Tarmac Rallying Perpetual Thread

[paulR32gtr]

That was pretty much our experience in 2008 - not that we were complaining being new to it all and the having the fear of 2007 CAMS put into us from everyone before leaving.

We stuck to the tyre rules and were really struggling with traction for the last two days - scratching our heads how others were keeping up the pace.

Its a tough issue for the organisers, but at the end of the day if its an enjoyable event thats all I care about - for now.

[fatz]

mental note

dont mention the special parts on your car to anyone

[Roy]

Mental note, stick with fun club stuff....i would only bin my car trying to do what they do anway Unless someone leased me their car then it would be on good hands!

[paulR32gtr]

So Snowy what was the actual reason behind the 5 speed if you dont mind sharing?

[R31Nismoid]

hmm that is a sad way for it to end, especially considering you drove so well. And it must have been a hell of a rollercoaster with the off along the way.

No point in blaming anyone else though, you read the rules (or should have), turned up with an illegal car, got caught and got disqualified. You are the only one responsible for this.

Hopefully you will be back next year with a car without any issues, and finish up the pointy end again.

BTW I'm surprised by the attitude from a lot of people in these recent posts - so here's a poll so this thread can stay on topic(ish) http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/Mo...ll-t319141.html

I think the issues with the 999 rule and the short run cars being accepted is a much bigger problem for this event. Both are rules, but they are still bullshit.

Oh now now... Come on Uncle Dunc.

If you are running illegal mods for power, and then want to complain (on purpose) about a modification that offers no performance benefit... Just sigh.

Either withdraw yourself first and show that you have some personal integrity, then by all means protest, or harden up.

Just because one mod can be seen/checked easily it's illegal - yet for the other its legal because it's such an arduous task to check and there is such dishonesty that exists?

If that wasn't how it went down, then scratch my comments. However if it was, then that is truly the epitome of someone who has no integrity about themselves and for shame on such people.

[sav man]

Hate to disagree with you Ben but the timing this year was the best yet

We only had one mistake of a minute which was quickly fixed

This was caused by human error not the system

Jeff

well you've done it the longest, so your probably the best joge. But in the last 3 years i never had an error, or had people around me with an error. This year Dad got a timing error on elephant pass, and i know there was 2-3 others around the same position that had errors. But i might have just been lucky the last 3 years.

I personly think you should have won EM. especialy since i harp on about cheaters all the time, and then to have my cheater father win does not impress me. It might sound like sour grapes, but it's not. His cheating was one of the factors that swayed me to build my own car and run myself.

[Duncan]

Oh now now... Come on Uncle Dunc.

If you are running illegal mods for power, and then want to complain (on purpose) about a modification that offers no performance benefit... Just sigh.

Either withdraw yourself first and show that you have some personal integrity, then by all means protest, or harden up.

Just because one mod can be seen/checked easily it's illegal - yet for the other its legal because it's such an arduous task to check and there is such dishonesty that exists?

If that wasn't how it went down, then scratch my comments. However if it was, then that is truly the epitome of someone who has no integrity about themselves and for shame on such people.

I beleive you have a major misunderstanding there. Snowy's car was found to be illegal by the scruitineers. Thatcher's car (I assume you are talking about) was not. Both were taking in for detailed checks at the end of the rally. I don't know any further facts on the ATTKD car to say it was or was not legal - but don't confuse building a car to a rule (ie limited run manufacturers) with breaking the rules.

You may or may not agree with the the limited run cars being eligible, and I don't but there is no doubt they are legal under current AASA rules.

[R31Nismoid]

You've missed my point entirely. Just because you are not "found" to have illegal mods means very little if you knowningly have them.

It shows a distinct lack of integrity as a person to make such accusations against another if you know you are in the wrong as well. Regardless of what scrutineers find or do not find.

Comes down to being a genuine person or not, more a moral thing than a phyisical thing.

And as i said... If what was said is accurate... ie... Is it 2.8ltr? First 2.8ltr R32 GTR i've heard of from the factory if that is true.

Aisde from that, if they within themselves know their own car has illegal mods, then it's the lowest of low. Just because you are not "caught" means nothing in my book if you are being outrightly dishonest.

[tom_g]

I beleive you have a major misunderstanding there. Snowy's car was found to be illegal by the scruitineers. Thatcher's car (I assume you are talking about) was not. Both were taking in for detailed checks at the end of the rally. I don't know any further facts on the ATTKD car to say it was or was not legal - but don't confuse building a car to a rule (ie limited run manufacturers) with breaking the rules.

You may or may not agree with the the limited run cars being eligible, and I don't but there is no doubt they are legal under current AASA rules.

So both cars were given detailed checks at the end of the event, Snowy's car was checked against the well known specs of the R34 N1 and failed, but what was Thatcher's car checked against. Where can someone get the specs for an ATTKD? I can't find any details of ATTKD ever making a Select R SP so it would be interesting to know where the specs come from and what evidence was provided that at least 10 were made.

Ash - ATTKD = Autech, so not from the Nissan factory.

[Duncan]

You've missed my point entirely. Just because you are not "found" to have illegal mods means very little if you knowningly have them.

It shows a distinct lack of integrity as a person to make such accusations against another if you know you are in the wrong as well. Regardless of what scrutineers find or do not find.

Comes down to being a genuine person or not, more a moral thing than a phyisical thing.

And as i said... If what was said is accurate... ie... Is it 2.8ltr? First 2.8ltr R32 GTR i've heard of from the factory if that is true.

Ash unless you

a/ know the details of an ATTKD select R SP

b/ know that the car was presented with a different spec

then you don't really have a reason to question their integrity. In fact your suggestion that the car is not legal is somewhere between uninformed insinuation and wild accusation.

So both cars were given detailed checks at the end of the event, Snowy's car was checked against the well known specs of the R34 N1 and failed, but what was Thatcher's car checked against. Where can someone get the specs for an ATTKD? I can't find any details of ATTKD ever making a Select R SP so it would be interesting to know where the specs come from and what evidence was provided that at least 10 were made.

Ash - ATTKD = Autech, so not from the Nissan factory.

Exactly why I don't like these cars competing. But they are legally allowed to. It is the competitor's responsibility to provide documentation that the car's spec is legal. And in Steve's case he had the owner of ATTKD along supporting the car, just like Mazda had Alan Horsley's guys supporting the Rx8. And lets not forget the outright 1st and 2nd cars also fall under these limited rules and are not being questioned.

BTW R34 N1 spec is anything but "well known". It does not help that the last R34 N1 that I know of that was disqulified presented a forged letter on nissan letterhead confirming a certain piece of spec was legal. When Porsche checked with Nissan JP as part of their protest the forgery was uncovered.

[Targa Tom]

Dont reckon we will hear from Snowy for a while, because whether the GB was quicker or slower - Targa is an event that is physically and emmotionally draining. When you get sooo close then it is taken away will make grown men cry.

Without any of the he said, she said... it was indeed snowmans deal to read the rules (and the GB rule is one of the easier ones... basically black and white)

Had anyone told me pre-event they were running a non standard GB, my interrigation would have gone like this...

"Have you read the rules?"

"Does it comply?"

"Are you sure - read again"

"Do you think you will be in the top ten?"

"Wouldnt it be a prick if you won then.....

I dont know the guy, but doesnt seem like a cheater... unfortunately like the derived thing... its in the sup regs.

As for the limited run things.... if guys were getting support from AM distributors by way of sponsorship, then I could see the point. However policing the "manufacturer" rule is so much easier. If they want wild looking things, let the bigger wheels n brakes...

What you may not be aware of is the event lost one of its engine room guys... a no nonesnse nice guy. He will be hard to replace and my opinion is he was missed this year.

Mark / Stu... hope you can see through all the emotion and realise there are some issues that need your attention. You have made it a policy to give the event longevity... and some of your changes I disagree with. However I know your heart and soul is in it, so suck it up like snowy will and make it a better next year.

Greg

[Targa Tom]

"And lets not forget the outright 1st and 2nd cars also fall under these limited rules and are not being questioned.

Dont ask me its name... but not too hard to google whiteys car. There is a squillion images of 'em and Lambo are making plenty.

Skelta, has been round for a long time (only needs to be five) and the spec has had one upgrade. Last year there were 3 this year two.

Ayres previous run (UK importer name R33) which enabled big exhausts and wheels started the change in rules.

Speaking of Dave - I thought the Nismo R400 was 2WD, can someone clear that up please.

(dont worry 400R = 4wd GT-R LM = 2wd)

TT

Edited May 3, 2010 by Targa Tom

[R31Nismoid]

Ash unless you

a/ know the details of an ATTKD select R SP

b/ know that the car was presented with a different spec

then you don't really have a reason to question their integrity. In fact your suggestion that the car is not legal is somewhere between uninformed insinuation and wild accusation.

I didn't question anyone’s integrity. I said IF Duncan, big difference as it's all subjective. I know full well that I'm not across all the details.

Again, IF they are know they have gone outside rules themselves, then to complain about another is a disgrace.

If they are 100% within the rules then good luck to them. Protest away…

No-one will ever really know anyway

It's a moot point for the most part, but in the motorsport world especially people are always so quick to shit on others when their own backyard has plenty of shit in it already.

(that was a generalised statement outside of this situation, before you get ya knickers in another knot )

As i also said:

If that wasn't how it went down, then scratch my comments.

[Targa Tom]

well you've done it the longest, so your probably the best joge. But in the last 3 years i never had an error, or had people around me with an error. This year Dad got a timing error on elephant pass, and i know there was 2-3 others around the same position that had errors. But i might have just been lucky the last 3 years.

I personly think you should have won EM. especialy since i harp on about cheaters all the time, and then to have my cheater father win does not impress me. It might sound like sour grapes, but it's not. His cheating was one of the factors that swayed me to build my own car and run myself.

Ummm - So Tiger dont come here much??? I'm tipping those comments - whether accuate or not - maybe better left to hearsay rather than commiting to the 3 W's.

TT

Just a kid in an old mans body.

Edited May 3, 2010 by Targa Tom

[Targa Tom]

Morning Woo... by the time you read this far your head will be spinning LOL

Can anyone tell me the Trophy Time on Arrowsmith this year...

TT

[Snowman]

Ok everyone - lets not get overly excited. I have copped the ruling square on the chin. It was a 100% honest mistake on my part as I thoght the 5 speed was legal.

Let me explain why.

Some of the rules state:

SR4. Diff/Clutch and Flywheel

The fly wheel is free providing that the original dimensions are retained and the replacement is of ferrous material. Clutch disc is free, but must retain the

original number of friction plates. The differential action is free providing that no external control of the action is possible. The manufacturer original ratio and

housing must be retained.

Despite what that says I can legally run a Nismo copper mix Twin plate and Nismo front and rear LSD's because they are "Nissan factory options"

13. Bodywork (except Showroom)

All body work must remain original. Unless freedoms otherwise stated in these rules. The fitting of under body protections is authorised, provided that these are

removable and which are designed exclusively and specifically in order to protect the following parts: engine, radiator, suspension, gearbox, fuel tank,

transmission, exhaust.

14. Spoilers and Skirts (except Showroom)

Aerodynamic aids must be as originally fitted to the vehicle in production however front spoilers, rear spoilers and side skirts may be made from alternative

materials but must retain the exact original shape and dimension. Original fittings must be used.

M2. Bodywork

Alternative materials are permitted for the following panels provided they are of the exact same external shape as the original panel:

• Front mudguards

• Nose panel

• Boot lid or rear hatch

• Bonnet

Original fittings must be retained (e.g. hinges / bonnet locks)

The minimum specifications of alternative materials shall be respected:

• Aluminium-1.25mm thick

• Fibres/reinforced plastic 3mm thick

Again - despite that rule I am allowed to run my Z-Tune body kit because it is a Nismo factory option.

The gearbox rule states

M19. Gearbox / Transmission / Final Drive

• The casings and housings must be the same as originally fitted to the vehicle.

• The number of forward gears must be standard; otherwise the internal components are free.

• The gear change mechanisms must be as originally specified for the vehicle, other than that shortened or ‘quick’ shifters which do not result in

modification to the casings or housings are permitted. Sequential shift mechanisms are not permitted.

My mistake was that I understood the rules were if you could buy something from Nissan/Nismo that were built for a GT-R you could legally run with it. I have had this further clariffied now and I am 100% happy with the decision that has been reached. Would have been nice for them to actually check the list of "post scrutiny" items on all podium finishers though as I know I wouldn't have been the only car excluded - although I would have been the only one excluded for a non peformance enhancing item.

There were apparently I'm told a zillion rumours about my car all week about other stuff, but I have NEVER owned a 2.8L engine even when I ran the car as a Z-Tune last year, and the 2860-5's turbo's came off at the start of the year when I had to run the 3" exhaust at Wrestpoint (because anyone with brains will know -5's would suck balls with a 3" exhaust so the N1's are an 11ty times better option).

The reason for the 5 speed was simple. When I first got the car I kept breaking the shift drums and each time it was a $5K repair. As it was I could only buy Supra parts since Nissan would only supply a full box for $12K. I'm not 100% convinced that the Supra parts are the same as everyone who repairs their R34 boxes seem to continue to have issues like I did. So I swap to the "cheap" option. It was only a financial decision - not a performance one (although the 5 speed was better for Dutton stuff but the 6 speed would be MUCH better for Targa stuff). The stupid thing is I still have my 6 speed sitting in my garage next to my -5 turbo's, Tien suspension and 3.5" exhaust so if I knew it was illegal I would have put the 6 speed back in again!

Anyhoo - onto bigger and better things. The question now is do I rebuild it as another N1 or do I now go and build an R34 ATTKD GT-R. Check out it's specs!

Here are the highlights.

HKS 2.8L

HKS 2530's

HKS V Cam

Ikeya Formula Suspension Arms

Hollinger Sequential 6 Speed

Carbon Fibre Doors, Hood and Trunk

The full specs are below:

Nissan Skyline GT-R R34 ATTKD

Specs

Skyline Gt-R

Max Power: 631.2whp

Car

Bnr34 Nissan Skyline Gt-R

Engine

"Base Engine: Rb26dett", "Power: 631.2hp, 17psi Of Boost Pressure", "Weight: 3064lbs.", "Hks 2.8l Stroker Kit", "Twin Hks Gt2530 Turbochargers", "Stock Exhaust Manifold", "Hks Vcam System", "Jun 280-Degree Exhaust Hicam", "Attkd Titanium Exhaust System", "Attkd Titanium Downpipe", "Attkd High-Flow Catalytic Converter", "Hks Twin Powerflow Intake Kit", "Arc Front-Mount Intercooler", "Hks Intercooler Piping", "Nismo Fuel Pump", "Power Enterprise 800cc/Min Fuel Injectors", "Hks F-Con V Pro D-Jetro", "Hks Evc Pro Boost Controller", "Stock Radiator", "Attkd Radiator Overflow Tank", "Samco Silicone Radiator Hoses", "Pitwork Radiator Cap", "Hks Oil Filler Cap", "Hks Oil Cooler Kit", "Oil Catch Tank", "Painted Valve Cover And Intake Manifold", "Attkd Motor Oil"

Drivetrain

"Hollinger Six-Speed Sequential Transmission"

"Ats Carbon Clutch"

"Ats Pressure Plate"

"Ats Carbon Limited-Slip Differential"

"Attkd Differential Oil"

"Attkd Transmission Fluid"

Suspension

"Attkd Adjustable Coilovers"

"Attkd Coilover Springs"

"Nismo Front Tower Bar"

"Attkd Roll Center Adjusters"

"Ikeya Formula Suspension Arms"

"Stitch Welded Chassis"

Brakes

"Endless Six-Piston Front Calipers"

"Endless Four-Piston Rear Calipers"

"Endless 355mm Front Two-Piece Brake Rotors"

"Endless 330mm Rear Brake Rotors"

"Endless Na-R Brake Pads"

Wheels & Tires

"Volk Racing Gold 18-Inch Ce28n Wheels"

"Dunlop Direzza Z1 Tires, 265/35/18 All Around"

Exterior

"Attkd Front Bumper"

"Attkd Dry Carbon Fiber Hood"

"Attkd Dry Carbon Fiber Doors"

"Attkd Dry Carbon Fiber Trunk"

"Attkd Gt Wing Spec 3"

Interior

"Stack Meter Display"

"Eclipse Avn4405d Double-Din Headunit"

"Hks A/F Knock Amp"

"Six-Point Roll Cage"

"Recaro Spg Driver's Bucket Seat"

"Sabelt Red Driver's Harness"

"Momo Steering Wheel"

"Backseat Removed"

Stupid that running that would be ok but me running a full spec N1 with a 5 speed gearbox is excludable.

[Marlin]

Good morning all, I've gorn cross eyed!

Thanks for the call yesterday Greggy, was transitioning from one plane to another when I listened to your message. I'll give you a call soon mate.

[Snowman]

Oh - and well done to Jeff and Nerida on their gold plate.

After seeing how damn hard it was just to finish one event getting one of those has to be as hard - if not harder - that getting on the podium. Especially if everyone of those events you are driving them at podium getting speeds.

Not bad for grandparents.

[floody]

So the ATTKD cars are homologated in some sense? Documented? Can't even find a definitive spec on their website. Surely an almost unknown, scarcely verifiable spec is a bit ridiculous for eligibility...

I mean could I enter early modern in a R31House Season Two HR31 GTS-R, with a ball bearing T04, hand made spaghetti stainless manifold, Blitz cooler, Brembos, Kakimoto exhaust, RB25DET box etc that they put in their 'complete' package cars? What makes some workshop special eligible as a base specification?

Edited May 4, 2010 by floody

[essay]

Why not introduce an 'Open Category' (say below 10 built from manufacturer) and lump all these obscure specials with anyone who wants to run a car modified away from standard?