Off To Court :(

[dangerous_daveo]

So, have you actually been issued with a notice to appear in court?

[ToMMaH]

Sure have. Regardless of what the defect is now you will go to court. Bald tyre = court.

I go on the 19th of August.

I've also been told of a plan B. The cop put crosses in the boxes rather than dots as indicated. Some silly person suggested I use that as my defence.....lol thats just fail

Edited July 19, 2008 by ToMMaH

[mic_check_1_2]

i didnt say use it as a defence num nutz just throw it out there too, but there are cases thrown out because of things like that hahah, also that place sri thai is private property too!!!

correct me if im wrong but isnt it only a major defect you have to go to court for???

and as stated a few posts back, question the copper about locked diffs etc. just try and get the ticket ripped up b4 court anyway

and u sir fail, not me.....you

lol

[Housie]

Hey mate,

Have just been reading through your thread. Very unlucky situation that your in.

Ive had mates summoned to court over defects (but not under the new rules people have been mentioning in this thread). I think that you will find, unfortunelty, that the court system can reduce your fine (if ruling in your favour) but cannot actually reduce the points lost on licence (which is what your concerned about) ((please correct if im wrong)). From my understanding your going to court not to prove that your diff was locked or not, your going because IT was locked (wether thats true or not, but i dont actually think the cop will have to prove that) and your there to be 'punished.' The level of punishment (amount of fine) will be determined by your attitude, presentation and any 'evidence' you bring along.

Your on the right track with the letters etc from your mechanics. Rather than aiming to prove wether your diff was locked or not. possibly approch it from a "the diff was repaired due to a worn shim. It was replaced with a thicker shim prone to less wearing and was recommended by my mechanic."

If asked why it was replaced with a slightly larger shim, id be saying that as a grey import genuine parts are hard to source and the shim that was put in your diff was a more commonly sourced non-genuine part.

If questioned why the orignal shim needed to be replaced dont dig yourslef a hole and say an answer which makes you sound like you been drifting. Possibly say it was imported with poor gear oils and the hotter aussie environment took its tole on the older diff components (although thats prob b/s, the judge isnt a mechanic so he really isnt going to know to much about it, but he isnt an idiot either he'll pick a lie from a mile away. Try to bend the truth, not lie outright. kinda-thing.

Im trying to rack my brain for anything else that might help you out but thats about it for the time being. Please use my advice with caution, possibly run it by a lawyer if you decide to source one.

One the day, get dressed up, make and look like your taking it very serious. dont drive the skyline to the court house lol. Also make it look like you've spend alot of time/effort/ and money to prepare for the day.

anyone please comment on anything that you believe is incorrect, dont want to be giving this lad a bum steer!

cheers

Jason

[ToMMaH]

Surely that can't be right? If so that means the police are now judges as they have given me a penalty and I haven't had a chance to prove my innocence? I have to go to a cop shop later to give them my clearance anyway so i'll discuss that with them there.

Why does a cop not have to prove my diff was locked? What ever happened to innocent till proven guilty? This is guilty till proven innocent and it's just not right.

As I said before I had misread the form and I required a qualified person to approve it. I also went a step further and got a safety cert done just to have another peice of paper saying my car was legal. Oh yes a $60 peice of paper, thankfully I just got my tax return or i'd soon be up shit creek with all of this. The certificate has been done and I have passed without making any alterations to my diff. I did need some new rear tyres as they were getting boarderline. My car is legal and I have 2 old Federal 595's to smoke up at QR plus a supply of old 16" tyres from my mehanic Something good has come of this all.

Thanks for all the comments so far, quite happy to listen to anything anyone has to say.

Next i'm off to a queensland transport inspection centre to have a chat to them about it and get them to have a look at my diff.

[Revhead]

As I understand it, a police defect notice isn't telling you that your car IS defective, it's telling you that the officer SUSPECTS it's defective. Then it's up to you (and your wallet) to prove otherwise. Not sure if obvious things like bald tyres work the same way though.

In theory it's a great idea for the police to have to send you to someone more qualified to make a definitive call, but in practice it just means inconvenience and cost to a lot of people, and as far as I'm aware there's no protections for overuse/misuse unless you can prove harassment. Innocent until proven guilty looks nice as part of a mission statement, but society hasn't really worked that way for a very long time.

Anyway, IMHO the inspection should be free and costs involved in proving your innocence should be reimbursed, IF you prove your innocence. If the vehicle is indeed judged to be defective, the costs are your problem. Sif it'll ever work that way though

[Dantay]

if the cost is more then $500 and your innocent you should be able to make a civil case against QPS for funds and err "emotional distress". Make ol Ms Spence pay through the nose for wasting so much of her attention on revenue raising!

[ToMMaH]

Current bill is $60 for this. It'll be over $500 easy if you add in me taking a day off work plus whatever a lawyer will cost me.

I'll be speaking to a lawyer next Monday

Also when I went to hand on the defect notice with the clearance at the cop shop. I told them It was wrong. They told me to hang onto the form and write a letter to the cop who gave it to me. So I can say the same things I already told him? hmmm.

[Dantay]

CMC is your friend

[ToMMaH]

CMC as in Crime and Misconduct Commission? Could you elaborate on how they are my friend?

[Lunatikk]

Mate depending on what you said to the copper when he first pulled you up you might have already put your foot in it BUT at the end of the day, it sounds like your diff is behaving EXACTLY how a well-built LSD should. It's not locked, welded, running a spool or otherwise modified away from the core factory design, it is a rather well maintained FACTORY STANDARD unit if you will.

My advice (for what it's worth) would be to engage an accredited individual (mech engineer etc) to visually inspect your diff, write a document that will be recognised by the court (this is very important- I've had documents NOT recognised by the court purely because they were not signed by a JP for example) & roll the dice, which is basically a collective of what several others have already advised

Unfortunately the system has been set up in such a way that even if we choose to fight such, let's say "over zealous" charges & winning, we still end up losing by being outa pocket or otherwise inconvenienced thru time invested in something that should of never have been allowed to come to bare in the first place.

It's about time the system was changed & I personally would like to see the requirement of VIDEO evidence before a prosecution can be brought, especially when they are hell-bent on seizing vehicles for supposed dangerous or otherwise "anti-social" behaviour. For anyone doing something blatantly & truly dangerous, there would be no denying the charges & more importantly, it would bring petty charges such as this right back into perspective & save us all from any aforementioned "over zealous" policing- "put up or shut up" rather than the "I am right, regardless" situation we are currently existing within......

PM me your mobile # or give me a call if you've still got my #, my phone ate yours

[ToMMaH]

Probably a stupid question but does anyone know 100% if the cop going to have to appear in court for the case? or would they just go off a written report?

Well I never said I had a locked diff. I just said I had a shim. The way the cop was if I said "it's not locked" it would of just been something he'd have laughed at. I didnt really want to get into a debate about it for a couple good reasons. So I don't think I put my foot in anything and I also have a witness to the conversation.

Is your number still 0413 6159## ? I'll pm you with mine anyway.

[R33GTRKid]

well firstly can I start off by saying unfortunately I am a lawyer, take this or leave it, it is up to you.

Firstly, yes a defect notice means you are suspected of having a defective vehicle.

Secondly, if you now have evidence (which you seemingly do) that your vehicle was not in anyway defective, then you should copy that evidence and write to the fines adjudication officer in your state and ask that they consider withdrawing the complaint against you without the need for a court appearance as the your vehicle has been inspected in its current state by the relevant licensing department who confirm the vehicle is not defective.

At the end of the letter you should write, 'you reserve your right to rely on this letter and any response in support of a claim for costs'.

If they continue to press the complaint against you, then you go to court, you request the magistrate's permission to hand up the evidence you had sent to the Police adjudication officer in your defence to the complaint. In all likelihood, unless I am missing something, you will be found not guilty. You then request permission to be heard on the issue of costs and hand up the letter that you wrote to the fines adjudication officer. Say that you seek to rely on that letter in support of an order that the Police pay your costs fixed at (insert figure calculated on total costs of time off work and cost of the vehicle inspection). when you say eg 'fixed at $400'. You continue and say, the basis for the $400 sir is as follows.......

end of matter

[85URK]

Current bill is $60 for this. It'll be over $500 easy if you add in me taking a day off work plus whatever a lawyer will cost me.

I'll be speaking to a lawyer next Monday

Also when I went to hand on the defect notice with the clearance at the cop shop. I told them It was wrong. They told me to hang onto the form and write a letter to the cop who gave it to me. So I can say the same things I already told him? hmmm.

just an experience i had with a fine, they made a mistake on my fine, i sent in the letter etc to the place it says on the fine, stating the problems i thought were wrong on the fine etc, and would like the fine waved, they sent me a letter back saying, thank you for pointing that out we have cancelled that fine and issued you with a new one with the correct information on it. so they will most likely do this to you if u send them a letter stating the fine is wrong. better to speak with the lawyer about if the fine is wrong can u get it dissmissed in court, dont even give them a chance to change it.

[ToMMaH]

just an experience i had with a fine, they made a mistake on my fine, i sent in the letter etc to the place it says on the fine, stating the problems i thought were wrong on the fine etc, and would like the fine waved, they sent me a letter back saying, thank you for pointing that out we have cancelled that fine and issued you with a new one with the correct information on it. so they will most likely do this to you if u send them a letter stating the fine is wrong. better to speak with the lawyer about if the fine is wrong can u get it dissmissed in court, dont even give them a chance to change it.

I sort of see what your saying. But Im guessing in your case the 2nd fine was for the same thing as the first one but filled out properly?

[simpletool]

Tommah, bad luck mate. But if you keep a clear head and make sure you take that written evidence to court I think you have an excellent chance of getting off.

Whatever happens can you make sure you post up the happenings here. Some people never get back to the forums and we end up never knowing the outcomes from such cases. If we did then we could all as a car loving community work out better way to deal with these over zealous police.

Seems like you have the brains to deal with this properly.

Edited July 23, 2008 by simpletool

[85URK]

I sort of see what your saying. But Im guessing in your case the 2nd fine was for the same thing as the first one but filled out properly?

yes correct. the original ticket had the wrong information written on it, and they cancelled the original ticket and reissued it with the correct information on it when i wrote a letter to them stating my complaint. so i still got fined but they changed the info where they originally stuffed up on it.

Edited July 23, 2008 by 85URK

[ToMMaH]

Whatever happens can you make sure you post up the happenings here. Some people never get back to the forums and we end up never knowing the outcomes from such cases. If we did then we could all as a car loving community work out better way to deal with these over zealous police.

Seems like you have the brains to deal with this properly.

Oh I most certainly will keep people updated. It would be great if someone before had of undergone the same bullshit so I atleast knew how to tackle the whole thing step by step. As it stands, it looks like I'll be jumping in first. Hopefully there will be something gained by the end of it so people down the road will have an easier time if f*ked over by the same or similar thing.

As for the brains, my mind is pretty much frozen to be honest. Pretty much doing one thing at a time and seeing where it goes. I'm not old enough or have any experiance to have any idea what is going to happen in court or if im doing everything I should be doing before I get there.

yes correct. the original ticket had the wrong information written on it, and they cancelled the original ticket and reissued it with the correct information on it when i wrote a letter to them stating my complaint. so i still got fined but they changed the info where they originally stuffed up on it.

Yeah so it's a completely different situation. My defect notice was written out 100% correct. The issue is that my suspected defect is suspected based on a noise my car made. This noise is not caused soley by one thing. The cop suspected the noise was cause by a locked diff. The noise was caused as I have a shimmed diff which is legal. It's not like im saying the ticket was wrong and they are going to give me another defect notice for having a locked diff.

Also thanks R34Kid, very helpful stuff there Just curious, if I wrote them a letter and mentioned nothing about compensation at the time would I most likely not be able to get it on the court date? Im guessing that line at the end is also to let them know that if I get off the charge they will have something to lose from it?

And thanks to Lunatikk whos helping me out I wonder if I can add 3 hours call charges to whatever compensation Im after at the end, lol.

Anymore lawyers around on here? brownie points for speaking up

[85URK]

i thought u wrote up the page more there was something else they didnt spell right? and u might have a slim chance of fighting that. anyway. doesnt matter, i hope u get off this anyway. seem like alot of BS to me.

[ToMMaH]

Oh lol. That was that they put crosses on the boxes instead of dots. I only mentioned that as a joke. Even if I could get off a charge for that I'd like to think I wouldn't because it would be so unbeleivably retarded. I suppose with such a messed up system you could except it to have such a major flaw like that.