Tarmac Rallying Perpetual Thread

[PHaT MR30]

Absolutely Roy. Simple tubes within the sills allow triangulated stands to slip in quickly and efficuently, and are sturdy and safe even on rough ground. The gravel guys have used them for years, and if I were building a fresh tarmac car, it would certainly be on the list of must-do's.

Do WRC cars use airjacks?

Nah they still use the tried and trusted jack and stands. Not really very hard to add to a car.

And when they are on the side of the road they use something like this: http://www.motorsport-tools.com/lightweight-wrc-spec-quicklift-rally-car-jack-p-267859.html

Save yourself a bomb and just get something like this: http://www.motorsport-tools.com/new-quick-lift-rally-jack-410mm-lift-p-268042.html

Have a jack like this on my first car and it was brilliant.

In fact that site has all those sorta sill stands and brackets etc (make it yourself but it gives you an idea).

[Marlin]

Ummm, I knew that sunshine

[PHaT MR30]

Ummm, I knew that sunshine

Ok princess

[sav man]

Just looking through the supp regs, looks like corner cutting is out again.

20. Cutting Corners

Any competitor who is observed by an official, taking a line that results in a complete tyre (front and / or rear) passing beyond the sealed surface will receive a penalty as follows:

First Observed Offence: 30 seconds

Any further offence will be the first offence plus 30 seconds for each subsequent offence

Edited February 22, 2012 by sav man

[Marlin]

I am I keen to hear more from you guys about the 8 tyre rule for TT.

Do you think there's any implications that haven't been considered?

[sav man]

I won't be surprised to see people use up all 8 tyres gambeling on softer compounds, and/or being able to go flatout without thinking about tyre wear.

[Darkside]

What are you suggesting Woo?

I guess from an organisers perspective the rule came in for safety? ie with the extra kms not wanting cars running on tyres down to the canvas? I guess you could always have stayed with 6 and choose a compound you know will go the distance.

^^^ Agreed with Ben. Definately scope now for punting on softs for the whole event.

Gut feel is tyres will become alot more strategic and alot more changes. Ie run your softs for the shorter stages where you need to have them come on quick and wont over cook them, along with the wet roads. Back to a medium for the long ones (Cethana Mt Roland etc) where your tyres tend to go off towards the end. All the while having the scope to drive like a black man given you should have more than enough rubber.

As I have said before, I was a bit of a fan of the gamble on tyres and trying to manage your driving to preserve them. Added another dimension to TT the 2 day ones dont have.

Targa Time Attack

Edited February 22, 2012 by Darkside

[Marlin]

I should start by saying I was a strong advocate of introducing the stepped 6 tyre rule. I was of the opinion that given the last 2 days are usually the wet ones, that it would reduce the amount of accidents caused by people running on nearly bald or bald tyres.

Prior to 2010 the organisers used to have scrutineers walking around checking tyres (prior to the 6 tyre rule). If the scruineers found a tyre under 1.5mm , you were forced to either use your spare and take the 2 minute penalty, or withdraw. There was no option. I know we, and others, have been paranoid and dodged scrutineers like the plaque to avoid the possibility of that situation. However, it forced you to MANAGE your tyres, and was another of the great Targa "levellers", ie, the team who best balanced the tyre wear/speed ratio was often rewarded, despite how well funded they were or weren't..... We've seen superstars come and go, guys that go out hard, but by day 4, are taking tyres and the resulting penalties, ending up nowhere.

No spares without a penalty also meant most of us didn't cut corners as much, for fear of spiking a tyre and damaging it beyong use.

Now, with the 8 tyre rule, I fear we're heading in the wrong direction. I'm a firm believer that, if you chose the right tyre, you could get through on even ONE set of rubber, despite the added kilometres. A set of Hards will easily do the job, PROVIDING you look after them, and pace your event, just like we all had to do in the past.

Now, the danger is turning it into a sprint, with the balance heavily in favour of the wealthy teams who can run multiple service vehicles and many crew.

I give you a scenario;

Team XXXX decides to run a set of Yoki Softs and Yoki Mediums. For each and every stage under 10klm, they will have a crew set up either side of the stage to put softs on the car for the shortest duration possible. For touring transports and stages over 10klm, the Mediums will go on, keeping the softs as fresh as possible. This will gain time, and it's a given for any team with the budget man power to do.

Additionally, it means there could be literally dozens of cars on the side of the road everywhere within transport stages, all jacked up in the air, with people scrambling around swapping rubber for every stage. Not only is that dangerous, it means there will be so much tyre swapping going on, competitors will stop wondering WHY they see car XXXX constantly jacked up swapping tyres! This in turn introduces a MASSIVE window for team XXXX to cheat, because no one, let alone the organisers and their representatives, can POSSIBLY hope to keep abreast of what tyres are on what car, and when, despite the possibility of DataDotting them.

As I say, competitors will become so blase about seeing cars in the air, cheating for those whom winning means everything and have questionable morals, is a forgone conclusion.

I know I tend to drag on, but I hope I at least put across my point of view.

I will also add that for an average bloke like me, who's dream and aspiration it has always been to compete in this awesome event, 8 tyres is unfortunately taking it further away from affordability. When it was 4 tyres, it was a $20k spend to do it properly from Queensland, now with 8 tyres, it's a $23k spend ($3k is 4 engines in my car!). I know the argument it that there is "more competetive kilometres!", but to be honest, after 5 days, I'm ready to get out, and have well and truly had enough, and just want it to end.

Again, sorry to ramble.

[PHaT MR30]

Well said, really puts it in perspective.

Have you looked at the course this year??? Day 4 you start in Strahan and practically drive back to Elizabeth town and back to Strahan in a day. Then Day 5 you finish Tarraleah and just want to get home to Hobart, but no you have to drive nearly back to Oatlands for another stage plus finish on Grasstree. Pretty Epic!

Reckon I might have to pack some Redbull and NoDoz for the transports!

[Marlin]

Yeah mate, I have looked at this year's course, and I reckon you will have had an utter GUTFULL of it by the end! lol

[Darkside]

You make some good points there Woo... for a Queenslander. (not sure what I mean by that)

Agreed that the rule does potentially open up an advantage to those with the chequebook to do so.....when I guess their chequebooks are already giving them a fairly decent help along.

And agreed on the length of it. I certainly didnt finish it and wish for more. With a final day of every rattle in the car amplifying, you're stoked/relieved to just get there and smash some beers and be glad to not bedonning the suit for another day.

I guess its about the spirit of the event and where you want it to go. Food for thought.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Darkside

[Snowman]

It's starting to make Colorado Springs 2013 sound more and more inviting.

[sav man]

I agree woo.

It's going to be hard/impossable to police people checking in say 8 x m's, but have crews with s's on board to swap straight after stages. With 8 tyres it's now a 600km sprint for the cat7+ cars. The cost is the main killer though, I know a lot of people only own 6 rims on the same size, so it's not only extra in tyres, it's more money on rims. It's easy to say "just run 4 or 6 tyres", but if you want to attempt to be compeditive you will need 8 tyres.

I know it was bad enough last year with accusations flying about people running 7-8 tyres when it wasn't normal to see cars up in the air.

[Marlin]

I guess its about the spirit of the event and where you want it to go. Food for thought.

And that "spirit" is exactly what I hope we don't lose.

I've always thought of the event as one that if all a bloke's numbers came up, if all the moons were aligned, and on "his day", he could stand on the podium.

Keeping the costs and crew required somewhat limited by tyre limitations kept that dream alive. And FWIW, I'm not a believer that a mega-dollar or mega-car is required to win it, so take that side of the budget discussion away for a bit for the sake of this discussion....

[Darkside]

I thought Closeys effort at TWP was inspriational and on his day I reckon he could do something pretty special at TT this year. I'll certainly be watching with great interest. But for a relatively small husband and wife effort, the task for them could get harder if the other front runners with the means/manpower to do so, take it up another level running detailed tyre strategies. I guess like you said Woo, it would always be nice to think its an event where the underdog with a well prepped car within their budget, thorough recci, some skills on the tiller and a little luck can cause an upset.

I guess it will be interesting with that new rule in place, how many people will take it to the limit. I guess once one of the front runners does, there is the sense that to be in the hunt you need to consider joining them.

I still think air jacks and a single nut conversion on the hubs is the way forward. Even found the rattle guns on M105 second hand. Only $6500 ea. Have one each side, a marquee/pit area set up after each stage. Pull in, up on jacks, tyres, fuel and back on the road in 10 seconds or so. Perfect

http://my105.com/listingdetails.aspx?id=543

Edited February 22, 2012 by Darkside

[paulR32gtr]

I still think air jacks and a single nut conversion on the hubs is the way forward.

You're overthinking it Blaise. Couldn't you just modify this to get the wheels off the ground as well?

[2pee]

I give you a scenario;

Team XXXX decides to run a set of Yoki Softs and Yoki Mediums. For each and every stage under 10klm, they will have a crew set up either side of the stage to put softs on the car for the shortest duration possible. For touring transports and stages over 10klm, the Mediums will go on, keeping the softs as fresh as possible. This will gain time, and it's a given for any team with the budget man power to do.

Unless there's a helicopter - rotor turning, highly unlikely situation imho.

Said before, if whingers need the extras on the grounds of safety, carry them as targa of old......East Africa style if necessary!

[poolheaters]

I should start by saying I was a strong advocate of introducing the stepped 6 tyre rule. I was of the opinion that given the last 2 days are usually the wet ones, that it would reduce the amount of accidents caused by people running on nearly bald or bald tyres.

Prior to 2010 the organisers used to have scrutineers walking around checking tyres (prior to the 6 tyre rule). If the scruineers found a tyre under 1.5mm , you were forced to either use your spare and take the 2 minute penalty, or withdraw. There was no option. I know we, and others, have been paranoid and dodged scrutineers like the plaque to avoid the possibility of that situation. However, it forced you to MANAGE your tyres, and was another of the great Targa "levellers", ie, the team who best balanced the tyre wear/speed ratio was often rewarded, despite how well funded they were or weren't..... We've seen superstars come and go, guys that go out hard, but by day 4, are taking tyres and the resulting penalties, ending up nowhere.

No spares without a penalty also meant most of us didn't cut corners as much, for fear of spiking a tyre and damaging it beyong use.

I was at the day 5 lunch break in Queenstown in 2006 (maybe?) and I think at that stage Steve Glenney was coming either 1st or 2nd? His car was up in the air with the crew desperately trying to regrease his sticking Proflex. A scrutineer was intensly examining all his tyres, and he said to Steve "Mate, I only need to find 1.5mm somewhere on one tyre and you can keep running"

This 1.5mm couldn't be found, and faced with the expense of more tyres and the appropriate penalty to go with it, Steve chose to withdraw. But he gladly copped it on the chin, saying they gambled on softer tyres for the speed, and only needed a bit more rain and it would have worked. This is one of the things that makes Targa what is in my opinion..

My thoughts are that 6 tyres for TT12 would have been a good option. Make everyone think and manage their tyres vs speed. Same as the Bens, 8 tyres for us would have really pushed the affordability.

Edited February 22, 2012 by poolheaters

[Bazil_1]

We were pushing the budget with 6 tyres so wasn't too impressed to think we will have to find another $1100 in the next few weeks. Our car ran the same set of Yoko Ms for THC and TWP and they still look to have at least 100km in them. I think our plan will be to run 8 Ms, use 4 rotating them day to day and then bring out the fresh 4 any morning it looks like it will be wet. Hopefully this way we may even have enough in a set to do a smaller event later in the year... Don't really see the point running S when you don't have the support team to be there at the beginning of any long transport or dry comp stage.

Another idea i was tossing up for a bit would be to run something like a KU36 for the wet and then the Yoko Ms for the dry. I've heard good things about the KU in the wet but have never used them back to back with any Semi... Would be a cheaper alternative too!

[R31Nismoid]

KU36s in the wet aren't great. Nor were my RS-Rs.

I mean they weren't bad but compared to AD08s in the wet, it was noticeable no doubt.