Tarmac Rallying Perpetual Thread

[Darkside]

Sorry to hear about the fail Dan. Sounds like you guys were smokin up until that point. Great debut drive. Shame to get let down mechanically.

So are you guessing the new tune was a bit too angry or was it unrelated to the tune??

Has Matt Lowth ever tuned the car? He would be my pick on the east coast for an EMO....especially reflashed stock ECU. Dont think he touches standalones. ....not sure what you guys are running.

[PHaT MR30]

This event seemed to be pretty hard on cars!

From the sounds of it Dan & Sammy's problem was a fuel pump on the blink which finally leaned it out enough to say goodbye to a couple of pistons. I was really impressed with Dan's times for his first rally, straight off the bat he was quick and consistent all weekend. I was puzzled when I saw a stage time for them, but hadn't seen them come to the service park. Then an utterly bad feeling when they were both walking up to the stop point.

Hopefully it can be fixed for reasonable $$ and you will be back for more.

Danny and I had a good weekend even if it was a bit trying at times. Picked the car up on Friday, drove to Marysville and jumped in the car, straight away something was not right, it felt like it had no power! After mucking around with the maps, we ended up loading an old map which was really only meant for short track hill climbs. But it worked.

Saturday morning stages, went well till about the 4th where we lost the clutch. Completed the stage in 4th gear, luckily they called a lunch break so we could inspect it. Turned out the metal line into the slave cylinder had snapped off. With some help from the boys at TMR they managed to flare the line and get us back going. No further problems for the day and we kept getting quicker.

Sunday morning, we hit hard while the road was still cool, posting our fastest time of the weekend which was a 4:36. the following two runs were just as good and in the mid 37's. We then noticed the exhaust was slightly louder, leaking from somewhere. Didn't let it bother us, except that on 4th run off the line an electrical fault which plagued us at High Country showed up again and in the same breath the exhaust manifold cracked quite badly. So with no power/boost/anything we crawled up the mountain, around a minute and a half slower than previously. What to do?

The manifold had cracked and opened up like a big valve. TMR to the rescue again! It was a bandage solution, but for the time we had to fix it in and limited resources it woudl have to do. I did the sums and we had enough of a gap to 3rd place that if we could limp it up there we could still finish 2nd outright and 2nd in the championship.

So with fire extinguishers at the ready we started our final run up the mountain. It was quite hilarious, so slow and at times I had to keep telling danny to keep his speed up cos I didn't think we were going to make it in time! But we did it!

So now the car gets a good rest and a big birthday for next year so we can continue competing in the ATRC, but our main focus will be a red hot crack at Targa.

here are a couple of vids for your viewing pleasure

Barrel Hit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arAUmkCPBl4&hd=1

Fastest Time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWUYZy-wrZo&hd=1

[Darkside]

^^^^ Great write up Tim. The timesheets never give a feel for the drama that is going on in the background. Excellent result on its own but even better given the dramas. Good to get all these bugs shaken out prior to a targa tas assault.

Sorry to hear about Dan/Sammy s fuel pump problem. That bites that such a relatively inexpensive part can cause such dramas.... Hmmm fuel pressure sensor on the new car for me maybe?

[navdan]

Dan/Blaise, the best explanation we can come up with is a lazy fuel pump. It seems as though that has been our problem since High Country as we had the same 'miss' type feeling this weekend as we did at THC and the fuel pump is the only part of the fuel system we didn't replace.

So while powering toward the finish line on the second stage of Sunday morning at something nudging 215ks i felt a loss of power and a light vibration so immediately backed out of it and found neutral but by that time it had gone.

Inspection of the plugs found cylinders 1, 2 and 3 all with melted electrodes and cylinders 1 and 2 with pistons resembling swiss cheese. So far #4 seem ok...one guess which cylinder is closest to the feed end of the fuel rail

Timmy, thanks for the wrap and well done to you and Mr T...Hendy's 34 is a weapon and wouldve taken serious beating.

I knew it was on for young and old when my very first rally stage was a 4:55 at Lake Mountain including a massive dose of oppy lock at the first corner. From then on I just did what I felt comfortable with resulting in a fastest time (recorded on stopwatch) of 4:44, with official time of 4:46 (there was a slight discrepancy all weekend)

More importantly, if we take the official time, I matched Sammy's best ever time there...perfect for a harmonious marriage

Now to try rebuild and get back out there.

Because racecar

[Darkside]

Ah Dan,

thats shit luck. I never replaced the pump in my emo, although that said, I started off with new ones and i never really kept it long enough to need to I guess. I went the walbro intank and then an external 044 to keep the fuel up for the E85. But if either one failed I would have found myself in the same situation. Definitely something I will be more onto in future. Hope the build isnt too painful. And seems you ran the perfect pace. Dont want to be out pacing the missus on debut.

What would be the prevention in future? Knock meter? Fuel pressure sensor?

Do what you can to sort the E85. A mate had a similar thing happen at the track but with E85 det resistance the power fell off without the engine detting and killing itself. Was able to sort the fuel system and get back out there.

[sav man]

no easy way round the fuel thing. AFR or Fuel pressure are the only ways to monitor the problem, but either way the warning light needs some smarts. eg needs to know what lambda should be at a given load/rpm point, ot be able to calculate what the fuel pressure should be at a given boost level.

Gauges are good, but realisticly you can't read them while racing. I found that on the weekend when I finished a super sprint and my dash had a big fat 0 next to oil pressure. My warning light didn't go off because it didn't config it properly!!11!1

Edited November 27, 2012 by sav man

[poolheaters]

Bad luck Dan, You were doing extremely well till then, very consistant too! What was the single most impressive part of the car from a now drivers perspective?

Another thought is to check you are not getting fuel starvation (very similar tell tale traits..) Melinda did an engine in the Skyline at Wrest point a few years back. We thought it was fuel pump for sure, but did some testing after and found that under a third of a tank in an R32 Skyline led to serious starvation on long right hand corners. Was never a problem in the R33, but different fuel tanks. Not sure what fuel loads/fuel system you were running, just a thought..

Tim, saw the photo of the wire up job on the exhaust, reminded me of a gravel rally bodge job, good to see that it worked. Looked like an aftermarket extractor type manifold? All the gravel guys running these are changing them every few events as they just don't seem to be able to handle the heat and punishment that a standard cast manifold can?

cheers

paul

[navdan]

I've got a fuel setup in mind for the future after having a nice long chat with Tim Hendy and a good look in the boot of his rocket. Lift pump to swirl pot then (as you had Blaise) Bosch 044 with a spare plumbed and ready to go at the flick of a switch. Should be foolproof

Paul, I would have thought fuel starvation except that we were travelling in a straight line with only a short 10 right just prior to it giving up (plus we drained the tank of 20ish litres) which is really pushing me toward the pump. Ah well..we have a good option in a freshly built motor with just over 100kms done on it for a reasonable price available immediately so no xmas presents for anyone this year

Paul as far as the setup is concerned and how the car feels from the driver's seat, it's just so predictable, never trying to chuck us off the road or swap ends. It does reward smooth inputs as I found out on Saturday while trying to press on a little, losing 4 secs on my fastest time and just being a little ragged. Bumps I'd marked in recce i took out of the notes on the first stage as they didnt affect the car one bit (gotta love those Murrays ) When I get home tonight I'll throw some incar up.

The new brakes are amazing with the best feel and stopping power I've ever experienced. We don't have power assistance so have this lovely solid pedal with minimal travel. (except for the one bit of pad knock I got on stage 3...brake pedal on the floor over the finish line at 215k woke me up!!)

So all in all it was an awesome weekend with a disappointing end.

Fingers crossed that the Australian Tarmac Rally Championship gets more entrants next year. Although it doesn't have the 'prestige' of the Targa events, it is affordable, fun and the relaxed atmosphere is a welcome surpirse, yet they still use some of the best roads in Victoria.

[LotusGTR]

Fingers crossed that the Australian Tarmac Rally Championship gets more entrants next year. Although it doesn't have the 'prestige' of the Targa events, it is affordable, fun and the relaxed atmosphere is a welcome surpirse, yet they still use some of the best roads in Victoria.

This. It's a friendly approachable scene and a great entry point into the sport. Be very daunting setting out on your first Tarmac Rally if it was THC, TWP, TT and without the benefit of doing some touring stuff to get your eye in and do some homework.

[Marlin]

Very sorry to see your woes Dan, but stoked with how well you took to it! Good times ahead! That a bloody fuel pump failed is damn hard luck MoBro!

On fuel supply; Anyone running a rally car that doesn't feature a decently sized and tall swirl pot is asking for trouble I think. Given the long stages run, and the fact we're often VERY low on fuel, no factory tank can hope to retain fuel pressure through corners at very low tank levels. Being forced to keep a tank topped off where possible to avoid starvation is a bit counter productive .

I'm keen to sample a Mountain MS event, might even do so once this bloody boat that's draining the wallet is completed.

Edited: thanks Danny!

X!

Edited November 27, 2012 by Marlin

[No Crust Racing]

As has been said, that's some really tough luck Dan, especially given the previous issues.

I think the most important aspect of all of this is how well you were doing and that you managed to match the missus times, bloody fantastic

[navdan]

On fuel supply; Anyone running a rally car that doesn't feature a decently sized and tall swirl pot is asking for trouble I think.

MoFixed!

The best part of the MMSports events is that we don't have to spend a fortune floating the car/trailer over the ditch...oh and the fact that rally HQ was at a pub and Washo insisted everyone was there on Saturday night for, erm, dinner. Yeah dinner! HA

[Marlin]

Fixed it. Thanks Newcombe!

[Darkside]

Sounds like you are on the right track Dan. Just be weary that if your fuel system ends up in the boot, you need to enclose the rear firewall to separate it from the main cabin of the car. Not hard to do. A thin sheet of ali will do it. I did it on my emo as I had that 20l supp tank in the boot for E85 range. I think its the same if you have a surge tank and pumps in there. Can always get them under the rear of the car pretty easy though.

Am definitely learning from your drama. Will definitely be looking to have any fuel system anomalies talking to the motec in the new car.

[PHaT MR30]

Tim, saw the photo of the wire up job on the exhaust, reminded me of a gravel rally bodge job, good to see that it worked. Looked like an aftermarket extractor type manifold? All the gravel guys running these are changing them every few events as they just don't seem to be able to handle the heat and punishment that a standard cast manifold can?

cheers

paul

Yeh, bush mechanics! It was a cheap nasty Kmac manifold and it had done 7 rallies and already been repaired somewhere else. So was well over due for replacement. Been doing some research on other options there.

MoFixed!

The best part of the MMSports events is that we don't have to spend a fortune floating the car/trailer over the ditch...oh and the fact that rally HQ was at a pub and Washo insisted everyone was there on Saturday night for, erm, dinner. Yeah dinner! HA

Dinner/Fish Heads/Beer/Beer/Beer/Pitman/Simsy/JD all make it a good night. Was there a rally on?

[navdan]

Just be weary that if your fuel system ends up in the boot, you need to enclose the rear firewall to separate it from the main cabin of the car. Not hard to do.

Am definitely learning from your drama. Will definitely be looking to have any fuel system anomalies talking to the motec in the new car.

Already have a nice big sheet of Aly as a rear firewall and can you do me a favour...learn from someone else, I'm over breaking things

Dinner/Fish Heads/Beer/Beer/Beer/Pitman/Simsy/JD all make it a good night. Was there a rally on?

Ahahaha I'd forgotten about the fish head. I do remember clearly seeing Simsy at his worst on Sunday morning though.

[poolheaters]

Sounds like you are on the right track Dan. Just be weary that if your fuel system ends up in the boot, you need to enclose the rear firewall to separate it from the main cabin of the car. Not hard to do. A thin sheet of ali will do it. I did it on my emo as I had that 20l supp tank in the boot for E85 range. I think its the same if you have a surge tank and pumps in there. Can always get them under the rear of the car pretty easy though.

Am definitely learning from your drama. Will definitely be looking to have any fuel system anomalies talking to the motec in the new car.

We have the surge tank etc in the boot, but mounted in a liquid/acid proof battery box sealed to the floor and vented to under the car, so technically keeps the fuel system still external to the cabin. Saves on stinky fuel smelling interior too. One thing I have noticed now though is with this system the fuel temps are alot higher, without the advantage of the area of the standard tank to cool the return fuel.

Experimented at Lakeside last year. Put 5kg of bagged ice around the surge tank, Mel did 5 laps, and when she came back you could have made a nice cup of tea from the hot water in the bag! Don't quite know the answer to this one yet, maybe refit the air con and run a precooler through the evaporator ala Porsche Turbos? Has to be sapping power throwing in fuel at 30-40 degrees by the end of a long stage..

[navdan]

Paul, how about running the return back to the standard tank, or am I completely missing something here?

[Duncan]

unfortunately that's not how it works really. The fuel line needs to return to the swirl pot to keep the pot full (along with the low flow lift pump). The main pump then drains the swirl pot. Once the swirl pot is full it overflows back to the main tank.

If you return the drain to the tank your lift pump would have to be bigger than the main pump to keep it full.

I've definately had higher fuel temps since running a swirl pot.

BTW mine is under the car, there is lots of space under the rear seat on a 32 gtr. no smell, noise, leaks etc.

[blackrex]

You can use a small 4~7 row oil cooler as a fuel cooler if you are worried about temps being to high as well, they can easily take the pressure, just make sure that they have airflow ducted to them, and are shielded from damage.