Tarmac Rallying Perpetual Thread

[kimbod]

Well Marlin , what is it then. ?

[Targa Tom]

LOL!!!! A realiability trial you say!?!?! Please sir... do go on..............

+1

[Roy]

Phew, what a read. Let me get this straight. 1 car is legal though it is special and produced in limited numbers and cleared by the organisers as such and the other car has a 5 speed box , knowing that is illegal as the model didn't come with a 5 speed box.

I think the moderators should have stepped in and stopped the shit flying around on hearsay and innuendo. Does not look good in this community of Nissan fans.

Other than that congratulations to all the Nissan competitors in what is really a reliability trial.

COME ONE! This is the internet, where even middle aged men get to behave like 15 year old boys again!

The whole thing does my head in. So genuinely curious, can an EVO IV run an EVO VI 5 speed box. Same for an R32 GTR run an R33 GTR gearbox or vice versa? If i built an GTSt can i run any RB20 from any year model of Nissan, so Z31 300zx , R31 or R32 etc. ??? If its fundamentally the same I expect that you will be able to run it. Not saying this is the case with the 6 spd vs 5 spd as that is pretty clear cut. But an R32 GTR running an R33 engine with associated crank and oil pump etc would be more reliable then a later model engine. Ditto some of the later model RB20 engines are far superior to the earlier engines. Can i run a later model RB20 in my R32 GTSt ?

[marinetowing]

COME ONE! This is the internet, where even middle aged men get to behave like 15 year old boys again!

The whole thing does my head in. So genuinely curious, can an EVO IV run an EVO VI 5 speed box.

Yes I believe that is the case as Evo IV-IX 5 speed boxes are all the same.

[giant]

Serious question

Can an r32gtr run a holinger gearbox as they are group A homologated?

As they were running the same kind of circuit racing the lambo is.

[Rowdy]

Just wait until i build a limited build of R32 GTSts with RB24 and TD06s. Every stage will be reduced to a touring stage after they drop their guts all over the road or cut down trees obstructing the road....they are going to need hefty cages

hah ha count me in for build number 1...

or we could just run stock with bald federals?

roy your a character, and kudos for keeping at least half of this thread lighthearted.

all the bullshit politics behind the scenes stuff is asphyxiating my enthusiasm. but snowy's and YT's vid's are keeping it healthy

following keenly, cheers, Rowdy.

[Roy]

Serious question

Can an r32gtr run a holinger gearbox as they are group A homologated?

As they were running the same kind of circuit racing the lambo is.

Why not? I just looked up my VIN on FAST and my GTSt came out of the same factory as a GTR, So pretty sure i can run an RB26. Also, may be able to use the gearbox as its cheaper then a std RB20 box i will just use the argument of being a cheaper aftermarket equivelant.

In case you are being serious, and you werent taking the piss out of my silly hypotheticals , i cant see it. Grp A as a class meant there were freedoms and this included gearboxes. Just as in Targa brakes are free and you can do whatever you like. In Grp A since gearboxes were free they ran the 6 spds. In the case of the uber Lambos that are running around on circuits in Europe etc, I understand the Holinger 6 spd is common accross them all....so that seems to make them legal. Happy to be corrected though.

Anyway, more vids...especially in the wet. They remind me that this stuff takes talent and self control....and I am waiting for that new drug that just got released in the UK that stops lads from blowing their loads too quickly....that demonstrates how little control i have!

...oh an dont encourage me Rowdy, I whore this otherwise good thread too much already...and Marlin is bad enough at baiting me with GTSt > R33 GTR comments already!

[Duncan]

Serious question

Can an r32gtr run a holinger gearbox as they are group A homologated?

As they were running the same kind of circuit racing the lambo is.

per Andrew's posting of the rules....internals are free, casing is not, sequentials are banned (not sure where that stands with factory sequentials of course)

Group A homologation is not eligible for Targa, it is Group N homologation that matters AFAIK

[giant]

Ahh ok, damn

Not that it would help me step on any podium. But damn good fun

[PHaT MR30]

I'll upload some video's as soon as I figure out how to upload them to the 'tube. Do you have to compress them or anything before uploading?

[Marlin]

Well Marlin , what is it then. ?

I just think you were selling it a little short. I'm guessing you haven't been there? Competed or spectated? Whilst it would be much easier to drive around and just "finish", actually competing for a position, as most of us here are keen to do, takes much, much more than just reliability. (Bit different on SAU versus your mates on the Emo forums hey Greg and Snowpuff )

It certailnly is paramount to have a strong reliable car, especially if you want to have a crack.

The time put into a recce reflects directly on how well you do.

Keeping your mind absolutely "on it" for the duration is absolutely one of the hardest things I've done. I had a little "off" last year that proves what two five seconds lack of concentration can do.

The logistics of where and when to obtain fuel and juggle a service crew is also a challenge.

Then there's the fact you need a crew that can get on with eachother for two weeks in a car, its harder than you think, and the next navigator that simply gets out on a driver will not be the first.

Oh, and finally, you shouldn't crash.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Marlin

[Targa Tom]

I just think you were selling it a little short. I'm guessing you haven't been there? Competed or spectated? Whilst it would be much easier to drive around and just "finish", actually competing for a position, as most of us here are keen to do, takes much, much more than just reliability. (Bit different on SAU versus your mates on the Emo forums hey Greg and Snowpuff )

It certailnly is paramount to have a strong reliable car, especially if you want to have a crack.

The time put into a recce reflects directly on how well you do.

Keeping your mind absolutely "on it" for the duration is absolutely one of the hardest things I've done. I had a little "off" last year that proves what two five seconds lack of concentration can do.

The logistics of where and when to obtain fuel and juggle a service crew is also a challenge.

Then there's the fact you need a crew that can get on with eachother for two weeks in a car, its harder than you think, and the next navigator that simply gets out on a driver will not be the first.

Oh, and finally, you shouldn't crash.

Just knew you could condense it into a few words... Would have taken me for ever to say that, then would have been side tracked.

When I first entered Targa, a chap that was with me on the Spirit a year previous said "If you are going in Targa, read the rules, read the rules, chose a car then read the rules again"

He was refering to Classic which runs on handicap, when a mod may mean you have to complete the stage 1se/k quicker than the opposition when it only gives you a .25sec performance gain.

I have taken that approach every year, even though modern is different it is the same... ie GTS-T (MS) 1300kg v GTR 1700kg (LMS) (R32 I'm Talking)

As for evo stuff, it is a mystery to me how a Evo IX Bathurst LE TMR conforms to "showroom" It cannot even be registered in Oz. The model however is availble X factory in Nippon ie GSR with only the TTS option.

As for the IX, there have been a few "Showroom" GSRs runniing (colour coded door handles easy pick) and they have AYC, ABS MT/6 ACD. (that is what we ran last year) In Australia however like South Africa, they only come with single boost control solenoid... (we ran in 07/08).

The TMR built vehicles are an RS or GT, which have dual solenoid, but also mech diffs MT/5 and ACD.... it is my opinion that you have to run either/or but not a mixture - hence last year we ran a std front evo (understeer inducing) front diff. Next time out it will suit the rules, ie built to them, rather than build the car then see where it sits...

For the record, the woo keeps banging on about recce, and if there are any future players here I will reinforce his point. You cannot do enough!! last year we did 3 weeks in an evo ix, the last week fitted with my showroom DMS suspension. We regraded every stage - some had 2 - 3 changes others many. Some grades went from 3.5 to 5 which is an increase of 30kph at apex. Eg Kayena, we arrived at the chicane flat in 5th compared to plucking 4th the previous year.... we were 17seconds quicker and that gave us enough confidence to drive the event to our notes.

In summary, read the rules 5 times, and recce 2 days for every day of racing.... The difference between recce and performance is recce gets you through the turns quicker - and there are lots of 'em

TT

Edited May 5, 2010 by Targa Tom

[Roy]

I am guessing Kimbod knows a bit about Targa, lists car as R34 N1, he is a "SHIRE" Lad so guessing he has been involved with the Just Jap guys at a time?!?!?!?!

Much like the dirt rally stuff which i used to crew for from time to time, the logistics of these events is what amazes me. The management required by organiser of events is huge, and that is reflected with the level of management required by teams, from fuel, servicing, hotels, meals etc. Transport... scary

[Marlin]

Yeah I read thats what he says he's got and that's where he comes from, but can't say I know Kimbod

That is why I included question marks when I asked if he's competed or spectated. Maybe it's Mr Moore behind the screen? Buggered if I know.

[Roy]

I wish i could say i will one day compete, but the best i will ever do is something like High Country. There is a chance I will be there in a car this year, its looking more and more likely by the week at the moment as the pendulum has swung and most likely returning to Aus. But i will never be as committed as you lot of crazies who invest so much time and energy into such a large event! The shorter events are more likely therfore appealing for me.

Is the tarmac stuff much like the dirt stuff where the navs pay there own way, half entry etc, or throw in or are there costs generally pooled/covered in with the car and entry? Probably rather variable depending on circumstances. But for instance the BP Rally that is kicking off this week, i know many of he navs go a long way to almost splitting the costs of the event with the driver, simply because the owner of the car assumes the expense of preparing the car?!?!??!?!?!

[PHaT MR30]

I wish i could say i will one day compete, but the best i will ever do is something like High Country. There is a chance I will be there in a car this year, its looking more and more likely by the week at the moment as the pendulum has swung and most likely returning to Aus. But i will never be as committed as you lot of crazies who invest so much time and energy into such a large event! The shorter events are more likely therfore appealing for me.

Is the tarmac stuff much like the dirt stuff where the navs pay there own way, half entry etc, or throw in or are there costs generally pooled/covered in with the car and entry? Probably rather variable depending on circumstances. But for instance the BP Rally that is kicking off this week, i know many of he navs go a long way to almost splitting the costs of the event with the driver, simply because the owner of the car assumes the expense of preparing the car?!?!??!?!?!

Generally not Roy, majority of Tarmac competitors are fairly cashed up dudes. The old Navigator pays the entry is an old school train of though and really in my eyes its the driver COMPETING and a good navigator is just part of their preparation.

In fact I know of quite a few navigators at targa (in top level teams) that are actually paid!

In your smaller state level events where guys are struggling just to get their car to the start line there is a little unwritten law that the nav pays the entry fee, but your talking about a $250 entry as opposed to a $7,000 entry. Even then I don't know of many in our series that still do this.

[Marlin]

It depends on how wealthy and/or how good mates the crew is Bris.

I've paid half costs as a Nav, because I loved it and treated it as a yearly holiday with a great mate, Tim helped out substantially last year, and treated it much the same.

Some Navs get all expenses paid, and thats usually when they're teaming up with someone they don't really know (as I did in 2007), and some get paid (usually the ones that are semi-pro and actually write their own notes as opposed to reading/modifying a purchased set).

[t01-100]

Wow, I don't think this thread has ever seen so much comment is such a short space of time. I'll address the key points I see and leave everyone else to arm wrestle in the school yard about the rest.

999 Competition Sweep - These rules have remained static since around 2003. Well done to the guys that played the game and used them to their advantage. Although some people have become vocal on this topic it is important to note not one single complaint was heard pre-event about this regulation, therefore I believe it’s unreasonable for someone to take issue with another entrant’s result post-event on this basis alone.

The above said, review of this topic, as well as many other items will be made prior to the first round of the World Targa Championship this year (Targa High Country).

Low Volume Vehicles – A process is available for anyone wanting to make application for the inclusion of a low volume model within the event. Should the event's technical committee believe the model is a reasonable technical fit and importantly is within the spirit of the event then it may be approved to for competition.

Models that have followed this process in the past including both tuned, prototype (at time of the event) and genuine production models including Skelta G-Force, Holden Monaro CV8 T3, Ford Falcon XR6 Turbo, Mazda MX5 SP, Mazda RX7 SP, Mazda RX8 SP, Hyundai Tiburon SR, Nizpro 200SX-R, Alfa Romeo GTV Turbo Cup, Subaru Impreza WRX STi PMS25, Lamborghini Gallardo Superleggera R as well as various Lotus, Alpina and many others.

The Autech ATTKD Select R was approved for use at Targa Tasmania prior to the event this year along with the Modern competition winning Gallardo Super Trofeo Strata. There are reams of documentation held by the event on both models as the process is lengthy. In some cases the entire spec of the vehicle may not be acceptable and adjustment required to meet eligibility criteria... eg. 75kg of additional weight and roll cage modification required to be used by the Skelta.

This area of the event is also a topic under review so please feel free to contact the event if you wish to enter an as yet unapproved vehicle as the regulations may be altered going forward.

Car 806 - Andrew's car did indeed fail the post-event technical inspection due to a gearbox irregularity, identified by scrutineers and confirmed by a GT-R expert from Japan. This vehicle, along cars 895 (R33) and 831 (R34) were inspected for technical compliance in the Early Modern competition on Sunday 2 May. This technical check included measurement and visual inspection of various components of the engine, drive train and chassis, as well as datadot tyres, fuel test and engine stroke measurement.

Andrew’s exclusion was open to protest from him as the entrant of car 806, an option he did not choose to take up.

I meet with Andrew a few hours after the event, congratulated him on crossing the line first in what must have been a very challenging drive and bought him a beer.

I did not tell that Andrew to keep the trophies, as firstly it’s not my place to make such a call, and secondly, if I were in Andrew's position I wouldn't want the reminder of a tainted result.

The official winner of Early Modern at Targa Tasmania 2010 was Brendan Manion in car 895 and well done to him in what is his best result to date in a genuine R33 N1, a car that has previously scored second outright in the Modern competition.

Car 806 was not protested by another entrant, it simply failed the organisers compulsory post-event inspection. Disappointingly Andrew told me he simply had not familiarised himself with the key regulation relating to his situation with the gearbox. This highlights an important item - if you are unsure of how a technical regulation relates to your vehicle please ask the question of the organisers to ensure the greatest technical compliance, not matter what the event or competition you are entering.

I hope that the many members of the SAU community enjoyed their Targa Tasmania experience this year (however wet it might have been!) and are looking forward to next year, or the upcoming Targa season kicking off on 5 November at Targa High Country!

If anyone has questions relating to my above comments or any other, please feel free to email or call me.

[Marlin]

I have a question.......... but I'll email you.

[sav man]

I wish i'd read all the sup regs in detail and not just the tech section in 09, as we got stuck in a stage, and ended up missing the next one. Derived time + pen would have been heaps better than the 40 mins of penalty we got.