Cheap Helmets

[SLED]

yeah I hear what you are saying Rueben, however let's face it - you are 1,000 - 10,000x more likely to have an accident on the street than at Lala (given the relatively massive amount of time one drives on the street, factored in that most other drivers are farking hopeless/inattentive/too old to be driving/drunk etc). Now, on the street there are 1) no helmets, 2) no fire extinguishers/firies, 3) no full length protective clothes, 4) no scrutineers checking every cars tyres/brakes/everything else are fine, 5) and most importantly of all at Lala you are likely to hit a (relatively soft) tire wall, or gravel trap to take off some speed, whereas on the street many accidents are hitting cars coming the other way - or at least moving toward you in some respect.

Thats a very good point Andrew.....you also forgot to mention seatbelts (or the lack thereof) in school buses.

I've seen some slow-mo video of kids becoming missiles in bus crashes as slow as 20kph. One kid got thrown from the back seat, down the isle and smashed his head on the front windscreen without touching the ground along the way.....I'm buggered if I know why they still don't have belts on buses yet.

It's good to see some intelligent discussion from everyone here for once....SAU needs more threads like this one.

[gtrkiet]

walk it out and dont bus it! ^_^ lol

[Nightcrawler]

Andy, I reckon some little China man in a small sweat shop makes those stickers on his 486DX coupled to a mono dot matrix printer using rice paper .

I would agree with you Pete, except the high quality of the embedded sticker (might even be printed on the helmet) makes it look remarkably legit. Also, unlikely some dodgy Chinese businessman would bother putting a Sydney company name and AS details if the helmet were not so certified.

Seriously bud, you'll be lucky to get that helmet through scrutineering.....in the bike world we call them novelty helmets....

yeah that is a very valid point - I will take my existing helmet (which has a silver sticker, yet only cost $100 from Kart Mania and to be honest looks of significantly worse quality workmanship than my new helmet) along as well and see if they both pass scrutineering next time I head out.

thanks sled

you know alot more then me and helped me out a bit too smile.gif

oh hail King Sleddor - aka Pete the Knowledgeable .... yes he is a wealth of knowledge

Thats a very good point Andrew.....you also forgot to mention seatbelts (or the lack thereof) in school buses.

I've seen some slow-mo video of kids becoming missiles in bus crashes as slow as 20kph. One kid got thrown from the back seat, down the isle and smashed his head on the front windscreen without touching the ground along the way.....I'm buggered if I know why they still don't have belts on buses yet.

yeah can't agree more about the bus seatbelt thing - absolutely insane that our nearest and dearest (kids) would be packed like sardines into a big tin can and not given any protection whatsoever. I believe this has been remedied these days to some point - last your on the Greyhound bus to the Vic ski fields we had to wear seatbelts - safer, but makes it very hard to sleep comfortably.

It's good to see some intelligent discussion from everyone here for once....SAU needs more threads like this one.

hehe I was actually thinking the opposite when everyone came out knocking my post - but some good constructive points have come out of the discussions.

And for the record I do agree with what everyone has said in this post - the helmet I bought and let people know about is a play helmet, for very low volume play events, and should be treated as such. It is obviously not meant for bike riders or serious people who drive seriously fast, or do serious frequent events. If you fall into that category you should definitely buy a Shoei or something decent, as Reuben pointed out.

[RubyRS4]

yeah I hear what you are saying Rueben, however let's face it - you are 1,000 - 10,000x more likely to have an accident on the street than at Lala

Thats a bit of a generalisation. I've had 2 accidents on the street. They were just severe due to the road furniture and other vehicles there to 'hit'. My track gear is far superior to my road gear, and I have crashed numerous times on track at over 130+ kph. I get up and walk away, which is a strong argument for a good quality helmet. So, I am in fact more likely to crash on the track at Mallala than on the street

By your logic we should all be wearing $700+ helmets when going to the shops (which is where fyi the vast majority of accidents happen - within 10km of your home).

Why not? My close friend was killed when t-boned by a speeding driver! If she wore a helmet, she'd be alive today. And it happened 400m from her home. How many more drivers/passengers would be alive today if they did wear a helmet? Makes more sense in saving lives than speed cameras do!

But then if people wore helmets in cars, they can't talk on their phone then could they.

Of course I am talking about cars here. Riding bikes on the street is just plain dumb, and everyone who does them has a deathwish in my humble opinio - and yes I realise I am going to get completely flamed for that comment - it is by belief, and I am entitled to it. Not one bike rider I know has not had some serious accident or near death experience on a bike - and it is nearly always someone else's fault (including you Reuben - I think I remember "councils poor maintenance of roads" as the reason for you coming off your Brutale). Yes I am a cheeky s.o.b

I love my riding too much mate and am beyond what people think of me riding I've had my near death experiences and, having said that, I wear appropriate gear always. So I know the value of exceptional gear and I won't wear anything less ... is why I don't like cheap gear. I know the risks, and its my responsibility to protect myself as best I can. In what I wear, my skills, my roadcraft, and my attitude on the road or track. But, of course, you cannot anticiapte everything ... hence my last crash and breaking my shoulder. Which reinforces my point that anything can happen at any time, so why not have the best gear? Motorcycling has brought me soo much joy and new friends. Its no different to SAU. I'd give up driving, before I gave up riding.

My mother said something to me the other day that did warm my heart (she was heavily opposed to me riding motorcycles when I first got my licence): "After 19 years, you're still alive, so I guess motorcycles are not that dangerous! ... even in the hands of someone like you!"

Edited July 2, 2008 by RubyRS4

[RubyRS4]

Hehe, I have a way with words sometimes to the GF about motorcycling. She's keen to get her own bike and licence etc. I wouldn't take her out on my bike until she had proper fitting gear and a good lid.

When it came to buying boots for her, she wanted a cheap pair due to costs ... not the $450 Alpinestar armoured boots I selected. I simply held up one of each boot in my hands, and asked her to close her eyes: "imagine she's lying on the side of the road; bike is busted by a car; you've shattered your ankle. Now open your eyes and pick a boot!". Obviously she picked the better boot

Did the same trick too when it came to helmets ... only she had one essential requirement ... it had to be pink!

[Nightcrawler]

^^^ chicks on bikes are HOT

[RubyRS4]

^^^ chicks on bikes are HOT

Too right!

I'll tell that to my friend Jessica too when she turns up tonight on her VFR

[4door_Sleeper]

I can see both sides to this argument, but in reality on a bike tho ONLY protection you have is the protection you wear. In a car you have so much more, crumple zones, air bags, suspension etc. etc.

I would rather have a car crash at 60km/hr than a bike crash at 20km/hr - my money would be on the car driver beeing better off.

I think a $25 pushbike helmet on a car driver would probably make them safer than any armour you could get on a motor bike rider.

At the end of the day its about taking risks, and if you dont like the risk, dont take the car on the track.

Ruben, your comment that "I have crashed numerous times on track at over 130+ kph. I get up and walk away" is probably a better argument for the safety of the track than the helmet, what do you think your chances would have been like if you did that on the road? My guess is that your head may not be crushed, but is still unlikely to be attached to your body. Falling off a bike at speed isnt fun, but its usually what you hit next (or what hits you) that causes the damage, and cars, gutters, trees, stoby poles etc are never rider friendly.

[SLED]

Falling off a bike at speed isnt fun, but its usually what you hit next (or what hits you) that causes the damage, and cars, gutters, trees, stoby poles etc are never rider friendly.

thats quite true actually. How many times do you see front wheel losses on the track that usually result in very long slides (even at over 200kph) & they just get up again as long as they dont hit a wall along the way. At those speeds your gear only saves your skin from peeling off. Lose a back wheel on the other hand and go over the top then get slapped onto the track and a steel cage around you wont save you.....look at poor Wayne Rainey, I remember seeing that race live on tv, shocking!

[Nightcrawler]

I remember fairly recently seeing an RAA study into accidents, that showed that planting trees anywhere near the roadside is a VERY bad idea. And I agree.

Then they did the new Port Expressway which is a 90km/k zone down the back of Gillman/Wingfield/Ottoway (where the Elite Street Tuned cruise recently had 2 cars written off) - and proceeded to plant something like 500 trees along it .... idiots.

As guy and Pete say: it's rarely the accident or speed that kills you - it is the hard thing you end up against that kills you the majority of the time.

[SLED]

Amen brother....just ask Brocky.....would still be with us today if that tree was 1 metre to the left or right.

[nos man]

As guy and Pete say: it's rarely the accident or speed that kills you - it is the hard thing you end up against that kills you the majority of the time.

well you know! it's the accident or speed that get's you in that situation!

[RubyRS4]

I can see both sides to this argument, but in reality on a bike tho ONLY protection you have is the protection you wear. In a car you have so much more, crumple zones, air bags, suspension etc. etc.

Protection is not only in the form of what you wear. Skills, attitude, weather ... even car drivers come undone thru lack thereof.

I would rather have a car crash at 60km/hr than a bike crash at 20km/hr - my money would be on the car driver beeing better off.

Car drivers have been killed at 60kph. Don't think I've ever heard of a rider being killed at 20kph!?! You have data to support this thought? My money is on the rider.

I think a $25 pushbike helmet on a car driver would probably make them safer than any armour you could get on a motor bike rider.

So my $3000 in protective gear is superseded by a $25 bike helmet? Sweet!

Ruben, your comment that "I have crashed numerous times on track at over 130+ kph. I get up and walk away" is probably a better argument for the safety of the track than the helmet, what do you think your chances would have been like if you did that on the road? My guess is that your head may not be crushed, but is still unlikely to be attached to your body. Falling off a bike at speed isnt fun, but its usually what you hit next (or what hits you) that causes the damage, and cars, gutters, trees, stoby poles etc are never rider friendly.

Yes, I've crashed which supports the point of protective gear ... quality protective gear ... which is what this topic was about.

There is nothing safe about Mallala ... the track is a shit hole.

Yes, the road is a more dangerous environment ... that applies to cars too, don't forget! In fact your whole opinion also applies to cars.

So, again, how many car occupants do you think would be alive today with a good quality helmet?

And is this the point where I remind you guys that there have been more car racers killed than motorcycle racers?

And with the exception of Pete and myself, who else rides?

[4door_Sleeper]

Hmmm, where to start - perhaps if i use smaller words

Protection is not only in the form of what you wear. Skills, attitude, weather ... even car drivers come undone thru lack thereof.

Agreed - defensive driving and attitude is very important (i never said otherwise), but the on a bike you have much less PHYSICAL protection, this is what protects you in an accident, attitude helps reduce the chance of an accident, but Physical Protection is what will keep you alive if you have an accident - luck not withstanding

Car drivers have been killed at 60kph. Don't think I've ever heard of a rider being killed at 20kph!?! You have data to support this thought? My money is on the rider.

figures show that motorcyclists are 23 times more likely to be killed on the road than car drivers

Motorcyclists now account for almost 15 per cent of all road deaths despite making up only 4.5 per cent of registered vehicles in Australia - 2008 figures

http://www.minister.infrastructure.gov.au/.../AA038_2008.htm

Figures show the car is much safer.

So my $3000 in protective gear is superseded by a $25 bike helmet? Sweet!

again, in little words, - IMO (hence the start of that sentence - "I think") a car driver with a $25 bike helmet will be safer "in the car" than a motorcyclist "on a bike" having the same accident because the car has so many innate safety features built in to it that bikes can't/don't have. Given the choice of hitting a solid object (a wall/back of a truck, tree etc) at a given speed what would you rater do it with, a bike with a rider in $3000 protective gear or in a car wearing thongs and a singlet and a $25 helmet

Yes, I've crashed which supports the point of protective gear ... quality protective gear ... which is what this topic was about.

There is nothing safe about Mallala ... the track is a shit hole.

Yes, the road is a more dangerous environment ... that applies to cars too, don't forget! In fact your whole opinion also applies to cars.

Did I say it wasn't the case for cars as well?

a 130km/hr crash in a car or bike on the road is most likely a fatality, and no amount of protective gear will help you if you hit something and stop suddenly. Leathers and helmets will just make it easier to poor the body parts into a coffin rather than searching all over to find them.

So, again, how many car occupants do you think would be alive today with a good quality helmet?

Stats in the article above show 9 out of 10 motorcyclists were wearing helmets, but it didn't help them. (and lets not start the argument about full faced vs open faced and broken necks). Again, this is my opinion, but helmets in road cars would have a greater effect on the number of Acquired Brain Injuries than on fatalities. I think in most cases the fatality would still occur, but for accident survivors the consequences could be a lot less severe.

PEACE OUT

[4door_Sleeper]

PS,

42% of all motorcycle fatalities are single vehicle accidents, which might indicate that protective clothing isnt making a huge difference.

and if we play with the figures which say that "One in ten motorcyclists killed were not wearing a helmet", then you are 9 times more likely to be found dead if you are wearing a helmet LOL

[Nightcrawler]

true, wise words Guy. A slightly extreme example (20km/h vs 60km/h) but I agree with, and understand what you are saying; cars are quite forgiving and the fatality vs injury rate is actually quite low - whereas on a bike the fatality rate is not that far off the injury rate.

And Reuben, the thing you have missed in all of this is that NONE of the people this post was aimed at drive competitively - and as I said these helmets are definitely not recommended for real racing.

The purpose of these cheap helmets is for us SAU guys to wear at Mallala on public track days, where 1) you are not actually allowed to go that fast, and more importantly 2) you are not really allowed to pass other cars (if you do it has to be slowly, on a straight or when someone has pulled over and waved you past). So in this frame of reference the chances of actually having an accident are EXTREMELY low (and I haven't heard of an accident at public track days period - let alone a fatality). As opposed to your talk about your on-track accidents, which I presume you were racing (or at least being silly).

Just wanted to clear that up

[JET_LAG]

I remember fairly recently seeing an RAA study into accidents, that showed that planting trees anywhere near the roadside is a VERY bad idea. And I agree.

Then they did the new Port Expressway which is a 90km/k zone down the back of Gillman/Wingfield/Ottoway (where the Elite Street Tuned cruise recently had 2 cars written off) - and proceeded to plant something like 500 trees along it .... idiots.

As guy and Pete say: it's rarely the accident or speed that kills you - it is the hard thing you end up against that kills you the majority of the time.

If there were trees there at the time of the crash me and my mates wouldnt be here right now.

i know that solid object so close to the road are dangerous idea

and i agree that planting trees 5 metres away is just plain stupidity

and a bit off topic here but seen as there are a few more ppl on here that ride bikes then i thought.

i never touch the rear brake when riding on the road, how many off the riders here that know what there talking about do the same??

my old boss use to race in the superbike series and he taught me all that stuff

[RubyRS4]

Statistics can be read to say what you want them to say. I've seen the raw data where they get their so-called stats. For one thing, the police do not have an adequate reporting system for motorcycle accidents. Anything that has two wheels and is powered by a motor is considered a "motorcycle" (even off-road trikes or quads). A pushbike with an engine is categorised as a "motorcycle", a scooter (the rider who does not hold a motorcycle licence or had the training) is categorised as a "motorcycle". Dirt bike riders are categorised as a "motorcyclist". Even a 12yo who was recently killed on his parents farm crossing from one paddock to another on his trial bike across a public road, was categorised as a "motorcyclist". Hell, a 16yo killed himself on an R1 around the corner from my house. He had no licence for that bike, no training, and no helmet ... yet he was recorded as a motorcycle death! There are many variables which inflate the stats on motorcycle deaths. I've been in consultation with the Australian Motorcycle Council on safety issues (like those dam wire "safty" fences, and the bullshit front plate legislation) and been an active member of the MRA and I've seen the raw data first hand and assisted in submitting a report (more like a "translation" for those to thick to read the raw data). Per capita "yes" motorcyclists are more vulnerable and represent a 'concerning' number of casualties and fatalities, but it is not as inflated as "23 times more likely" that you've been led to believe. The true number is mroe like 4 times more likely, and this is due to inadequate training and also the ignorance of drivers. 84% of motorcyclists involved in multiple vehicle accidents are found to be not at fault (the driver is at fault), and even single vehicle motorcycle crashes are affected by poor roads, diesel/petrol/oil spills, even pedestrains! So don't go looking to the stats, because they're wrong due to an inadequate reporting system.

Now, at the same time, I'm not defending all motorcyclists. There are some real knob jobs out there. I'm only discrediting the statistics which are inaccurate. Look at the raw data for licenced riders. There are a few motorcyclists I see everyday that are asking for trouble the way the ride, or due to lack of gear, and a combination of both! But I've seen car drivers too where I'm shaking my head all the time too.

I understand that motorcycles and cars have different places and safety standards on the road and the track. What I am saying is not to be so assumptious. Everyone believes "motorcycles are dangerous" and thats one of the most narrow minded views the public has. Motorcycles do require a higher alertness and roadcraft than car drivers.

"42% of all motorcycle fatalities are single vehicle accidents, which might indicate that protective clothing isnt making a huge difference" What a load of cock. Protective clothing makes no difference? That is the stupidest comment I've heard yet. And again, where do those numbers come from? Those numbnuts on scooters who wear minimal or no protective clothing at all? Look at the data that concerns licensed and trained motorcyclists, and you'll see the real story. The stats are only put together to read what was required at the time, so they could introduce new legislation or create new laws against the motorcycling community. Yet they do nothing to improve the training of those motorcyclists. Or introduce proper laws, like making an approved jacket and gloves compulsory also as well as a good quality helmet. That is something the Aust Motorcycle Council was pushing for when I was on the panel but the Govt was not interested. I had applied for employment as an instructor for Rider Safe, but after I discovered they had a set training program which was weak, and not flexible at all, I withdrew my application. Thats why I encourage newbies to ride with seasoned riders so they can learn life saving things that Rider Safe do not promote.

And my accident "yes" was single vehicle, but the environment wasn't the best (yes I blame the condition of the road). I still look to that day on how I could have avoided it, but 'meh' whats done is done. I wore the full gear which minimised my injuries being worse (my own 190kg bike was running over me as we slid down the road). I had no head injuries, no injuries from the bike being on top of me, no bruises or abbrasions, only the broken shoulder from striking the gutter on the way down, on the inside kerb. So a good quality helmet worked? Sure did. It was simply a freak accident ... but a motorcycle accident nonetheless.

Andrew, I'm aware it wasn't aimed at those who drive competitively only, don't go thinking I was. I was talking about track days myself too. During track days, drivers have poor gear IMO and riders have full leathers etc. So on that level, they are better prepared and therefore better protected according to the level of risk. In a competitive environment, even the car racer would have top spec gear ... so that throws the 'cheap helmet' out the window anyway Why then would you have a cheap lid on your head, if you're going to be travelling at close to race speeds then? I brought up the example of race driver deaths vs motorcycle racer deaths on the level that they would have top shelf equipment on both sides. Riders race gear seems to be more effective than (for example) rally gear, even with the 'cage' around them. Good quality road gear for riders is very much on par with gear worn by racers. You don't see that sort of level in plain track days, where drivers simply need a helmet and long sleeves.

You guys can keep turning my words around on me and pull out % from where you want. But the original argument was "would I put my brain in a cheap helmet?". No, I would not.

I'm done.

Edited July 3, 2008 by RubyRS4

[PSI Parts]

I'll jump in and add my bit as I have been researching helmet standards a fair bit lately for our full carbon fibre helmets.

All Australian certified helmets are required to have the chrome AS1698 sticker issued by SAI Global (the governing body of standards), along with the sticker there is a serial number that is used to track the batch of the helmet. Simply having a red sticker saying it meets the standards is not enough. Although the red sticker may pass scrutinising does it by NO means make it comply with AS1698. Let's face it, a 30sec check over does not leave time to go over safety equipment in detail. Don't fool yourself that nobody in Australia is trying to make a buck from a product and putting on a fake sticker. The costs to get a helmet certified (Australia has one of the highest standards and toughest testing procedures in the world) is roughly around $25,000+ AUD. This is per style too, so you soon start to see why most of the 'good' helmets are $700+ as the production cost alone would eat into profit needed to reclaim the testing financial outlay.

I don't want to seem like I'm flogging my product, but I would NEVER buy a 'cheap' helmet. I'm a firm believer that you do it once and you do it right. I'm not going to debate the likelihood of you having an accident, but I will say that if you were in an accident and lying in hospital you might reconsider the amount you spent on your helmet because brain damage is forever. Besides we all know motor sport is not cheap. I'll finish with an old saying, only put a $50 helmet on a $50 head.

[chops]

Threads like this one restore my faith in this community - that it actually IS capable of vigorous debate without the deterioation of the thread.

With regards to that certification comany CSi - there's a reason thair sticker has that "funny" looking mark on it, apparently they are the only company that can use it:

http://www.csi-certification.com/

It seems they are a legitimate certification company, although their client list seems to consist mainly of Chinese manufacturers.

My theory on helmets (and many other things incidentally) has always been - use what's recommended by the guys that actually do the activity for a living.