Tarmac Rallying Perpetual Thread

[giant]

i thought you can make changes to the exhaust from the first cat back within a certain percent of the original I.D?

oops....apparently i had the loudest r35 at targa!!

spose it doesnt matter when your not fast!! oh well i had a bloody good time...recce was heaps fun too.

[Duncan]

correct Russ. not sure about the exact % but on a 32 gtr it allows you to go from 70mm to 3" exhaust.

Probably one of the smallest things to cheat on with the least value. Turbos on the other hand on a gtr would be a big deal - witness sav's remarks elsewhere that garret -5s make the same max power as n1 turbos, but at 1000rpm earlier. Think of how hard that is to check and how many times you could have done with boost 1000rpm sooner

[Targa Tom]

Greg you were pretty clear just after targa that you thought none of the top cars were cheating (back in this thread somewhere).

Do you think the Quinns were a one off or a sign of a more broad issue?

Geez... I said I believe every car I race against is legal. I didnt say the were/are. If you take the Gainsford-Taylor approach of looking back at where you may have finished if a subsiquently prooven infringer is in your event would send you fishing quick smart.

I look at the times I do in sec/km behind various guys I rate... and go and do the best I can. Sometimes I am disappointed on stages when we are quick, because my pressure comes from within.

Ben is bangin on about stroker Evo's, yet he doesnt compete against 'em.... I dont get the point.

We are aware there could be people out there running cranked evo's and maybe in the outright standings they finished in front of us. But wouldnt they be looking at us saying - "Would we have been faster than those two clowns if we were legit?" Bit like kicking the golfball out when you are playing on your own...

The TT results are on the net Dunc, and I "believe" this to be a one off....

just wondering, are the targa tas cars checked unless there is a protest? some of us arn't pro enough to find out

Our car was not checked mechanically Ben, however we were made to remove the wheels to prove all our tyres had DNA. There was a rumour that one of the factories wanted to have a couple of Evo's in showroom checked, but it did not eventuate. You have to be sure that your competitors know nothing about your car if you wish to lodge the dosh for a check. Successful counter protests result in expensive omlette. At rally Tas we were taken post race in 2007. Not sure why - the car was what I would call box stock LOL. (I was later played a phone recorded conversation between two cams officials which made it clear - and made me laugh)

Rumours start and it is not hard for an experienced competittor to lobby/direct the event officials toward a suspect car... CAMS see it I think as a way of making their events "better" in what is now a competitive market, to drag entrants into post-race checks. The other side of the coin is the people who lobby for this regime must always be squeaky clean. SOme "none performance-enhancing" mods, make cars entered in certain spec illegal - would be a pain to be excluded if you got caught up in that syndrome.

Every competitor has a choice. I would rather see TT with 300 entries and over half being illegal, than just 70 all legal entries and broke in two years. Some people in the crowd just dont care, and they like race cars worth 200k to sound better than their Dyson.

TT

[Targa Tom]

M1 (CAMS) Exhaust Rule: (R35)

1.1 Exhaust: All components must be as per the original dimensions and design save that the catalytic converter may be replaced by a substitute part approved by the appropriate transport authority and the muffler may be replaced by one respecting the original equipment inlet and outlet dimensions.

1.1.1 The exhaust system must respect the laws of the state in which the event is run with regard to noise levels and regulations of CAMS.

1.1.2 Minimum bodywork modifications are permitted to allow the exhaust to be routed to avoid modifications to the floor pan which may be necessary to fit approved seats.

1.1.3 Additional parts for the mounting of the exhaust are authorised.

1.1.4 Repair of the exhaust system to original specification is permitted.

So, even if you tipped over the dba reading you could be outed... when all other criteria are observed. Easier said than done to comply.

TT

[Snowman]

I reckon there are just far too many rule ambiguities that you can stress yourself over if you start taking it all too seriously.

I mean I'm really keen to get involved in the Showroom class after next year (since Wooster talked me out of my NSX idea! lol) and reading those regs I still don't understand how an RS model EVO falls under the guidelines of "Vehicles must be commercially available within Australia as a massed produced model" when you can't even street register the damn things! LOL I know they are allowed however - I just don't understand how that is the case given the basis of the "rules".

But I don't care that they do run and infact I'm quite looking forwards to trying to find something that I can try and beat them in! (There might be a few new car options in the next 12 months that could be fun). Or if all else fails actually turning darkside!

But I do have one Showroom question for the experts (Greg or Stu I guess!) - with the suspension rules can someone with more understanding than me explain exactly what this means?

"Dampers are free, but must retain the standard style spring seats that are not adjustable".

Does that mean you can run aftermarket coil-overs or what? Yes but they can't be height adjustable? That sentence totally has be baffled.

[PHaT MR30]

I reckon there are just far too many rule ambiguities that you can stress yourself over if you start taking it all too seriously.

I mean I'm really keen to get involved in the Showroom class after next year (since Wooster talked me out of my NSX idea! lol) and reading those regs I still don't understand how an RS model EVO falls under the guidelines of "Vehicles must be commercially available within Australia as a massed produced model" when you can't even street register the damn things! LOL I know they are allowed however - I just don't understand how that is the case given the basis of the "rules".

But I don't care that they do run and infact I'm quite looking forwards to trying to find something that I can try and beat them in! (There might be a few new car options in the next 12 months that could be fun). Or if all else fails actually turning darkside!

But I do have one Showroom question for the experts (Greg or Stu I guess!) - with the suspension rules can someone with more understanding than me explain exactly what this means?

"Dampers are free, but must retain the standard style spring seats that are not adjustable".

Does that mean you can run aftermarket coil-overs or what? Yes but they can't be height adjustable? That sentence totally has be baffled.

My interpretation of that is, you can run a strut insert in the original strut body using the original spring perch, using a spring (with with free spring rates) of the original diameter.

So no coilovers in my opinion.

[Snowman]

Right - but the M1 regs only state:

"Springs and their mountings, dampers and torsion bars are free" - but they all run coil-overs.

The only difference between the two wordings really is in the spring mounting - which I thought really just implied height adjustment?

[t01-100]

There has been rationalisation of the wording of many of the rules for 2010... the rules haven't changed, simply made easier to read and interpret.

For Showroom, a simple replacement insert in the standard strut is the ideal and best low cost solution, but this isn't the lowest cost option with some current model cars such as Evo X further to a couple of reasons... accordingly cars like the Evo X and 3 MPS use a replacement non-threaded shock body with a fixed spring seat. Some cars use adjustable shocks, some don't. Remotes aren't permitted in Showroom, but with clever design some cars run larger primary canisters if the shock length permits.

In SS/M1/S1 fully adjustable coilovers with or without remotes are permitted.

The rules for SS/M1/S1 have been revised each year over the last four, particually in the CAMS days, and then after we swapped back to what our rules used to be to reduce build costs.

Edited September 2, 2009 by t01-100

[Snowman]

Haha - ok it sounds like the best solution is to find a car and then come and talk to you about the options available hey Stu!

Because my main issue is the cars I've been considering at this stage don't even exist yet. LOL So this project is still a while off. But this low budget - high reliabiliy concept is really appealing looking ahead.

[Targa Tom]

Haha - ok it sounds like the best solution is to find a car and then come and talk to you about the options available hey Stu!

Because my main issue is the cars I've been considering at this stage don't even exist yet. LOL So this project is still a while off. But this low budget - high reliabiliy concept is really appealing looking ahead.

They wont bring the RS focus in M8, Or that would be one weapon.

What Stu is saying is it is possible to have "internal cannisters" I dont see the point, but a guy that has been doing suspension since Jesus raced a Skoda in the middle east does this configeration. 10k or thereabouts is the carnage. These shox have a giant circlip setup under the spring purch and while fixed, are changeable in steps... I think if pressed these are on the edge regarding the rules.

We used blue dampers. We took oem shox, and pressed the oem damper out of the spring purch and pressed new dampers in. These dampers had rebound and comp (sorry thats bike talk) - bump adjustability. We set the ride height as we have run our coil overs, and used a kings progressive spring with oem spring seat.

We run a trick bump stop (because it gets used in Targa) and the service crew love them. Not much to fiddle with I just drive... and to be honest the average is very good.

TT

[Snowman]

Not the RS Focus.

BUT - I have a love for other R cars other than Nissans.

And there are 2 coming out early next year that should be sweet.

The Roc R (which I'm told IS coming to Oz since they are building it in RHD for the UK market)

The R20T (R32 replacement).

I've punted a base model Roc around "The Ring" and it's a very capable car, and the R20T will get the same tricky diff + 4WD and both will have very good power from the Audi S3 engine. And I love the gearboxes in them (the wife has an R36 now as I like them so much!) So I'm really keen to see exactly how they stack up when they arrive next year (we'll get the full details on the R20T @ the Frankfurt motorshow at the end of the month).

[phunky_monkey]

Love the Scirocco R Snowy, do it!

[Snowman]

Yeah - but it's FWD. Else I would for sure.

Still - it may turn out to be a better option than the R20T (can still do Targa Showroom plus have a crack at the Bathurst 12hr "Hot Hatches" class in it. It just won't be "Outright" fast. But I'd only go the R20T if I think it could be Outright fast - else the Roc is the go).

Will just wait and see what all the final specs end up being on them all.

[Marlin]

Did Quinny actually get a Focus RS outa Honkers like he was talking about?

[Targa Tom]

Hey Snow,

Dont forget the $$$$ limit on showroom. kinda procludes some of the trick stuff. Now if I import an RS and you buy it from my company... then it is commercially avaiable in Oz

Ahhhhh I crack myself up sometimes

TT

[Snowman]

Oh I like that idea. You could base sell them for under $80K so that they are with-in the rules - then have a $100K racing package "option" like the EVO RS have!

You're a thinking man Tom!

[Marlin]

Meh, just get a 135i and have a crack at Showroom Outright, not just Showroom 2WD.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Marlin

[sav man]

why hasn't anyone tried a 350z or 370z. I recon one of them in the right hands would be in contention for outright.

[Marlin]

Yeah I think one would be great iIF ECU mods were outlawed, but, with a few tweaks, turbo torque is the winner.

[Snowman]

Yeah I've driven a midly sorted 135i at the Nurburgring and it's not something I'd want to do Targa in. I'm nowhere near that brave! It's a scary car to drive at high speeds - it's VERY twitchy especially under brakes!! It's such a hard car to drive actually that the guys at the Ring have taken it off of their list of cars available to rent now as they deemed it too dangerous! But it needs a rear wing or something to keep the back end stable - which isn't allowed in TT.

The 370Z was my original thoughts but as Ben pointed out it's the lack of Turbo that kills it.

Hence the VW options. Both will be 2.0L turbo's and I reckon the AWD Golf R20T might be ok for a crack at Showroom Outright in the right hands (not saying mine are the right hands though! LOL).