Gtr Vs Gtst Huge Difference In Performance?

[Duncan1]

Yay, reach arounds all round. Everybody is a winner

Quite funny actually..... Im thinking you must be one of the 2 out of 10 that dont have brain explosion every time the lights go green. but im just calling it as i see it... as for the reach arounds- Combi owners being doing it for 50 years. Nothing wrong with some appreciation of a fine car/ or a humpy old combi for that matter...

Edited July 14, 2008 by Duncan1

[subzeroR33]

I had a 330 rwkw R33 GTS-T with 285 semi slicks and i wish it was 4WD. Very big traction problems down the 1/4 until i got out of third only got a 13 sec pass but had a 128 mph pass.

[tridentt150v]

I had a 330 rwkw R33 GTS-T with 285 semi slicks and i wish it was 4WD. Very big traction problems down the 1/4 until i got out of third only got a 13 sec pass but had a 128 mph pass.

Not questioning you, but tempering your response with = there are many many cars out there in the big wide world that have more hp and do better times, including turbo's/v8's/rotaries etc etc so 4wd is not the only answer. Maybe their setup is different though?

Also for rwd, carts, GP, drift and drags are all dominated [by rules or performance] by rwd, so I don't feel too inferior. Having said that though, I do think that 4wd is a blo#dy good mechanical advantage in many area's [cornering, launching, wet, gravel etc etc]. So I don't feel too superior either.................lol

[FineLine]

Not questioning you, but tempering your response with = there are many many cars out there in the big wide world that have more hp and do better times, including turbo's/v8's/rotaries etc etc so 4wd is not the only answer. Maybe their setup is different though?

Also for rwd, carts, GP, drift and drags are all dominated [by rules or performance] by rwd, so I don't feel too inferior. Having said that though, I do think that 4wd is a blo#dy good mechanical advantage in many area's [cornering, launching, wet, gravel etc etc]. So I don't feel too superior either.................lol

LOL. Karl's problem was that he was too damn soft to get stuck in to it properly. Wouldnt deflate his tyres or do a decent burnout to get a half decent launch. He just drove miss daisy out of the hole then nailed its arse when he finally had some traction. That car had some serious mumbo too.

[FAT33R]

Guys,

Id have to agree with most of you about maintence on a GTR being

more expensive but its sure worth the extra expense.

After owning a 180, 200sx, 33 gtst and now a 33 Gtr id have to say a

GTR wins hands down in all areas.

It impressed so much that im now looking into getting a 34 GTR aswell.

[subzeroR33]

Not questioning you, but tempering your response with = there are many many cars out there in the big wide world that have more hp and do better times, including turbo's/v8's/rotaries etc etc so 4wd is not the only answer. Maybe their setup is different though?

Also for rwd, carts, GP, drift and drags are all dominated [by rules or performance] by rwd, so I don't feel too inferior. Having said that though, I do think that 4wd is a blo#dy good mechanical advantage in many area's [cornering, launching, wet, gravel etc etc]. So I don't feel too superior either.................lol

Yeah very true my suspension was not set up for drag, but im sure if i had a GTR i would have made better traction and better times.

And hello Mr Fineline long time no hear mate.

[Sydneykid]

Interesting topic, much more complex than it would appear on the surface. Since almost no one on SAU has a stock standard R32GTST or R32GTR then I have to allow for the possibility of modifications, their cost and effect on any comparison. I think I would need to break it down;

1. Engine, in the SAU world the GTR and GTST engine differences can in fact be ignored, RB's are so easily interchangeable and RB30DET's in GTST's so common, that any off the show room floor advantage held by a GTR is temporary.

2. Gearbox, personally I think the advantage here is with the GTST due to the requirement for the transfer case on GTR's. Internally there is no difference in strength between an R33GTST gearbox and an R32/33 GTR gearbox. Realisically you could use almost any RWD gearbox in a GTST, but that's not the case in a GTR. For example installing a complete Hollinger (sequential or H pattern) as used in V8Supercars would be a simple excercise in a 2wd chassis

2. Diff/diffs, the problem with a GTR is the size of the front diff, its physically much smaller than the rear diff and failures are common. Whereas the rear diff is almost bullet proof in both GTST's and GTR's. When we start to get the power balance right (~60/40) for ther best handling in a 650+ bhp GTR they start to break the front diffs on a regular basis. Upgrading the centre (to a Torson for example) fixes the major weakness, but the size of the crown wheel and pinion is still very much a limiting factor. There is no simple fix for this, accommodating a larger diff in the space available would be a complex engineering exercise.

3. The chassis, there were all sorts of rumours around about GTR shells being "stronger" than GTST's. Having done a number of torsional tests on both R32GTST and R32GTR during race preparation I can confidently say that I haven't seen any consistency there. The measured differences are small and usually traced to any damage that the chassis may have incurred in its lifetime.

4. Handling, not to be confused with traction. The GTST advantage here is in its inherently lower weight and the fact that the excess weight of the 4wd system in a GTR is in the front of the car. This further exacerbates the already front heavy bias inherent in the R32/33/34 chassis. So given equal tyres and suspension set up there is no reason why a GTST can't have a higher cornering speed due to its lighter weight. This also manifests itself as lesser front tyre degredation over the race distance. You can also get more caster in a GTST as there re no front driveshafts angles to complicate the process.

5. Traction, the only big advantage that a GTR has over a GTST. If the power output of the engine greatly exceeds the capacity of a 2wd to transmit that power through the tyres to the road then that's where the 4wd comes into its own. This particularly applies in a standing start event, such as a hillclimb, where a GTR has a distinct advantage in launch and power down.

6. Drag Racing, there is plenty of evidence that shows it is much easier/cheaper to build/buy a 9 sec GTST than it is to build/buy a 9 sec GTR. SubZero in their day output a number of 9 sec R33GTST's with autos and RB30 bottom ends that rattled of 9 sec 1/4's in the hands of relatively inexperienced drivers.

To be continued

[Sydneykid]

7. Brakes, given equal braking hardware, the lighter weight of the GTSTs will always see them stop quicker for longer.

In summary, when the engine's power output exceeds the 2wd traction then the GTR has a distinct advantage. Over a given power level (my guess ~500bhp) this traction advantage is simply too great for the other advantages of the GTST to overcome. That's where a GTR comes into its own. Of course, in a high end drag environment, the availablity of ever bigger and better rear tyres overcomes even that dissadvantage.

Cheers

Gary

[Bumblebee]

ud think so wouldnt u.. but gtr has bigger brakes... and more tyre area... so it does infact brake better.. and tests confirm that.. as for handling sure the gtst is lighter and should theoretically turn @ a higher speed.. but it doesnt

front diffs break.. yupp totally agree..

whatever gearbox u but on a gtst u can put on a gtr if u want rwd.. so that doesnt matter. 4wd owns rwd

gtrs seem to be the winners @ tracks... not gtst's.. not to say that gtsts are shit, coz theyre not. they have theyre fun points too, but when it comes to full on competition cars, no1 uses a gtst and wins. they all use gtrs. why? because they are a better platform car.. and if they are a better platform car, then that means tehy are better.

[Roy]

ud think so wouldnt u.. but gtr has bigger brakes... and more tyre area... so it does infact brake better.. and tests confirm that.. as for handling sure the gtst is lighter and should theoretically turn @ a higher speed.. but it doesnt

front diffs break.. yupp totally agree..

whatever gearbox u but on a gtst u can put on a gtr if u want rwd.. so that doesnt matter. 4wd owns rwd

gtrs seem to be the winners @ tracks... not gtst's.. not to say that gtsts are shit, coz theyre not. they have theyre fun points too, but when it comes to full on competition cars, no1 uses a gtst and wins. they all use gtrs. why? because they are a better platform car.. and if they are a better platform car, then that means tehy are better.

Jump in either car and follow the other around. You will get an idea of where the respective cars are weak / strong. But even then it is influenced by the parts and mods differences between the cars.

I know of a few GTR drivers that have driven my car and have commented on how well it stops. I have never asked htem whether it actually stops better then their cars, my experience at the track in brakign zones is that i can keep with them under brakes, sometimes even catch them up. But then again i am coming up to the corner some 20-30km/h slower, so

At the end of the day, i personally believe it comes down to the sum of the parts, that its. GTRs are quick in Vic because they are the properly set up and comprehensively modified cars.

There is only two rwd Skylines that i can think of and both are still compromised in the build and just getting the finishing touches at present. Indication of their first few trips to the track are encouraging and i look forward to watching them get some track kms under their belts and seeing the times they can punch out.

[Bumblebee]

i didnt mean in vic.. i meant worldwide.. and i have driven both cars as well as r33s and evos and ferarris and lambos..

ive driven a shitload of cars on the track @ full pace... not saying the GTR is the best car ive ever driven because its not.. my lil civic handled better hahah

my friend has a well sorted r32 gtst and it handles very very fkn well... he works for lambo melb and one a tight technical course laid out by DECA he was actually faster than the race lambo they have @ the shop ( course where power means absolutely nothing)

but that was only on 1 track.. the rest required some power and he lost.. big time.. but it shows just how well an r32 gtst can handle.. but on a proper circuit its handicapped... for street use..

4wd goes a long way to help those unfortunate ppl who cant drive. a high powered rwd has shown to easily kill its occupants who cant drive lol

[PM-R33]

4wd goes a long way to help those unfortunate ppl who cant drive. a high powered rwd has shown to easily kill its occupants who cant drive lol

In a way i agree, but i reckon its the other way around. In a RWD car, due to its nature to oversteer, you always know where that limit is and when it steps out you can regain it quite easily by holding the slide. However AWD cars give a bit of a false sense of security and their limits aren't always known to the driver, not so much talking about GTR's here due to them mainly being RWD when driving around normally, but WRX's and EVO's. Once these cars get pushed over their limit they violently snap out into a spin which is incredibly hard to control and therefore in a way more dangerous.

In the past few years here in Townsville there have been three major crashes in WRX's where atleast one occupant has died in each crash due to the driver losing control and spinning out.

So yeah i agree with the fact AWD does help put power down and control it due to it not braking traction as easily, but when pushed to far i believe the AWD has a higher risk of killing occupants then a RWD.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

[boostin_r33]

looks like the GT-R Wins....

[Tomek]

il try not too dribble for too long, had a long day and im pretty tired.. so here goes.

Sydney kid makes a lot of sense in his explanation and i do agree with him..

But how many GTS-t kicking around now are properly set up? Sure the one's that go to the track owned by a serious enthusiast who has poured hours upon hours of research and trial and error development into his car may "just" (or not) have the edge over a similiarly powered GTR. But in the real world, not everyone is a guru... Owner fit's a turbo, fuel set-up, suspension, tires and brakes ... tweaks a few after market offered settings and hits the track in his modded GTS-t. While the GTR owner does his few little mods and tweaks his few little settings and goes to the track. IMO (non-bias) the GTR owner suceeds in lapping quicker times due to the package that was offered from factory and improved upon from A/M parts.. There would be a lot more fart assing around to get the GTS-t set-up "just right" in order to keep with the GTR.

From my experiences the little tweaks i had to do to set my car up at the track (street tires ) were adjusting the softness/ hardness of springs and tire pressures. While my mates would be spending days in prep to get their car's (semi's) right in order to edge infront of me ultimately losing out in the end when temperature, surface and layout changed.

[Victory]

As someone who owns both a R33 GTS-T Series II and a R33 GTR V-Spec I think that I can speak with some knowledge. These are two very different cars in so many respects that the comparison debate will never solve.

I appreciate what each of them deliver for me and I would never attempt to make my GTS-T into a GTR.

The GTS-T has responsive power, handling and braking. It can be a handful in the wet if it is not on good rubber but it slides so predictably that it is just a lot of fun to own and drive (the perfect daily driver).

The GTR has more power across the rev range, grip in both the wet and dry is much better and it is always very predictable under brakes. It just has the power, grip and stopping ability that exceed whatever an old guy like me throws at it. This level of stability can become boring after you have mastered it until you take someone for a run in it who has not been in a GTR before and you scare the crap out of them with just your normal driving.

Both cars have nothing to prove to anyone and people should just enjoy what they have. Each car can be modified to provide any level of performance that the owner desires.

I am now embarking on another Skyline adventure as my son is building an R32 GTS running an RB25de. He is focusing on the handling and braking attributes of a R32 without the power and is running a number of GTR and GTS-T components.

And no I do not want to become involved in the "NA" verses "turbo" debate which is just the same as the GTR - GTS-T debate just in a different guise.

[R33GOD]

well i just bought a r33 gtr. i pick it up in a week. then i can tell ya the difference!! lol

[toddlls]

At our last skid day with time trial & slalom, I believe all events were won by RWD over 4WD. This was probably due a factor that other than excellent out-of-the-hole acceleration displayed by the GTR it suffered in low speed low traction situations where rapid changes in direction were required. On the first slalom the R32 GTR I was up against had 5 car lengths on me straight up out of the hole but I beat him to the end of the course.

I guess what I am trying to say is for a purpose built race car the GTR is outstanding, but we dont drive on race tracks everyday so when used correctly cars that seem alot less capable i.e Gtst's can perform equally as well.

It always comes down to one thing. If you own a Nissan- regardless whether GTR or Gts or Gtst, it doesn't matter. What really matters is it's a SKYLINE.

P.s I dont mind the look of the GTR in any model, but I prefer the handling of the R32 GTST so thats why I bought mine

p.p.s My last car was a KE Tx3 4WD that had alot of suspension upgrades and midly modded motor. And if you want a quick car that destroys others on corners go buy one of those. It would eat my car or any GTR for breakfast on short tracks, so much fun to drive fast too once I learnt how to drive it properly via advance rally tuition, but hell it was uncomfortable to drive 600k's in 1 hit

[monga]

Was the GTS-T on the cover off all the motor mags in the 90's.

[toddlls]

Was the GTS-T on the cover off all the motor mags in the 90's.

No, I dont think they were, but I have seen plenty of bommadore's on car mag covers and that doesn't make them cool to own or great to drive either but we all love skylines here and they are great to drive

& cool to own regardless of which it is

[R33GOD]

i can give you my verdict now as iv been drivin the R for a week now.

There is no comparison what so ever. Gtr for the win hands down. Feels like a completely different car even though they look similiar

Although on a run my gtst would have beatmy gtr cause it had 260rwk. but honestly the gtr with minimal mods and some boost would do just as good if not better...

Edited August 23, 2008 by R33GOD