The Goods On Oils

[Birds]

I'd take the Motul over the Nulon. But the reason Motul is the favourite around here is because of super duper 300V mostly.

[Galois]

Yeah you could mix them and use them in an older car / a car you don't really care about - it will work okay but it's not going to be optimal protection particularly if they are all different grades. Additives will have negative effects on each other, but moreso because there's not enough of one oil for each oil's additives to do their job properly. To be honest I'd only ever mix two oils together at the most, and temporarily - for example, if your car was low on oil and you had to stop by the servo to top it up.

Coolant is the one you really don't want to be mixing

what exactly reacts with the coolant, isn't is mostly ethylene glycol?

cheers mate, yeah its an old camry but i'll only mix as little as possible. i get what you're saying tho, the agents are effectively being diluted by adding different oils.

how'd the m5000 going btw?

TUF if you're going to choose between the 4100 and Nulon, go the 4100. I think it's currently on sale right now at Ricebarn for the next few days.

However if you want a better oil and a true fully synthetic oil (the nulon is not a fully synthetic despite their packaging claims) locate some Gulf Western Sougi S6000. Find a distributor in your area and you'll be able to get 5L for $60 or thereabouts. This oil is group 5 and on par with some of the best around (300V) for half the price.

or go the sougi m5000, a mix of grade III and V oils and only $30

[Birds]

I think the anti-freeze and rust inhibitor solutions react. I'm no coolant expert but I've heard mixing coolants basically screws with the chemical properties and is worse than just using water as coolant...it can actually rust out your components like water pump etc.

It's not so much the dilution of the additives...it's that you're only putting 500ml worth of that additive in an engine because there's only 500ml of that oil in there...there's not enough there for the additive to do its job properly. But yes it will dilute them too I think, and certain high end oils may not mix well. Might be safe to stick with mineral-mineral, semi-semi and full-full too.

M5000 still feels good...gonna keep running it for now.

Has anyone found retail prices for M5000 yet? By my sums it's only worth me selling it if I sell it for $40, bout 2/3 price of S6000.

[Galois]

a place up here told me their selling it for 30, that might be without gst tho.

what i meant with concentration is in terms of cleaning or any type of reaction concentration is the most important driver. so adding 500ml of sougi to some mineral crap will mean that there is barely any of the sougi agents in there doing their job, i think we meant the same thing.

glad to hear the m5000 is going ok

Edited June 3, 2010 by Galois

[siksII]

I don't think a UOA is going to tell me what oil will run better in my car. All it will do is tell me what trace elements, minerals and other things are in the oil.

Birds, you're right 100% here. Real world usage is what counts. Driving the car, hearing it, feeling how it performs is enough for me to say X product is working very well in my car. Price also matters too for alot of us. We all want to use the best, but I know I'm not the only one who can afford the "best". And then the term "best" is often a subjective thing anyway. So we make our decisions based on price and what we perceive to be the best product for that price.

UOA will tell you what will run better in your car since you can track how much your engine wears with different types of oil and different oil change intervals. I dont believe hearing and feeling it is a good indication since this can be heavily influenced by perception rather than fact.

I know people change oil and then think somehow their car is running differently but no offence, I think this is mostly placebo. Im sure sometimes there is a difference and I would put this down to changes in viscosity.

I have been using 8100 but will start using group V oils from now on since I want better protection. This is the first time I have heard of Sougi - wish I had earlier since I would be interested to try it out, I was thinking of using 300v from now on since its the easiest group V for me to get and it seems you never hear complaints about it from anyone with a Nissan.

[Galois]

I know people change oil and then think somehow their car is running differently but no offence, I think this is mostly placebo. Im sure sometimes there is a difference and I would put this down to changes in viscosity.

I have been using 8100 but will start using group V oils from now on since I want better protection. This is the first time I have heard of Sougi - wish I had earlier since I would be interested to try it out, I was thinking of using 300v from now on since its the easiest group V for me to get and it seems you never hear complaints about it from anyone with a Nissan.

lol try magnatec

they're still selling sougi if you're keen, can save you some money in the near-ish future at least

[Birds]

Perception is a big part of it IMO. Yes placebo effect can be present with any change or modification to the norm, but you can also change to other oils and have the feeling that it is worse. You wouldn't continue using an oil that makes your engine feel rough as shit despite good results on a UOA would you? UOA never tells the full story of an oil, there's too many variables involved that a UOA can't measure.

Perhaps try a Group V and see if you notice a difference, and whether this is placebo or not? Sougi is pretty easily attainable from a GW distributor but 300V is on much the same level anyway so no harm in using that. I've switched

Just realised the V in 300V is most likely a reference to Group V lol. How stupid of me

[stagman]

TUF if you're going to choose between the 4100 and Nulon, go the 4100. I think it's currently on sale right now at Ricebarn for the next few days.

However if you want a better oil and a true fully synthetic oil (the nulon is not a fully synthetic despite their packaging claims) locate some Gulf Western Sougi S6000. Find a distributor in your area and you'll be able to get 5L for $60 or thereabouts. This oil is group 5 and on par with some of the best around (300V) for half the price.

Just ordered four 5L Bottles of the s6000. According to the GW rep I spoke to, its definitely being replaced by a 10W-60 oil. Apparently the warehouse in Sydney has a whole heap of bottles left.

[TUF250]

ok thanks for the info guys, i did see the 300v but i sought of thought for the type of driving mine does (no track work only mild daily duties) it might be overkill combined with the fact that i change it every 5000 with a quality drift filter.

are the nulon and motul both group3s?

[Galois]

III/IV mixes i think.

you bring up a good point, changing filters every 5000km, is it necessary. there are several posts, even in this thread, stating that the filter takes 4-5k to start effectively filtering, then we all change them at 5k.

thoughts? i get how it works, like all good filters it uses the substance it filters out of the liquid to provide less gaps for the solid particles to move through, making filtering better. but does this really take 4-5k?

[siksII]

lol try magnatec

they're still selling sougi if you're keen, can save you some money in the near-ish future at least

Speaking in general here, not attacking you Galois...

I know Magnatec seems to be the oil of choice for people to quote as crap but this is how I see it.. Magnatec is reported to be a group III oil, so is Motul 4100 which seems the cheap oil of choice for many on this forum. I see 4100 is is just overpriced Magnatec.

Im not saying 4100 is not good enough but I would say you may as well be using Magnatec and unless you have UOAs to prove it, no one has a basis to say 4100 is much better.

Perception is a big part of it IMO. Yes placebo effect can be present with any change or modification to the norm, but you can also change to other oils and have the feeling that it is worse. You wouldn't continue using an oil that makes your engine feel rough as shit despite good results on a UOA would you? UOA never tells the full story of an oil, there's too many variables involved that a UOA can't measure.

Perhaps try a Group V and see if you notice a difference, and whether this is placebo or not? Sougi is pretty easily attainable from a GW distributor but 300V is on much the same level anyway so no harm in using that. I've switched

Just realised the V in 300V is most likely a reference to Group V lol. How stupid of me

Im only changing to a better oil since UOA has shown that the 8100 is probably not the best for my use. 2/3 UOAs that i have done on it show that is has lost a lot of its viscosity, evidence of shearing.

If I change to 300v the car might run different, but you could put this down to the 8100 being on the light end of a 40 weight and the 300v being on the thick end of 40 weight.

Placebo effect is a big deal with anything car related for sure. As you say no one would use an oil that makes the car feel rough, but that brings me back to placebo - is the car really running rougher? I bet most who change to a more expensive oil of the same viscosity will say their car runs smoother meanwhile most would say the car doesnt run as good when they change to a cheaper oil, would you agree?

[Galois]

4100 may be great, actually a fair few people on here use it because they feel fully synth in unnecessary. magnatec is supposed to stick to engine walls like a "magnet", which is no doubt very good in a normal car but for a turbocharged skyline it is not ideal.

there is much more to an oil than its grade, it's weight and it's cleaning and lubrication properties are all controlled by the additives the company puts in. thats why oils of the same grade and weight are not the same, they can actually be very different.

most people here have no option than to go by the feel of a vehicle. and mine was loud, raspy and slower on magnatec than on nulon.

one thing each driver knows is the sound of their own car. i know there was a difference with magnatec, i could hear it, a certain sound that wasn't there before and hasn't been there since. thats all a bit romantic lol

on the UOA front, i just have to ask how long you ran each oil for and on how many changes. if i ran some bad oil for 2 years, then ran sougi and got it tested it'd give a different result to if i ran sougi for 2 years then had the latest sougi tested. how does history get controlled? is the engine flushed before each test? just been wondering

[Birds]

Just ordered four 5L Bottles of the s6000. According to the GW rep I spoke to, its definitely being replaced by a 10W-60 oil. Apparently the warehouse in Sydney has a whole heap of bottles left.

The 10w60 already exists and is Gulf 1. They do have a whole heap of bottles left, and it is not as definite as it once was. The reps do not know the exact details of it...as far as the managers at GW are concerned, their decision to scrap Sougi is still under review.

I bet most who change to a more expensive oil of the same viscosity will say their car runs smoother meanwhile most would say the car doesnt run as good when they change to a cheaper oil, would you agree?

Yes cost of a product will influence the placebo effect, but case in point, many people here have made the switch to Sougi S6000 which is half the price of Motul 300V and reported it to be exactly the same in terms of feel. I don't think you're giving enthusiasts enough credit...we're not bimbos driving a car from A-B, we get a paranoia about our vehicles if we hear the slightest sound go amiss that wasn't there before...if our engines miss a beat we know about it. And in the end, we're the ones who have to drive the car...not the UOA test. It would take a pretty expensive batch of oil and some severe post purchase dissonance to make me want to swear by an expensive oil that didn't make much difference to the stuff I've been using.

on the UOA front, i just have to ask how long you ran each oil for and on how many changes. if i ran some bad oil for 2 years, then ran sougi and got it tested it'd give a different result to if i ran sougi for 2 years then had the latest sougi tested. how does history get controlled? is the engine flushed before each test? just been wondering

One of many variables that UOA cannot account for. They are only useful for individual applications, and even then, very skewed results and very difficult to control extraneous variables.

[Moodles2]

Visited the SA GW distributor at Para Hills today and picked up 4x 5L bottles of S 6000, still have 25 bottles left there. Interested to see how it goes (been using Motul 8100) when I do a complete flush in the coming months (the whole 10litres out of the oil cooler + lines etc)

[Birds]

Let us know mate

Good to hear you've got a healthy supply of it! Though I wouldn't be revealing that if I were you cause all 25 of those bottles could be yours

[central coast person]

If you want THE best engine oil get Redline 10w40. It is a perfect weight, is extreamly good in cleaning engines, frees your engine up, sticky as ..... hehh and also can quieten noise engine bearings in 5min (seen it work).

Obiously the price is painful and you have too get 2 bottles which will cost about $300 all up, but its worth it in the long run knowing your car is going too live a long life.

[siksII]

4100 may be great, actually a fair few people on here use it because they feel fully synth in unnecessary. magnatec is supposed to stick to engine walls like a "magnet", which is no doubt very good in a normal car but for a turbocharged skyline it is not ideal.

there is much more to an oil than its grade, it's weight and it's cleaning and lubrication properties are all controlled by the additives the company puts in. thats why oils of the same grade and weight are not the same, they can actually be very different.

most people here have no option than to go by the feel of a vehicle. and mine was loud, raspy and slower on magnatec than on nulon.

one thing each driver knows is the sound of their own car. i know there was a difference with magnatec, i could hear it, a certain sound that wasn't there before and hasn't been there since. thats all a bit romantic lol

on the UOA front, i just have to ask how long you ran each oil for and on how many changes. if i ran some bad oil for 2 years, then ran sougi and got it tested it'd give a different result to if i ran sougi for 2 years then had the latest sougi tested. how does history get controlled? is the engine flushed before each test? just been wondering

The stuff that makes Magnatec magnetic is the best thing about it. Synthetic esters are polar, ie magnetic, group V oils like 300v and redline are made from a base of synthetic esters, Magnatec is a group III mineral oil with some small amount of ester added in to substantiate its marketing. You could call 300v or any group V super magnatec in terms of being magnetic since they are based on magnetic synthetic esters!

In terms of UOA - there is heaps of UOA posted around the net and when people change oil from one type to another the wear recorded can usually changes during that first new interval so I would say that real life examples go against your two year example. ie. both cases would show similar wear assuming a decent interval, say 5000kms. The UOA does not seem to really show what happened previously, only what happened in the last period since probably 90%+ of the oil is flushed out of the system when you do a change.

RE the UOA process...When you sample the oil you keep the car running for a while so the oil is mixed but other than that you can take it at any time and you dont do a flush or anything out of the ordinary.

The point of it is not just to see the trace elements and what/how much additives are in an oil, its to track how much your engine is wearing and the condition of the oil at that time. You can then correlate the three and therefore whenever you decide to do it for whatever reason, it will give you a good idea of how much wear has happened and what condition the oil is in.

My example. I only started doing it recently, but have taken three samples of the same oil. First was after 5000kms, second was after 4200kms, 3rd was after 2200kms (which I have not changed yet) but the 3rd one at 2200km/3months already shows that the oil is not doing well and I would be best to change it now. I know this since I can compare with my older analysis and see the wear rates plus how much the oil has thinned out (which it has in a short period). So rather than leaving it in for anther 3 months or 2700kms and allowing higher than normal wear to occur in that time, I know to change now and have wear rates go back to normal.

You can also get an indication of your air filter's condition since poor filtering lets in silicon (sand) from the atmosphere which mixes with the oil and causes damage to your internals. I have been lazy changing it so have recorded higher and higher readings of silicon over the last 3 changes. Unless the silicon content in the next oil I use is much different, I am expecting the silicon reading to go back to normal since I will change the air filter at the same time as the oil.

When I change my oil next I will take a sample at 5000kms as usual or after some hard use and I hope to see reduced wear due to using a better oil for my purposes.

[KrazyKong]

I certainly haven't experienced a placebo affect. I know what oil I've put in previously, how the car ran, how it felt different than the original unknown oil in before that. I knew right away the Penrite HPR10 I used for my first oil change was the wrong stuff despite others saying "should" be ok. It wasn't, but I did 5000kms on it, then dumped it pronto. It was 10w50 which should then only be different when hot, but the cold weight differences vs Sougi were incredibly noticeable. Yet they are both 10w.

Then I put in Sougi and all I can say from my own personal firsthand experience... I know how my car is reacting to this oil. It's not a placebo if it runs smoother, has less tapping noises, and revs freer. It's not a placebo if the oil pressure reaches running temperature quicker. What you've missed here siksII is that along with people stating their positive experiences with Sougi, hand in hand with this is the discussion about the correct weight oil for our Skylines. It's not just the fact Sougi is a true Ester based synthetic, but it's also from my own experience the best weight oil for my driving style, environment, weather patterns etc. And not one person here has said... yep I put in Sougi... it was shit... I'm going back to Magnatec!

And to confirm what Birds was saying, absolutely we all know those knocks and sounds in our cars, if something is new or hmmm where is that tapping noise coming from etc.

A UOA only tells you what's happening on a molecular level. Real world experience of driving the car, feeling how it's running is more important in my book. A UOA could tell us a 10w70 margarine oil is the best because it has no shear and maintains it's viscosity over time. A real world analysis of this would tell you within seconds, WTF did I just put in my engine!?

First you need to find an oil that's the right weight, then based on what you want to spend whether it be mineral, poly or ester based. Only then once you've tried the oil out, driven the car and are happy with how it's performing is a UOA of any benefit. As it's the length of time you use an oil that then makes a UOA relevant. In this case, it would make a case if we ran Sougi for 10,000kms vs 5000kms or 7500kms. Then we could see the oil doesn't sheer until X kms, thus we can safely get 10,000kms out of it, or to be safe change it at 8000 or 9000 etc.

An analysis of used oil is a waste of time without factoring how your car responds to using it in the first place.

[some_cs_student]

A UOA only tells you what's happening on a molecular level. Real world experience of driving the car, feeling how it's running is more important in my book. A UOA could tell us a 10w70 margarine oil is the best because it has no shear and maintains it's viscosity over time. A real world analysis of this would tell you within seconds, WTF did I just put in my engine!?

<cut>

An analysis of used oil is a waste of time without factoring how your car responds to using it in the first place.

Agreed, but I'd like to see some analysis of the oil everyone is talking about to prove the testing backs up your real life experience.

Castrol Syntec 0w30 has done a great job for me, with oil pressure and temperature, I can't personally judge if any oil has been quieter than another, I could put in a thick oil and make my engine very quiet, it wouldn't necessarily be a good thing

I will do a UOA of my oil next change, but due to the lack of driving I do that is quite a while away

[Galois]

The stuff that makes Magnatec magnetic is the best thing about it. Synthetic esters are polar, ie magnetic, group V oils like 300v and redline are made from a base of synthetic esters, Magnatec is a group III mineral oil with some small amount of ester added in to substantiate its marketing. You could call 300v or any group V super magnatec in terms of being magnetic since they are based on magnetic synthetic esters!

esters (in general) have a slight polarity due to the double bonded oxygen present but, depending on the reactants used in the ester manufacture, there are likely to be significantly long carbon chains to offset the effect of that oxygen. these chains may have polar ends, we (me at least) can't comment on the particualr molecules used as castrol no doubt keeps that secret. that said, polarity doesn't have anything to do with magnetism. all the shape and the minor polatiry of the ester does is affect its surface properties, which is why its an effective oil. perhaps, due to its surface properties, it does stick to the engine similar to how a charged particle does to some extent, but oil is viscous and a liquid, which in terms of serface activity behaves very different to a light particle with a charge. the oil will drain with the rest of it into the sump. anything that causes the oil to stick to the engine components is an additive of castrols.

In terms of UOA - there is heaps of UOA posted around the net and when people change oil from one type to another the wear recorded can usually changes during that first new interval so I would say that real life examples go against your two year example. ie. both cases would show similar wear assuming a decent interval, say 5000kms. The UOA does not seem to really show what happened previously, only what happened in the last period since probably 90%+ of the oil is flushed out of the system when you do a change.

RE the UOA process...When you sample the oil you keep the car running for a while so the oil is mixed but other than that you can take it at any time and you dont do a flush or anything out of the ordinary.

The point of it is not just to see the trace elements and what/how much additives are in an oil, its to track how much your engine is wearing and the condition of the oil at that time. You can then correlate the three and therefore whenever you decide to do it for whatever reason, it will give you a good idea of how much wear has happened and what condition the oil is in.

If you don't control the UOA process than details such as the last couple of oils used and when they were changed have much more of an effect. im not saying that its less relevant, you're right its more relevant to real life, but the variables increase dramatically on an experiment with many many variables as it is (engine life, how its been driven, climates, engine treatment, modifications). 5000km is not a long time and in the extreme example the new oil may be cleaning up after the no-name brand one. Just to clarify, I haven't done a UOA but the process seems to have a lot of variability from car to car, situation to situation.

My example. I only started doing it recently, but have taken three samples of the same oil. First was after 5000kms, second was after 4200kms, 3rd was after 2200kms (which I have not changed yet) but the 3rd one at 2200km/3months already shows that the oil is not doing well and I would be best to change it now. I know this since I can compare with my older analysis and see the wear rates plus how much the oil has thinned out (which it has in a short period). So rather than leaving it in for anther 3 months or 2700kms and allowing higher than normal wear to occur in that time, I know to change now and have wear rates go back to normal.

Interesting about your wear rates mate, what oil are you using?

You can also get an indication of your air filter's condition since poor filtering lets in silicon (sand) from the atmosphere which mixes with the oil and causes damage to your internals. I have been lazy changing it so have recorded higher and higher readings of silicon over the last 3 changes. Unless the silicon content in the next oil I use is much different, I am expecting the silicon reading to go back to normal since I will change the air filter at the same time as the oil.

What is the path for the sand from the air filter to the oil? Does it just get through from blowby? If so that's pretty scary that detectable amounts can get past the cylinders

And to confirm what Birds was saying, absolutely we all know those knocks and sounds in our cars, if something is new or hmmm where is that tapping noise coming from etc.

i totally agree, i freak out whenever i hear anything different lol

Agreed, but I'd like to see some analysis of the oil everyone is talking about to prove the testing backs up your real life experience.

Castrol Syntec 0w30 has done a great job for me, with oil pressure and temperature, I can't personally judge if any oil has been quieter than another, I could put in a thick oil and make my engine very quiet, it wouldn't necessarily be a good thing tongue.gif

I will do a UOA of my oil next change, but due to the lack of driving I do that is quite a while away smile.gif

if you wanted to you could test out a 10w40, you cant really damage your engine as long as you change regularly. no trying to push you or anything, the 0w30 might be the best oil on the market for your car, everyone's is different