The Goods On Oils

[Booki]

Question is though, will the cheaper oils do the job? Even if you have to change them twice as much?

Really what are the longterm benefits a of running a expensive group IV oil or better?

Is the added expense really worth it?

[JGTC]

absolutely nothing wrong with using the above group III / IV blends - one thing at people on SAU got right is changing out @ 5000km intervals - at this interval w/ enthusiastic street driving using normal from-the-shop oils is going to provide 95% of the protection which should allow any enthusiast to sleep well at night

what you're getting when ure buying group IV / V oils is a stronger and more stable film flowing between metal-metal contact as the temperature goes up - oil goes off when you bring it up to very high temps then let it cool down and then bring it up again - eg. street applications

even race oils are designed to work only for small periords before they are dumped becase they do not have detergents like street oil to be used over several heat cycles

at 5000kms without total prolonged abuse of mongrel driving the differnces would be negligable between a $50 oil and a $100 oil

its when ure pushing the car @ full throttle for extended periods - you will be able to differentiate between the off-the-shelf stuff and the boutiques eg track days or if you drive like a lunatic through the hills on a weekly basis

[JGTC]

IMO the only to to better this situation is to change out expensive oils just as often - i reckon if ure changing out good oil more often than the boutique stuff - that is a better way of looking after the motor - good oil meaning the good castrol syntec or edge / nulon fast flow / penrite HPR etc putting junk group II's and III's will just give you grief if you're going to drive enthusiastically

good way to tell good oils from your local store is to look for the ACEA A3/A4 certification on the back - this is a stringent standard in europe which details the sheer stability and high-heat strength in 30w and 40w oils

i wouldn't be putting in a 30w unless it had the ACEA A3/A4 certification - this will usually be on thicker 30w deeming them suitable for enthusiastic use - most 40w's being thicker will have this protection and IMO is the best weight for most motors - the perfect balance between cold and hot viscosity, not to heavy that the motor struggles to push it through the oil pump and the motor and not too thin that at high temps that it sheers and breaks down

that's why in aus people seem to preach thick 50/60/70w oils but don't understand that too thick is just as bad as being too thin

good motto to go by is 'thinnest cold weight possible / thickest hot weight as neccessary - for me 0/5/10w-40 is the best viscosity with 10w-40 being the most ideal as the gap between numbers is kept to a minimum meaning that it uses the least amout of viscosity modifiers to maintain sheer stability and high heat applicaitons

being in australia without any sub-zero temperatures means you will experience no cold start issues with a 10w where as im america where it dips below -30deg is when you might have a 'winter' oil and a 'summer' oil

Question is though, will the cheaper oils do the job? Even if you have to change them twice as much?

[Booki]

Very good info, thanks!

So what's the benefit of getting a 5w oil over a 10w? Temps do not get into tjr negatives here, but are thinner oils better on startup? Should you run the thinnest possible?

Nissan recommend a 7.5w oil, personally I have been using motel excess 5w40, purely because thats what the previous owner used, but now trying to do my own research and make up my own mind if its worth the extra bucks when I rarely push the car.

Mostly because 10w oils are cheaper then 5w, how would one feel about castrol magnatec? Or shell helix in the 10w40? Those are cheap...

[blah_blah]

Ive used Motul 8100 10w40 for many years which has keen my engine very healthy. 165,000 kms

Pretty much 170 compression across all cylinders and inside I have been told is clean

Will be switching to Castrol 10w60w as will be doing more trackwork. As mentioned above Racepace and Trent uses this oil in there race cars

[JGTC]

Very good info, thanks!

So what's the benefit of getting a 5w oil over a 10w? Temps do not get into tjr negatives here, but are thinner oils better on startup? Should you run the thinnest possible?

Nissan recommend a 7.5w oil, personally I have been using motel excess 5w40, purely because thats what the previous owner used, but now trying to do my own research and make up my own mind if its worth the extra bucks when I rarely push the car.

Mostly because 10w oils are cheaper then 5w, how would one feel about castrol magnatec? Or shell helix in the 10w40? Those are cheap...

a 5W will be thinner on start-up yes - but since temperatures her in Aus do not dip low enough - the motor will very hardly notice the difference in weight IMO due to the temps

Motul 8100 X-Cess is a brillant oil - and when you can get it for $70 - it is by far the most well made / top performing oil in that price bracket and beyond

Castrol Magnatec and Helix are made only from group III and some cheap oils are still a group II / III blend - they are cheap because they lubricate just enough to keep cars running

with a over 12yr old twin-turbo GTR pushing 300hp from the factory - you can imagine the heat generated whist driving - its not really whether you drive like a mongrel - with oils like magnatec - you are risking all types of failure everytime you decide to give it a hit - would stick to Edge if you're Castrol inclided / or Helix Ultra if you are Shell inclined - which can be had for around $50-70 - so really the 8100 X-Cess is a clear choice i reckon

Will be switching to Castrol 10w60w as will be doing more trackwork. As mentioned above Racepace and Trent uses this oil in there race cars

definately a good choice for track oil - i would ask them about the viscosity modifiers used in a 10w-60 though - Motuls 300V race oil is a 15W-50 - where the gap between hot and cold is a lot less - meaning its less likely to sheer in high temp applications (meaning break down from a 60w to maybe a 40w which could cause your motor to lean out at that heat)

if you're doing constant trackdays and changing out the oil each meet the Castrol is a great budget oil for multiple occasions - but if your going maybe once / twice a year and want to drive ten tenths / the full gusto / complete mongrel i would go with the Group V Motul 300V Competition 15w-50 or Motul Lemans 20w-60 and go gangbusters - note how the gap between weights is much less

Motuls new EsterCore range (replaces the previous range) is more geared specifically for limited used on a track- meaning it has been developed to lubricate significantly better during extreme use ie. trackdays but as a consequence its is a lot less ideal for streetable applications and normal drain intervals - i woul be changing it out either every track day if your car is a beast or every 3-4 mths / 5000Kms which ever comes first - the time the oil spends in the sump is the one to watch

i definately don't know better than tuners and engine builders - but just based on the science of oil - it never hurts to ask questions and to be intelligent about it - alot of the time people simply use what works without too much curiosity to find the best solution

Edited December 2, 2012 by squareznboxez

[Booki]

Doing some more reading, spewing I got my gtr too late, missed out on stocking up on some sougie. Was excellent value for such a high quality oil.

How does the new gulf western oil synx 6000 stack up to motul 8100 and the other group vi/v variants?

Also penrite hpr 5w40 is well priced, is it of similar quality to magnatec and the cheaper shell range?

[JGTC]

on pg 136

thought to post this as i inquired with Gulf Western regarding their Syn-X range as to what base stocks they use, this was the response i got;

Daniel,

We use Group III in Syn X 3000 and Group III / Group IV in Syn X 6000.

If manufacturing licensed blends in modern API grades, the engine tests are only performed in these base stocks.

Regards

Ben Vicary

Gulf Western Oil

to be claiming Syn-X 3000 is a Motul 8100 equivalent without any justification other than that it feels the same doesn't really tell the whole story about the performance differences of these 2 oils

I've also read reports the the Mobil 1 range is made from a different formulation from a 100% Group IV PAO base, to a Group III / IV blend - which is same as the Syn-X 6000 variant of Gulf Western

although in this day and age, oil's additive packs are just as important as the base-stocks, at the end of the day group IV PAO base stocks are smoother and more expensive to make, Group V being even more so - an oils manufacturer's certifications should also be taken into account

so most things you can grab from a brick-and-mortar shop are made from either straight Group III or blends of Group III / Group IV base stocks (Nulon, Castrol, Mobil, Penrite etc)

the only real Group IV formulated oils i can think of are Motul's 8100 range, Royal Purple and Redline

and Motul 300V and Amsoil being the only real Group V oils

hope this clears up any confusion, not trying to start any wars, just thought to share some info i've come across in my reading

[Booki]

Would you say the syn 6000 is comparable to the motul 8100 xcess?

[JGTC]

definately not, the syn-x 6000 is a group III / IV blend making it compariable to your likes of Castrol Edge / Nulon / Mobil1 / Penrite

Motul 8100 is a group IV / V blend which is amongst your Redline / Royal Purple / Amsoil / Liqui-Moly Synthoil

Edited December 2, 2012 by squareznboxez

[Booki]

What are the downsides of running such a oil? (Group iii/if blend) vs your group if/v?

Is it just the extended life you get out of the higher group?

[scotty nm35]

definately not, the syn-x 6000 is a group III / IV blend making it compariable to your likes of Castrol Edge / Nulon / Mobil1 / Penrite

Motul 8100 is a group IV / V blend which is amongst your Redline / Royal Purple / Amsoil / Liqui-Moly Synthoil

That's because Gulf Western have a different PAO group IV, Gulf 1, but it is too thick for my liking, perhaps for a track car...

http://www.gulfwestern.com.au/Petrol%20Oil_Gulf1.html

I still have a few bottles of GW's group V Sougi 6000 here, when it runs out I may have to find another ethanol suitable oil...

[Booki]

Gw's Synx6000 is too thick? Isn't it 5w-40?

[scotty nm35]

SynX 6000 is a 5w40 but at $120 for a 20L drum it's damn good value.

The Gulf 1 is the thick race oil. 10w60.

[bozodos]

The Edge 10w60 will be fine for an RB motor - I know of several that have had consistent thrashing and have held up fine - all data I can find on the internet says that the Edge 10w60 and 0w40 is a PAO Group 4 so unless you have proof that it's not Squareznboxez, maybe you should stop making such claims? There is a LOT of opinion based shit on BITOG as well, I've read enough crap on there too! I wouldn't get too hung up on viscosity anyway. Those two grades are also significantly more expensive than 5w30, 25w50 etc.

When i was researching what oil to use in my L76, I could not find any hard evidence about the Royal Purple HPS, so if you have some, could you please share? (discounting the discredited Street Commodores 'comparison')

Different motors I know, but if there were issues with running such "thick" oil in LS motors (when the factory fill is 5w30), it would have become apparent at some point over the last 10 years, and that's with a 10000km drain interval for most (granted they are N/A pushrod motors, but still machined to very fine tolerances).

[JGTC]

very happy to be proven wrong - i'm definately not trying to stir anyting up other than an intelligent debate and questions (which is what's going on i think); my deduction that all Castrol Edge variants use a Group III/IV blend comes from here;

re - Royal Purple's SN rated oils, this is a statement from one of their reps;

Registered: 08/12/12

Posts: 343

Loc: indiana I emailed RP this: i would like to know if the base stocks used in the API SN oils are hydrocracked group III oils or if they are primarily PAO group IV as many other high end synthetics.

Their reply was:

"Good morning Donny,"

"Although Royal Purple oil formulations are considered proprietary, I am authorized to share with you that we use a proprietary combination of premium synthetic Group IV(PAO) and Group V base stocks. The additive packages are also the very best available for each."

source: http://www.bobistheo...=2782625&page=1

re - Castrol Edge 10w-60 SN

definately not trying to bash Castrol - however being one of the largest manufactures of oil they are seemingly conservative in the information they disclose about their base stocks -

Castrol's 10w-60 came in 3 variants;

- Edge TMS Motorsport - manufactured in the EU - see bottom left of bottle

- Edge Professional (bottle on the right) - manufactured in the EU - see bottom mid - to the right of the BP symbol

- Castrol Edge 10w-60 SN - manufactured in Malaysia - see under the black line where it says 'this product is not suitable vehicles with diesel particulate filters' - this is the version available in Australia

the most definitive info i could find regarding Castrol's 10w-60 being a full group IV oil was here;

There is no such thing as the best oil.

The Castrol Edge range is formulated with different base oils to give the best results for the different engines each has been designed for.

You cannot judge the performance of an engine oil by its base stock.

Edge Sport 25W/50 is a mineral oil based on Grp II base stock, as it has been designed for older & larger 2-valve pushrod engines with roller rockers. Synthetics, like Grp IV base oils, do not build up a good film on roller rockers as well as a mineral oil, where valve train forces are very high.

Edge Sport 0W/40 & 10W/60 are synthetic Grp IV products and designed for engines with sliding valve trains or 4 valves or more per cylinder with roller rockers, where valve train loads are lighter than the 2 valve engines and where engine speeds are higher.

Edge Sport 5W/30 is a happy medium utilizing Grp III (HVI) base oils, which provide virtually all of the benefits of Grp IV but at a slightly lower cost.

Whatever works for a jet engine does NOT necessarily work for a car engine, even if it makes a good storyline.

source: http://datnet.org/to...trol-qa-thread/

Going off the CAS identifiers there is evidence from the Material Safety Datasheet (MSDS) to support that the 0w-40 and 10w-60 SN variant of Castrol Edge is a Hydro-treated group III blend formula

Castrol Edge 0w-40 A3/B4

http://msdspds.castr...-40%20A3_B4.pdf

Dec-1-ene, trimers,

hydrogenated

REACH #: 01-

2119493949-12

EC: 500-393-3

CAS: 157707-86-3 /

68037-01-4

50 - 100 Not classified. Asp. Tox. 1, H304 [1]

definition of 1-decene as per wikipedia;

The industrial processes used in the production of 1-decene are oligomerization of ethylene by the Ziegler Process or by the cracking of petrochemical waxes.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decene

Castrol Edge 10w-60 SN

MSDS

https://www.ils.co.n...SDS/3374732.pdf

Base oil - unspecified Varies 50 - 95

Phenol, dodecyl- 121158-58-5 0 - 0.1

Molybdenum polysulphide long chain alkyl dithiocarbamide complex Proprietary 0.1 - 1

Zinc alkyl dithiophosphate 68649-42-3 0.1 - 1

the chemical dodecyl is a hyrdo-carbon composite as per google;

https://www.google.c...iw=1760&bih=886

from my reading the edge range with the exception of the now superseded German-made Castrol Syntec 0w-30 (uses group IV only) use both Group III and IV in their formulations - also regarding the 'titanium' tag - most synthetics use Molybdenum which is more expensive to produce and as a result more robust;

Castrol took advantage of the "gimmick". Titanium sounds like it's strong. It sounds like it makes your engine tough as steel. Therefore it works for advertising.

From what I understand, it is a similar alternative to Molybdenum and cheaper at that; the difference in performance seems to be that Moly after continuous use bonds to the metal parts of your engine and forms a kind of 'invisible shield' to protect your parts. This is particularly with extended use (i.e. if you are using the new SN SOPUS products frequently every at every OCI). Titanium bonds WITH the metals on your engine while it is in use, but does not form any lasting 'shield'.

This is a chemistry fantasy description of course, but it seems this is what the additives do, at least from my reading on it.

source - http://www.bobistheo...&Number=2724737

fair bit of info (as well as hot-headed opinions) here;

http://www.bobistheo...=2813661&page=1

hopefully this provided some insight into the science of the oils we are all exposed to - i'm not trying to put down any oil or anyone i just thought to bring what i think are facts to light and am happy to be rebutted / contested / corrected for anyone else with facts

The Edge 10w60 will be fine for an RB motor - I know of several that have had consistent thrashing and have held up fine - all data I can find on the internet says that the Edge 10w60 and 0w40 is a PAO Group 4 so unless you have proof that it's not Squareznboxez, maybe you should stop making such claims? There is a LOT of opinion based shit on BITOG as well, I've read enough crap on there too! I wouldn't get too hung up on viscosity anyway. Those two grades are also significantly more expensive than 5w30, 25w50 etc.

When i was researching what oil to use in my L76, I could not find any hard evidence about the Royal Purple HPS, so if you have some, could you please share? (discounting the discredited Street Commodores 'comparison')

Different motors I know, but if there were issues with running such "thick" oil in LS motors (when the factory fill is 5w30), it would have become apparent at some point over the last 10 years, and that's with a 10000km drain interval for most (granted they are N/A pushrod motors, but still machined to very fine tolerances).

Edited December 3, 2012 by squareznboxez

[Booki]

Little off topic, but where do you fellas buy your motul oil from?

Repco no longer sell it

[JGTC]

not bad pricing for the 8100 variants @ JDMYard

http://www.jdmyard.c...h&keyword=motul

autobarn also sell it as well as Xtreme motorsports (car dealer on Parramatta rd)

Edited December 3, 2012 by squareznboxez

[Booki]

I'll have to check out auto barn, anybody else know some shops? Ones pref in Victoria

[BuuBox]

One of the issues of making blanket recommendations is that every engine will be different. A tighter engine will run happily on ‘thinner’ oil such as a 0W30, but if you’ve got an engine with loose clearances then it will reduce bearing life. The engine failure thread is littered with examples of RB engines spinning bearings. This is not scientific of course, but most examples seem to be running oil on the thinner side of the spectrum.

Therefore the best oil for the engine in question depends entirely on the engine in question. Where build specs or kilometres are unknown, it is (at least in my opinion) better to go with a ‘thicker’ oil.

One also has to factor in drain intervals, ambient temperatures the car experiences, and driving conditions. Those in Western Australia will require a different oil to those in Tasmania. Those driving predominately long stints on the freeway will require a different oil to those with a short run in traffic to work. 10W40 oils are a happy medium but aren’t appropriate for long drain intervals due to the large viscosity range. Perfect for the 5,000km drain intervals that most Skyline owners run though. On top of this, there are other aspects to consider such as additives missing from newer oils that may be necessary for the long term reliability of older engines (e.g. zinc and phosphorus).

In my case, based on location, driving conditions and ambient temperatures experienced when I drive the car, as well as the (apparent) build spec of my (Japanese built) engine, I find Nulon 15W50 is the most appropriate after some trial and error. An oil analysis would help confirm this beyond the oil pressure and oil temperature gauges (and listening to how the engine sounds) though.