depending on the sophistication of the base stock, minimal VI improver use provides for a very shear-resistant lubricant. Even in a 10W-40 spread, it is possible to achieve this performance through base stock choice alone. However, as I said previously, in large scale production small amounts of very high quality VI improvers may be used to provide a greater margin of assurance that the end products will far surpass API classification. The "expensivie" VI improvers are extremely shear resistant and when combined with a high quality synthetic base stock are synergistic in their bottom line performance. Additionally there are new base stocks which are blended with normal group IV and V which provide the same physical action as VI improvers but are completely impervious to shear and provide chemistry enhancement to the base stocks in terms of film strength, oxidation resistance and overall performance.

Edited June 18, 2015 by mr skidz

[scotty nm35]

Blows that theory of running gearbox oil grades in your engine, for track protection, right out the door. I will just stick to my 10w40 thanks.

[Rockit]

After reading George's comments on the attributes of fully synthetic oils, I don't feel any more enlightened than before I commenced. It may be just my powers of comprehension?

I'm using Castrol Racing fully synthetic in my bikes, but as I understand it, that brand and probably several others is, because of some court case in the USA, still some sort of base mineral oil with synthetic qualities, (as distinct from semi-synthetic)??? I don't read into his comments whether theses types of oils meet the grade?

[scotty nm35]

He was talking about viscosity, not what base stock is in your particular brand of preferred oil. As long as you change the oil regularly, anything you run these days should provide enough film strength to protect your bearings. The better quality synthetics will just do it for longer without breaking down. Well, that's always been my take on it...

If you change your oil regularly and keep the temps under control, it probably makes no difference if you run a decent semi or the best quality synthetic on the market, as long as the viscosity is within your engine's preferred range for the climate it runs in.

[XGTRX]

^^^^^ Totally agree with this.

Lubrication optimization is obviously essential but the less impurities and other waste byproducts it contains, the less wear on engine components. That's why frequency of oil change is just as important and weight. That's why I have always liked diesel oil with its cleaners and high zinc contents.

Also talking about cold temperature wear, I find it hard to believe it is so significant at low rpm. I remember years ago in the bobtheoilguy site that an engine builder was talking on this topic and was elaborating on the fact that when the engine is cold, tolerances are increased significantly, therefore there is an advantage for a higher oil viscosity. His theory( which he practiced for over 50 years), was that it would minimise piston slap, protect the rings and assist the bearing from mechanical wear when cold due to the fact that the oil film was much thicker and could provide a structural support film.

He recommended a 40-50 weight mineral and also mentioned that a simple sump heater to keep temp at 20 degrees would be optimal.

[scotty nm35]

It's been many years since tolerances were that loose to be a problem, this aint the 60's anymore, machining and materials have come a long way, and we are running highly strung turbo cars, not clunky V8 tractors with 1mm piston clearance.

[XGTRX]

True...... sort of. LS engines come to mind. So do turbo charged engines with forged internals.

[MrStabby]

I'm just not a fan that's all. don't believe there's a oil that can do it everything is a compromise.

all oils are made with there own mix so which oil are you talking about?

I'm taking the advice from a very knowledgeable oil engineer who has since passed away but I'm happy to dig his threads up and share them with you

I read that stuff of Georges you posted and it agrees with the other info i've read.

He does say "The "expensive" VI improvers are extremely shear resistant and when combined with a high quality synthetic base stock are synergistic", which was the point I was trying to make. I didn't specify "quality" oils as i should have, so there was some ambiguity. My starting point with oil is Mobil 1 since it appears to be a bang for buck winner (as long as you don't pay Australia tax).

Also, remember that oils are continually being updated as they go through certs, eg SJ->SM->SN and change manufacturing methods eg PAO to GTL. Some time back Mobil 1 0W-40 showed shear is some motors, but these days people don't seem to be seeing it. The formulation improves over time, and the VIIs will become more shear resistant.

I would follow Georges recommendations for that particular vehicle and year of recommendation, but for a different vehicle and as time moves on they will become less and less relevant.

[mr skidz]

anyone have an update list of oils and there "current" classification as manufacturers sometimes downgrade oils from say a class 5 to 4 and so on to save costs?

[MrStabby]

Also talking about cold temperature wear, I find it hard to believe it is so significant at low rpm. I remember years ago in the bobtheoilguy site that an engine builder was talking on this topic and was elaborating on the fact that when the engine is cold, tolerances are increased significantly, therefore there is an advantage for a higher oil viscosity. His theory( which he practiced for over 50 years), was that it would minimise piston slap, protect the rings and assist the bearing from mechanical wear when cold due to the fact that the oil film was much thicker and could provide a structural support film.

He recommended a 40-50 weight mineral and also mentioned that a simple sump heater to keep temp at 20 degrees would be optimal.

Film strength in a bearing is a product of viscosity and RPM, so heavy lugging at low RPM can be risky, but then the viscosity is higher because the oil is cold. Also, when the oil is cold, there can be less flow as the high pressure means that oil can be pushed pass the bypass valve to limit pressure, rather than being pushed through bearings etc. Interestingly flow at the pump does not have much effect on film strength, unless you get into starvation.

If you heat a circular rod and circular hole made from the same material, the rod OD and hole ID will change the same amount. Forged pistons can expand more with temperature than cast block, so you need to take that into account when assembling the motor. Not sure if that's still the same problem it used to be - maybe they're tweaking the alloy's coefficient of thermal expansion to be more like cast iron?

Anyone who still recommends a mineral oil these days has not kept themselves educated with how oill tech has changed. Fairly typical of older mechanics.