The Goods On Oils

[Galois]

i emailed motul and royal purple asking about the price at the distributor and it was MORE than the price of the oils at autobarn/autopro/superheap etc..

disappointing

ps: score, ive been the first post on the last 3 pages, lol :$

Edited May 19, 2010 by Galois

[mosoto]

A case of GW shooting themselves in the foot. As Birds mentioned earlier, their lack of advertising & the GP's general attitude toward their lower end product did nothing to promote the high end group V product that we have recently come to respect, unfortunately all too late. The End is nigh, there is just not enough of us to float S6000 and keep it in production. We must face facts and buy up as much remaining stock for ourselves as possible

[KrazyKong]

Got some Redline 10w40 prices from Bursons today. 1L + 3.8L for $180. Yip the f**king ee. So it's even more expensive than 300V.

Mosoto, you're right about GW shooting itself in the foot. I mean my perception when from crap K-Mart company brand to holy crap, they make a killer product. Whose ever going to think of them favorably now? I'm not. In fact just like I was telling everyone I knew, about how great Sougi was, any further recommendations for their products will end there. Back to the thinking they are a cheapass K-Mart company again, and find a proper company who won't leave us in the lurch.

At this point it's looking like it's either going to be Motul 8100 or Royal Purple. The jump in price for 300V and Redline is insane.

Still hoping Birds will find out some good information today. Andrew may have said it's a done deal, but things can be turned around too.

[Galois]

At this point it's looking like it's either going to be Motul 8100 or Royal Purple. The jump in price for 300V and Redline is insane.

agreed. redline is more renowned as an oil for racing from what i've read, and overkill for even fairly modified skylines.

who should we email to express our discontent? the emails/letters/calls will probably just go down as statistics, but it might make gw more likely to try a sougi type oil again in a couple of years

[Birds]

Sorry guys, don't have much update yet, Andrew and the national sales manager have been out all day (tried to get hold of them this morning). I can assure you I'm as vexed, if not more about the loss of Sougi - this product was like a child to me and I've been using it for much longer than all of you lol. What sucks is you got a taste of the goodness and then taken away just as quickly

Atleast if you buy up on it you'll have enough for a few changes before you need to start forking out for another brand.

http://www.gulfwestern.com.au/Contact%20Us.html

Use that email if you're sending an email, and address it to whom it may concern or management - it'll find its way / get forwarded on.

But IMO you are better to write a letter - as Kong said this has more impact and can't be deleted with the click of a mouse.

I've never agreed with the way GW market their packaged oil, and I agree with Kong completely - allowing XMP to be sold as a loss leader in auto stores has been very damaging for the company image IMO - countless times I've had to explain to automotive workshops that this oil is sold at a loss by auto stores to get customers in, and that the product is actually decent (on par with Castrol GTX) when used in the application it is designed for (older/worn engines calling for a 20w50, or running in a rebuilt engine). Then to axe Sougi, an oil which has the potential to alter someone's previous perception of a brand...ridiculous. As enthusiasts, you guys have family members you buy oil for, you get to know and talk to mechanics, you spread more word of mouth than any other end consumer when you come across a good product - snubbing you is a big mistake IMO. Alas I'm just a distributor...with a degree in marketing lol

Will post back when I have more info.

[KrazyKong]

agreed. redline is more renowned as an oil for racing from what i've read, and overkill for even fairly modified skylines.

who should we email to express our discontent? the emails/letters/calls will probably just go down as statistics, but it might make gw more likely to try a sougi type oil again in a couple of years

Yeah I think Redline is certainly overkill for a fairly stock Skyline.

Sadly, at least in my perception there's a gap between quality of oils. You have Motul/Redline up the top of the spectrum, Sougi sitting just under them, then there's a dropoff to the Mobil 1s, Castrol Edge, Penrites & Nulons. I might make a chart at some point to find out exactly what group each oil is. Who knows there might be a hidden gem in there akin to Sougi.

I called GW today to inquire if they sold 20L bottles of Sougi. I know it states in their catalog they do, but it turns out they don't.

The guy I spoke with (can't remember his name), but he was the first guy to answer the phone on their 1-800 number, mentioned a few things to me.

Ben Vicary I was told is the General Manager of GW. Andrew who we have referred to is his brother and also one of the managers. The guy I spoke with said more certainly it was worth sending emails, calls and letters to Ben. The Vicary family run GW Australia, so I'm not sure if the decisions stop with them, or if there is also a Board of Directors.

Both can be reached at [email protected]

Also Andrew at [email protected]

and quite possibly Ben at [email protected]

I do think good old fashioned snail mail is still more effective. I was several years ago a Customer Service manager for a large computer firm. Phone calls and emails can easily be forgotten about or "ignored". A letter is tangible. It exists and will sit on someones desk. Addressing a letter to the GM of a company almost guarantees you will get a response too. It's alot harder to ignore a letter than it is a phone call or email. It's possible other people in the company will see this letter too. Plus there's the factor of taking the time to write a letter (or print one off), mailing it etc., that comes across in a very favourable light. It means you took the time to express your concerns, and thus it's very possible they will reciprocate.

Now getting back to the phone call. The guy said he had heard something about Sougi, but nothing in any concrete form. That doesn't mean much really as if he's simply the guy answering the phone, he's most likely not privy to the manager meetings or discussions. But he also mentioned something that caught my ear. Rather than Sougi being canceled altogether, it might be re-incarnated into a new product to abide by new standards and so forth. This did sound like some promising news, but seeing as how this hasn't come from either Ben or Andrew, we're going to have to take it with a grain of salt. Anyway the main thing was he never at any point said yes Sougi is being discontinued. Rather he said he's heard a few things about it, but nothing was determined or set in stone. I know Andrew has however stated in an email SOugi is being canned, so it would be wise to take Andrews comments at this point as what's really going on.

If they come up with an updated product and call it Tofu, I'll still buy it. As long as it's 10w40 and based on the same ester formulation as Sougi I'll be happy. It's not the name I care about, rather the product itself and how my car runs on it.

Edited May 19, 2010 by KrazyKong

[iamhe77]

Got some Redline 10w40 prices from Bursons today. 1L + 3.8L for $180. Yip the f**king ee. So it's even more expensive than 300V.

At this point it's looking like it's either going to be Motul 8100 or Royal Purple. The jump in price for 300V and Redline is insane.

Still hoping Birds will find out some good information today. Andrew may have said it's a done deal, but things can be turned around too.

Would be great if they reconsider, was just hunting for information from GW before putting it in my car for the first time.

Damn, guess I will be sticking with Redline.

Oh, and for a more "reasonable" price on Redline, speak to Henry at PerformanceLub.

Nice guy, great service and good pricing... forget Bursons lol

[KrazyKong]

Sorry guys, don't have much update yet, Andrew and the national sales manager have been out all day (tried to get hold of them this morning). I can assure you I'm as vexed, if not more about the loss of Sougi - this product was like a child to me and I've been using it for much longer than all of you lol. What sucks is you got a taste of the goodness and then taken away just as quickly

Atleast if you buy up on it you'll have enough for a few changes before you need to start forking out for another brand.

http://www.gulfwestern.com.au/Contact%20Us.html

Use that email if you're sending an email, and address it to whom it may concern or management - it'll find its way / get forwarded on.

But IMO you are better to write a letter - as Kong said this has more impact and can't be deleted with the click of a mouse.

I've never agreed with the way GW market their packaged oil, and I agree with Kong completely - allowing XMP to be sold as a loss leader in auto stores has been very damaging for the company image IMO - countless times I've had to explain to automotive workshops that this oil is sold at a loss by auto stores to get customers in, and that the product is actually decent (on par with Castrol GTX) when used in the application it is designed for (older/worn engines calling for a 20w50, or running in a rebuilt engine). Then to axe Sougi, an oil which has the potential to alter someone's previous perception of a brand...ridiculous. As enthusiasts, you guys have family members you buy oil for, you get to know and talk to mechanics, you spread more word of mouth than any other end consumer when you come across a good product - snubbing you is a big mistake IMO. Alas I'm just a distributor...with a degree in marketing lol

Will post back when I have more info.

Birds I just saw your reply after I had posted my long one lol. Couldn't agree more. If you do end up sending an email, follow it up with a proper letter. An email and phone call will not achieve anything when it comes to concerns or complaints. A physical letter is the most effective way to convey ones concerns.

Absolutely Birds, the XMP thing for $12 is mind boggling. Great if you want to actually use that oil, but dreadful when it comes to perception. Birds, GW need to hire you as a promoter. Seriously they need to get their retail act together. Heck I could even do a good job at turning things around and getting their products onto store shelves.

The problem here isn't the product, but how it's not even marketed. No wonder Castrol and Mobil sell so much oil. It's everywhere, has fancy packaging, TV ads etc. Doesn't mean it's any good, but the marketing side of things is working that's for sure.

Sougi is a perception changer. It worked for me and it has for others. It's the kind of product that made me stop thinking of GW as a company who bought cheapass oil from China and repackaged it as "Australian Made", to one who actually formulated their own products, and one I've spent a lot of time in recommending to others.

If GW do kill off Sougi, you can guarantee my feelings and perceptions will also change about them. Thus my recommending them will also cease. Then GW again becomes a cheapass company selling $12 bottles of oil.

Edited May 19, 2010 by KrazyKong

[Galois]

kong, we kind of know the order:

Group V: sougi, redline, 300V chrono

Group IV-V: penrite sin

Group IV: 8100, royal purple

Group III: nulon, bla bla bla

now, where do Mobil 1, Castrol Edge, Penrite fit in there?

the only suitable hot weight for mobil 1 is the 0w40 (which costs $95 for 5L from supercheap) which means two things: one, the cold viscosity is very low which makes some of us a little uncomfortable, and secondly it usually takes more additives to get further difference between hot and cold ratings, which may or may not be a bad thing.

castrol edge is the same deal. only 0w40, but it's only $68, pretty close to nulon price.

Penrite HPR doesn't have a 40 hot viscosity. the sin only has a 5w40, like motul, and I couldn't find a price for it. it is a mix of synthetic and ester compounds, so in group IV-V.

how do we know if an oil is grade 3 or 4? nulon is grade 3 but it says fully synthetic :S

EDIT:

just googling some stuff came across this article

http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

saying that in the late 90s castrol started the use of the word synthetic for non-synthetic oils, ie: as a marketing tool; much like nulon has been caught out doing (among the rest of them). mobil lost a court case against castrol and since then synthetic hasn't meant anything for the consumer.

Edited May 19, 2010 by Galois

[KrazyKong]

Straying off the topic of Sougi for a second, I got this email reply from Link International who are the Motul distributors in Australia.

Motul produce 8100 X-cess which is a 5W-40 and is still quite suitable for use in Skylines and such – we use it in our R34 GT-R. The original Nissan recommendation for the R32 GT-R was for Genuine Nissan Turbo X 7.5W-30 engine oil. Obviously this would change as the engine wears with high mileage, and would differ slightly model to model. We still recommend 8100 X-cess 5W-40 in most applications. Oil weights also are determined by operational conditions such as climate and vehicle use. You wouldn’t, for instance use a 15W-50 in an artic climate, just as you wouldn’t use a 0W-30 in a car built in the 70’s, as the engine is designed with large tolerances for thicker viscosity oil. We are currently investigating the possibility of 10W-40 oil for the 8100 range.

The part I got excited about was hearing they might just produce a 10w40 8100 oil, and hopefully in a 5L bottle.

That's a good post Galois. We need to base an oil not on what it calls itself, but what it's made of. That way we'll be able to determine if it's a proper genuine synthetic oil or not.

Edited May 19, 2010 by KrazyKong

[BASHO]

How stupid can gormless wetbum be ?

Canning a product that they have never promoted to thier most likely consumer group-or anyone else due to, 'lack of sales'-- friken unreal.

Can I get a job in promotions there please , I love getting paid for SFA.

Perhaps noteworthy is the ease and cost effectiveness with which performance people can be reached via thier forums.

What friken planet are these goons from ?

Could the be from the same planet that gave us bundled low docs loans ?

AAAAAAAAHH then thats ok then.

GORMLESS WETBUM , CORPORATE TOSSERS OF THE YEAR --YFI

Edited May 19, 2010 by BASHO

[Birds]

The problem here isn't the product, but how it's not even marketed. No wonder Castrol and Mobil sell so much oil. It's everywhere, has fancy packaging, TV ads etc. Doesn't mean it's any good, but the marketing side of things is working that's for sure.

How stupid can gormless wetbum be ?

Canning a product that they have never promoted to thier most likely consumer group-or anyone else due to, 'lack of sales'-- friken unreal.

Can I get a job in promotions there please , I love getting paid for SFA.

Perhaps noteworthy is the ease and cost effectiveness with which performance people can be reached via thier forums.

What friken planet are these goons from ?

Could the be from the same planet that gave us bundled low docs loans ?

AAAAAAAAHH then thats ok then.

GORMLESS WETBUM , CORPORATE TOSSERS OF THE YEAR --YFI

In GW's defence (and keep in mind we don't know the full story of this yet so let's not go jumping to conclusions just yet), they are a very small company compared to the multi-nationals like Mobil Motul - despite being one of the highest volume sellers of oil in Australia (if not the highest). Their foundations are in farming, agriculture and mining - that's where they sell the most oil and that is where, if anywhere, any marketing efforts are going to be devoted towards. Automotive industry was only entered about 10 years ago and is still growing. They spend very little on marketing overall let alone for a boutique product like Sougi, because all the money they make gets put back into the company to keep their oil prices down. It's the reason why you can (well could) buy Sougi for $60 instead of the $100-120 it should be sold for. When I visited the GW head office, all the execs were driving around in XR8 Falcons...not Benzes and Beamers like you'd see management from the multi-nationals driving around in. True blue Aussie company...

On the topic of promoting, in any oil company's eyes, a sales rep's time is better devoted towards converting a mechanic to using 205L/month than an end user with 5L of packaged oil - reality of business.

Yeah it sucks that we could lose our favourite oil product, but a company isn't going to keep a product going just because of a few fans if it's not viable to do so. I deal with Coles Supermarkets on a regular basis (we also distribute food products) and I have seen many products axed despite huge customer bases/fans. In the end it's a business decision and like it or hate it, that's just business.

[KrazyKong]

Interesting call on the fuel economy - I too would like to see your number crunching. Technically the lower viscosity will put less stress on engine internals and ancillaries (like the oil pump itself), thereby reducing rolling mass and increasing your fuel economy along with power/torque. This is one of many reasons why an engine will not perform as well when cold as it does when warmed up: the oil is alot thicker when cold. So it's not that Sougi gives you better fuel economy or power so to speak, but more that it doesn't rob as much as thicker viscosity oils.

I finally got around to crunching some numbers tonight and wow the results were pretty amazing. I don't just have better gas mileage, I've had a phenomenal increase in gas mileage.

For the past year I've been getting around 6.8kms per litre. What I would do is fill the tank up, reset the trip meter and drive until my next fill up. Then fill it up again, and write down how many kms I've done, and how many litres I put in the tank. 6.8kms was the average I was getting. Sometimes 6.9 or others 6.7, but never above 7. (NOTE: I'm not quite sure how to get the Litres used per 100kms equation happening. The one I'm using instead, is simply a way to see how many kms you get per litre.)

Tonight after seeing the numbers, I got... 9.24kms per litre! Wow, that's a huge increase in fuel economy. To put this in perspective, I did 341.7kms using 36.97L of BP Ultimate 98. A couple of weeks ago, to do 341.7kms I would have been filling up with... 49L of BP Ultimate. That's as 12L difference at $1.45 per litre. Another note, I got a whole year of gas receipts sitting in a box near my desk so I know what my car was doing previously pretty well.

Now how did I achieve this. It could be a number of factors here. All in the space of a few days I had my outer tie rod ends replaced, plus a front alignment. Had my automatic transmission fluid changed (used GW Systrans) plus a new filter and cork gasket. Then had a new split 3" dump + front pipe installed, and had my existing 3" high flow cat re-welded to new flanges. Installed a new NGK OEM O2 sensor which I got from Kudos Motor Sports. Installed a brand new set of Bosch Platinum spark plugs at the pregap of 1.1. Then replaced the rocker cover gaskets as well with brand new ones. I also did a radiator flush a few times, and put some new but cheap coolant in. Somewhere in here, I did an oil change using Sougi and a Drift oil filter (has a magnet in it). I think that about covers it. Now this all happened in a span of 3-4 days.

So what was the cause of my vast improvement in gas mileage? A combination of some of those things, maybe just a few, or all of them. At each point when this work was being done either by myself of the places I was going to, I felt the improvement. I felt the gears shifting nicer with the new ATF in. The car went onto boost quicker after the new pipes put in. The car was quieter, smoother and felt more powerful after the oil change. Even starting the car I noticed a difference which one could put down to the new plugs.

So if grouping all of those things together, then that's your answer as to how I got better fuel economy. But if you look a little deeper, then it probably has to be just a few things.

Could it be -

A) The new O2 sensor?

B) The better breathing exhaust system?

C) The new Bosch Platinum spark plugs?

D) The new rocker cover gaskets?

E) The new ATF in the transmission?

F) The new oil in the engine with a hopefully better oil filter than the standard Ryco ones.

Looking at those options, I'd have to say that obviously the O2 sensor is helping, but from what I've heard it's not even used once you put your foot down, so it's more for idling and low revs right?

My best guess is it's the new spark plugs, ATF or oil. Or simply all of those combined with the new O2 sensor and 3" pipes.

I'm quite pleased with the results as I'm seeing them immediately at the pump. I know Sougi played it's part in the fuel economy. The car feels so much better since I've started using it. Oh the cruel world to then take our Sougi away. It's enough to make me all angry again lol

Edited May 19, 2010 by KrazyKong

[Galois]

hey kong,

it's no doubt a combination. eg: the new front/dump pipe gives you more power, so your foot isn't as low on the throttle for the same acceleration, which means better fuel economy.

to get L/100km. ok, pretend I used 50L to get 400km (which is pretty close to my average)

then, i put into the calculator 50/400 *100 (50 divided by 400 times 100). order does not matter.

this gives 12.5, ie: 12.5L/100km, not too shabby for a turbo skyline.

that formula again:

fuel used/kilometres travelled * 100

i too look forward to more info from birds, assuming he can get it and post it.

glad to see your improvement's kong, have followed many of your posts so glad it has all worked out. you're going down the same line as me lol, i have a stockish r34 gtt, so looking at putting a whole new exhaust in (front, dump. high flow cat, 4-4.5" tip) its got a 4.5" tip of unknown brand lol.

anyways, great result

[Birds]

Haha calm down Kong you're tl;dr-ing all over the place

To calculate L/100km, use litres filled up with divided by the km travelled then multiply that by 100.

Your fuel economy increase is no doubt a combination of those things but mostly the O2 sensor...it makes a huge difference changing this sensor even if you thrash your car all the time. Most fuel gets wasted idling at traffic lights and that's where you want the O2 sensor to be working. Exhaust next on the list. Sougi will have made a small difference but indirectly by making revs smoother and reducing stress on engine internals.

[KrazyKong]

Yeah I know Birds I'm all over the place. Facing the day with the thought of losing my Sougi didn't bring a smile to my face. You have any more info on that btw?

Thanks guys for the equations for working out L/100km. This last fillup, I got 10.8L per 100km. And going on the average for the past year, it was 14.33L per 100km.

Ah ok Birds, so the O2 sensor could be a big factor here. I know the Sougi helps in the sense of reducing the stress of the engine pushing an inferior oil, but it isn't just the fuel economy that's been improved. The engine noise is lower, the lifter tapping noises I heard a few weeks ago are gone. The oil pressure seems to be more stable and less high like the previous Penrite garbage.

Oh one thing I forget to add in the above list of work the car has had over the past 2 weeks was that I also took apart the throttle body and cleaned with some Nulon Throttle Body & Carby cleaner. Also gave the AAC valve a nice squirt, but didn't take it off all the way, so couldn't really get in there and give it a complete clean.

Birds the places I drive, I really don't spend much time at traffic lights. And for the previous year of bad fuel economy it's been freeway driving, 20min drives, long return trips to Brisbane and back etc. So it's been a mixture. I never ever saw an improvement from freeway driving to driving around town etc. I just kept getting under 7kms per litre no matter how I drove the car.

It's a nice feeling to see the extra effort and work I've done on the car paying off. For each step of the way I've probably been over cautious and bugged alot of folk on here with lots of questions lol. But it's paid off. Galois you can't go wrong if you take it slow and do it properly. The end results are speaking for themselves. The car has alot more power, better response, sounds better and has increase fuel economy. All I need is a hot bikini babe in the passenger seat and I'd have to say things were near perfect

Only things left for the car once I finish off the interior with some sound proofing are to mount the FMIC finally, then see whether or not I need a SAFC. At that point I would have completed the Stage 1 mods to my car.

[Birds]

Lifters would be less noisy because oil is actually getting inside them and staying there now that you're using the correct viscosity

If you do alot of cruising the O2 sensor change will be a big help there too...long trips you'll spend alot of time in top gear just cruising along when the O2 sensor is needed most - this is most likely why you were getting "around town" fuel economy when driving outside of town...

I give my cat alot of stick and even with that changing the O2 sensor netted me an extra 100km per fillup thereabouts...

[Galois]

geez really? im gonna have to look into this o2 sensor stuff...

[KrazyKong]

Lifters would be less noisy because oil is actually getting inside them and staying there now that you're using the correct viscosity

If you do alot of cruising the O2 sensor change will be a big help there too...long trips you'll spend alot of time in top gear just cruising along when the O2 sensor is needed most - this is most likely why you were getting "around town" fuel economy when driving outside of town...

I give my cat alot of stick and even with that changing the O2 sensor netted me an extra 100km per fillup thereabouts...

I could hear the noisy lifters more often when the engine was hot. This may simply mean I wasn't paying attention however until after I had driven where I needed to go. But I do know they were tapping for awhile when the engine was hot.

Still I think it's another sign to not trust Penrite HPR10. It was indeed a bad oil to use in my car. It's supposed to be 10w50 but it's cold weight seemed heavier than a 20w oil. The oil pressure was above 6 when cold too, so I had to really baby it until the oil had warmed up properly. The hot weight seemed ok pressure wise, but then I would get lifter noises. Though I don't recall them being there when I first did the change, so it's possible the oil sheared or broke down very quickly.

This is what worries me. My experience with Penrite and then with Sougi -- both cold weights are listed as 10w, but Sougi is clearly a better 10w. So whatever comes next after Sougi, I just want to be sure I will find an oil that will work in my car as great as it is now.

The larger question is do oil weights = oil weights from differing makes and brands?

Edited May 20, 2010 by KrazyKong

[Birds]

Oil weights strictly speaking should not differ from brand to brand, as the test for viscosity is rate of flow through a specific area size at a given temperature - this is dictated by the Society of Automotive Engineers, but yes, as it is left to the manufacturer to meet these standards...there is room for both error and intentional error. Penrite HPR, could be closer to 15w50, but the same could be said for Sougi being a 5w (the difference between 10w and 5w is somewhat small). Or it can simply be a matter of Sougi performing better at its cold weight than Penrite at its cold weight, even if the weights are the same...this latter explanation is more likely.

geez really? im gonna have to look into this o2 sensor stuff...

Should be a mandatory change every 60,000km or so mate. Not many people know about them and they wear out fast particularly on turbocharged vehicles because exhaust temperatures are consistently very high.