Tarmac Rallying Perpetual Thread

[NickR33]

Yep Newton can steer alright, some of my favourite DECA vids are in-cars of big red... crazy

can you change diff ratios in targa? I reckon the 6 speed would be the way to go once you've got the 4.11 in there... but then again I'm with Brisby, I know a whole lot about nothing;)

[Beer Baron]

Now now boys..... saying the 5 speed isn't a benefit but rather a cost saving is utter bullshit.

To win Targa first you have to finish it, so yes, reliability is very important (it is NOT however just a reliabilty trial, that is an insult).

Therefore, running the stonger, yet ILLEGAL, 5 speed box is definately a benefit.

Just because the R34's LEGAL gearbox is a six speed, does NOT make it instantly better. In fact, it's simply not, not for this type of racing. The R34 GTR is hopelessly tall geared, 6th never seeing use because the car won't pull it, and the diff gears are tall meaning less punch out of corners.

So cut the "it's not a performance enhancing mod so should be allowed" crap. That argument is baseless and I'll say it again, CRAP.

So, that's TWO plusses for the 5 speed box. The third (although how this matters when the event costs$20k to do) is cost.

I run an RB20 gearbox in my car, because that's what is legal. Everyone else running my model of car runs the RB25 gearbox, which is ILLEGAL. But, those slow guys don't get on the podium, therefore finishing the event is more important to them than legality, because the legality side of it will never worry them.

I have to be very aware of my weaker RB20 gearbox because as said, to do well you need to finish. And that is one of the other challenges with this event, you need to be aware of your particualr vehicle's weaknesses, and allow for same accordingly. Hey, the WRX guys have been doing it for years.

For all you guys saying improvements should be allowed for reliability, I'm sorry, you're simply wrong. Different cars need to have different strengths and weaknesses to keep it interesting.

I'm not aiming this at Snowy, he's a good fella, but a little reality check is needed here.

i didn't say it was or wasn't an improvement. I said it's irrelevant whether it's an improvement or not. the car was excluded because the gearbox it ran with is illegal under the rules not because it's more reliable, or because it's painted pink or because you put tenga egg sponsorship on it. none of those things matter. purely is it legal? yes = ok. no = exclusion. 100% I agree it should have been excluded. it broke the rules.

I agree standard 6th gear is useless for this kind of car and event. it makes your top speed purely academic as with the roads and the limited power you are never going to get there. but a close ratio 6 speed with stronger gears and geared to a top speed of say 260 or so is miles better than a 33 5 speed or a standard 34 getrag and is currently allowed under the rules (as I understand them a new gearset of same number of gears in standard casing is ok). my point was perhaps things need to change a little. evo guys can run 5 or 6 speed cause RS and GT models had the 5 speed CR box. it would be nice if 32 guys could run the 33 5 speed and let 34 drivers run either the 33 5speed or if they have the dough run a $$$ close ratio 6 speed. as I said the CR 6 is always going to be better than a 33 5 speed. but they are two separate debates. to make it clear of course if you break the rules you should be excluded and it wouldn't matter if the gearbox improved things or not. if it's against the rules you have to cop it.

[Beer Baron]

ok, lol. speaking of boxes, for some entertainment check out this vid of a nice RX3 from 09 TT. check out the wacky shift action! it seems to me like 1st gear and 4th gear are in the same spot. which is where 3rd gear would normally be?!?! cause it goes first in the top middle, 2nd is top left, 3rd bottom left, 4th top middle 5th bottom middle. although I guess 1st is actually way over where 5th would be normally but in the vid it's hard to tell. certainly pretty confusing!

[PHaT MR30]

That must be a fairly popular shift pattern in dogboxes Beer Baron as the new PAR box in our gravel Sprinter is the same, and a mates IP RX7 is the same. I guess it gets first out of the way so you can just work the H pattern.

[sav man]

I think the lay out is like this:

241

35

weird wankle people

[Snowman]

Shit is this still going on?

Hopefully once and for all...

1. The gearbox went in initially for financial reasons only. I don't care what anyone else thinks is the case.

2. After having driven both if I was allowed to choose I would pick the 32/33 no doubt. My reason would be simply because it is easier to drive than the 6 speed and its cheaper to maintain. I think both systems have their good and bad points from a performance view. I doubt my times would have been sweet F.A. different no matter which system I had in there.

3. I doubt there is a full running R34 drivetrain in tarmac out there anyways which is the funny part. Gearboxes are probably fine though but the rest is too hard to deal with.

4. I distinctly remember someone asking for a GTS4 diff during the event for a GTR.

5. Some people passing judgement should look closely in the mirror.

6. I'm over it and I'm going back to work.

[Marlin]

I remember the same re someone asking around for a GTS4 diff

Glass houses comes to mind

So anyway, whats next? High Country looks the goods! We're doing Mt Stuart next month as a nice little filler

[sav man]

you taking the gtst to mt stuart?

[warps]

I think the lay out is like this:

241

35

weird wankle people

Yup

Not necessarily a wankel thing (although they are a weird mob for various other reasons)

I had a Needham box for my RX2 which had the same pattern. Basically any RWD where you're chasing a 1:1 5th gear, you change the positions around so that 5th is where 4th used to be. Why? Because 4th is commonly 1:1 on RWD 5 speeds, and is actually direct drive (ie shafts are coupled together without any gear mesh) so very hard to change to any other ratio. This is the simplest way to do it, and the next logical progression is to keep the rest of the gears in a standard H pattern as much as possible. Since 1st is the least commonly usd gear, and it's not in the normal upshift sequence, it's easiest to put 1st where 5th used to be, and leave the rest in a standard H pattern.

Make sense? Simple

[Beer Baron]

Yup

Not necessarily a wankel thing (although they are a weird mob for various other reasons)

I had a Needham box for my RX2 which had the same pattern. Basically any RWD where you're chasing a 1:1 5th gear, you change the positions around so that 5th is where 4th used to be. Why? Because 4th is commonly 1:1 on RWD 5 speeds, and is actually direct drive (ie shafts are coupled together without any gear mesh) so very hard to change to any other ratio. This is the simplest way to do it, and the next logical progression is to keep the rest of the gears in a standard H pattern as much as possible. Since 1st is the least commonly usd gear, and it's not in the normal upshift sequence, it's easiest to put 1st where 5th used to be, and leave the rest in a standard H pattern.

Make sense? Simple

make perfect sense and as a bonus looks hilarious! also might baffle someone stealing your car when they go to shift from '4th' up to '5th' and find themselves doing a 5th to 1st downchange instead.... yikes!

[navdan]

So anyway, whats next? High Country looks the goods! We're doing Mt Stuart next month as a nice little filler

Next for us in the Evo is High Country and it looks as though I have a seat for the ASP Adelaide Hills Tarmac Rally in 2 weeks...

That should help soothe the post Targa sads

[archie01]

Now now boys..... saying the 5 speed isn't a benefit but rather a cost saving is utter bullshit.

To win Targa first you have to finish it, so yes, reliability is very important (it is NOT however just a reliabilty trial, that is an insult).

Therefore, running the stonger, yet ILLEGAL, 5 speed box is definately a benefit.

So tell me what you really think?

Serious question now and I'm not trying to be smart:

What substantiation do you have behind your opinion that the 5 speed is stronger than the 6 speed getrag?

The reason I raise this is because of the following:

1. the infamous Racepace 33GTR with it's stroker motor and around 450rwkw sucessfully ran the 34 getrag in a few tarmac type events.

2. it is pretty much the same gearbox as the 6sp Supra and these cars aren't known to be serial gearbox killers, in fact are renowned to be able to handle high hp

3. why would nissan engineers put a weaker box into a later model gtr and plague its reputation with such a compromise?

[fatz]

you run top there you will get inspected

you dont run top three you wont

simple

question is? was the gear box the first thing the srews found or did they check the whole car and only find the box?

if it was the latter then snowy will be back and smash em next year

[sav man]

it was pretty much the first thing they checked on his car

[PHaT MR30]

and I don't know about 'Smash' did you look at the stage times?

[Duncan]

hasn't the tone of this thread changed in the last 7 days.

[Roy]

...do you want to go back there Duncan? The thread can be a like the 2008 F1 thread with M3GTR just repeating the same thing every post!

I am happy to go on posting my opinions (informed or otherwise ?!?!) on the matter but pretty sure people want to move on

[Targa Tom]

So tell me what you really think?

Serious question ....

....3. why would nissan engineers put a weaker box into a later model gtr and plague its reputation with such a compromise?

Think the thing is that since the R32, the Nissans have ran in modifiable classes... therefore the "engineer down to a price" rather than "up to a standard" comes into play. They put effort into seats n the like for the road punters.

My evo (showroom GSR - not RS) came with an MT/6, but even now - 5 years on - the prefered homoligation is MT/5.

I am tipping the Nissan engineers didnt engineer their OEM box to be subject to 300-400wkw, as during that time their factory race cars at a minimum were being fitted with dog boxes.

Dont forget most guys in Targa run aggressive paddle type clutches too which transfer more stress to the GB.

If I were an engineer building a street car as a race platform, the only parts "up-specd" would be those not allowed to be changed out in the target rules... my guess is Nissan too that approach maybe?

TT

[Roy]

Its funny, the R34 when it ran in the Ring 24hr races etc in Falken war paint, i recall it always had issues with turbo failures. Not gearbox.

But more importantly, Nissan are very competitive in their domestic market racing so Nismo are running around in the Super Taikyu series. Dont recall reading that it struggled with gearboxes, and there were several teams in the Super Taikyu series runnign R34s with std gearboxes...Falken, Endless amongst others and the GTRs did very well.

[fatz]

who on the skidz comp?