What's The Benefit Of Joining Andra?

[Sydneykid]

Again I disagree. Also, your speculation about how they came to the decision of 11 being the limit for a licence acheives nothing.

In all reality lets look at this from a common sense perspective.

To run 10's you need to be doing what? 120+mph? (my rough guess - happy to be changed)

At around 200km/h I would (as I would also hope any other sane person would) want to be as safe as possible, therefore racing at the safest possible track - new car or old. Additionally, one would assume that some form of personal protection cover would be offered.

I think it is more than reasonable to be paying whatever is required to get the highest quality of safety along with all the other benifits outlined previously.

Can any of you put a value on your life? If any of you suggest lower than what it costs to get a licence + build a racecar............I feel for your family.

So how was the 11.00 decided? There must have been some reason for choosing it. Pumping up the old safety chestnut is all very well, but I bet when the 11.00 was decided on "road cars" that were capable of getting under that didn't have traction control, launch control, 4wd, 14 airbags, progressive cumple zones, 300 kph tyres, 6 spot front and 4 spot rear brakes etc etc. Way back I raced at Castlereagh and did a mid 10 in my road car, with all the required safety gear at the time and I can tell you for absolute certain that I would be a whole lot safer in a standard R35GTR. Just as the speed of standard cars has moved on so has the safety of them. So if the line in sand was originally based on safety, it still needs reviewing.

Cheers

Gary

[JAS-25T]

So how was the 11.00 decided?

Once again - ask the rule makers (ANDRA) not me.

There must have been some reason for choosing it. Pumping up the old safety chestnut is all very well, but I bet when the 11.00 was decided on "road cars" that were capable of getting under that didn't have traction control, launch control, 4wd, 14 airbags, progressive cumple zones, 300 kph tyres, 6 spot front and 4 spot rear brakes etc etc. Way back I raced at Castlereagh and did a mid 10 in my road car, with all the required safety gear at the time and I can tell you for absolute certain that I would be a whole lot safer in a standard R35GTR. Just as the speed of standard cars has moved on so has the safety of them. So if the line in sand was originally based on safety, it still needs reviewing.

Cheers

Gary

I think you missed my point. So here it is plain and clear.

- Sub 11's = 120mph+

- Old cars were not designed prevent injury or death to its passenger when it hits a wall at 120mph+. Thats for sure.

- Seeing many results of crashes with new cars, I don't see many that were designed for 120mph+ impacts with solid walls either albeit possible milder injuries.

All of the above facts show that it is ultimately the speed required to run the sub 11 sec pass that dictates the cutoff, not the ET.

Not withstanding 4WD cars that can run faster ET's with less mph.

/end thread.

[1JZ.747]

Wait, I just realised that Victor doesn't even look close to runnin' a 5. All is well with the world once more!

never count out the big man in black betty. 5's will happen, he's a poofteinth off.

[2rismo]

Man, for all his titles and experience, a bunch of other people that I never thought would beat him to the punch have run 5's. Robin Judd, Kath Stevens, Aaron Lynch etc.

In saying that, the last meeting I saw him test at (he was clearly testing and not racing) he was leaving from idle. If he gets his head around the slider clutch it'll be on like Donkey Kong!

[9krpm]

The questions you posed are all one answer questions#. I am sure there is a list of things you are covered for, but you seem to see ANDRA as the enemy with your reference to Nazi's. How about you actually attempt to contact them instead of knocking them? Going off your above post you haven't even done so.

#Well all barring this one which is really a matter of opinion, as the "value" of any thing always is.

Again I disagree. Also, your speculation about how they came to the decision of 11 being the limit for a licence acheives nothing.

I was trying to be jovial with my post mate.

I built my car 4-5 years ago for fun on both circuit and drag. The cage was built to comply for a 10 sec run. I had a superstreet membership for 2 years. Then drag strip in South Australia closed. Moved to QLD for work and past 3 years, I have been so busy that I ceased my membership. I have a bit of spare time now so I tried to get my cage certifiy with Andra. I then realised that I will need a to convert it into a full cage. Emailed Andra and did not get reply within a week. I called them and yep UDL + full cage + a few more. Got an email back with similar response a few days after the phone call.......

I am not sure if I misread the cage requirement back then or Andra changed their rule recently :(but I know my fate next time I am on the track.....if I don't snap my rear axle ....I will get kick out for a 10sec run. $400+ annually for 2-3 drag days is not value for money for me. I guess I will stick with CAMS sanctioned events.

In all reality lets look at this from a common sense perspective.

To run 10's you need to be doing what? 120+mph? (my rough guess - happy to be changed)

At around 200km/h I would (as I would also hope any other sane person would) want to be as safe as possible, therefore racing at the safest possible track - new car or old. Additionally, one would assume that some form of personal protection cover would be offered.

I think it is more than reasonable to be paying whatever is required to get the highest quality of safety along with all the other benifits outlined previously.

Can any of you put a value on your life? If any of you suggest lower than what it costs to get a licence + build a racecar............I feel for your family.

If you are using common sense to risk assess people lives then you should not start the risk assessment in the first place!

Risk assessment is a scientific process not just purely common sense.

Full roll cage ==> reduces the risk of injury from roll and side impacts. It does not save you from frontal collision at 200+ kph. If you have a full noise head on impact at 200kph, be prepare to stay in ICU for more than a few days.

Harness and safe seat will reduces the risk of decceleration injury from frontal or rear impact

Safety PPE (glove, suites etc) are for reducing the risk of burn injury. Everyone should have one if they use an aftermarket fuel system IMHO

Risk assessment is a dynamic process, should have some real scientific evidence to back it up and should not be resistance to new technological changes

Edited July 25, 2008 by 9krpm

[1320ft]

Ok, Time for me to weigh in on this argument.

A few of you guys on here know me, as either Aaron the ANDRA steward from WSID, or the guy who crews for the Rocco's Rx-7.

Before some of you go flying of half cocked, I grew up around this sport, I live, eat, sleep and breath drag racing. I also am a Late model/"sport compact" guy. But in the end a drag car is a drag car and I live for the smell of race fuel.

I have seen what happens when older cars and late model cars hit the wall and there is one thing I can tell you for sure. I would rather be in an older All Steet, solid chassis car that any late model car. They hold together alot better and just dont crumple.

Now I can see where alot of you guys come from. I myslef a few years ago in QLD had a genuine Sigma Turbo that ran a 10 and I didnt want to ruin it, so I sold it and put all the gear into a GK and went and ran 10's all day long.

One thing that hasnt been mentioned here yet, is, insurance!!!!

Has anyone stopped to think, that MAYBE, just MAYBE, ANDRA's insurers have a hand in saying that if you want to run 10's, then they must have a cage, UDL etc etc.

Just the same as, 99% of insurance companies out there, would not insure you if they found out you had a 9/10 sec street car. You need to speak to Shannons or Just Car and they have certain requirements!

The thing that I find really confusing about this whole thing is that I see guys going out there with late model "street cars" that want to drift, they will fit a cage, buy their CAMS liscence etc etc, yet for drag racing it has to be different?? Can someone explain that to me?

The ANDRA insurance covers you for PERSONAL INJURY, AMBULANCE, ReHab etc etc. I'll bet you any money, that if you had an ACCO at a Heathcote TnT, you would probably get dropped off at the local Doctors and told, good luck to you!

Just like I txt Adrian, the NHRA require 4 point cages from 11.99, so we are pretty leanient.

But before you all start flaming me, has anyone ACTUALLY read their rule book????

People compain about ruining their car when the put their cage in! If you actually sit down and read the book, talk to a tech inspector you will findout how it can be done, without ruining you car.

[2rismo]

Thanks for posting, Aaron. I've received a couple of calls over this thread and the one thing we've agreed on is that there will always be two types of people running their cars at the drag strip. Note that I said 'running their cars' and not racing as that is the key difference.

The first person is the 'racer'. Like me, Shane, Paul D etc, we'll abide by any rules, weld any amount of chrome moly into our cars, wear as many pairs of fireproof undies and pay any license fee asked of us because everything else aside, we just want to race. To compete. To test ours and our car's mettle against each other as well as the clock.

The second type of person is the 'street meeter' or 'ET chaser'. They have a street car that they've punished all of their cash into to get it to make a million horsepower but don't see a reason why they should pay a chassis shop to break out the welder and, in their eyes, wreck their car with a cage. As well as this, they drive the same car on the road every day with their civil drivers license so why should they pay a body they know little to nothing about extra money to enjoy their street car in a safe environment? One that has been promoted to them by the media, the constabulary and, if they're lucky, their mates who also race at the track.

I can see both sides of the argument and feel that if you want to play you should have to pay the same as what everyone else already has. The one point that this thread has raised for me personally is that not enough is known about the benefits of joining ANDRA. This is clearly a fault of the organisation and something that should be addressed at a grass roots (street meeting) level. I don't mean waiting until someone runs an 11.xx and then jumping on them with the great news that they've just cost themselves $150 or that they've just gone quicker than 11.000 and they'll need to spend circa $5000 if they want to come back. Instead, the organisation should be proactive about promoting all the good reasons to be an ANDRA member so that the hundred or so bucks it costs for a S/ST license is negligible when compared to what they're going to get in return. Not doing this is akin to taking your customers (potential ANDRA members) for suckers.

And if their aren't enough reasons to convince 'Johnny Street Meet' to join or ANDRA can't make a good enough case to him, then something needs to be done to either dress up the offering or add to it. Reactionary enforcement of what I believe to be a sensible and just rule only turns people off that would otherwise be part of this great sport we love so much.

[Swiper the Fox]

im glad ive got all the safety gear...when you have a young family and drive as bad as me you need it...its the expensive licence that eats me...im not a hard core drag racer and only attend the occasional meeting so its a big expense when you put it in that light. Maybe have a user pays system where the licence is X amount then a run fee is paid at each event as you register that ANDRA collects. Why should casual racers pay into a development fund to televise a meeting that they are not even attending. That way the casual racer with a quick car is not so out of pocket.

Is 9k the only person who thinks this idea is feasable?

The more people race the more of an insurance risk they present.

Here's an idea of how it could work...please ignore figures as its only a guide. Licence $110 per year and a payment for insurance and development for each event of $55. So the casual racer that may only attend a couple of events will be out of pocket say $220. The more frequent racer attending half a dozen events would be out of pocket $440. Finally the seasoned hard core racer may have to pay up to $660. The more a driver is on the track the greater insurance risk they are but also more coverage they will be getting from media etc (development fund). Some people may pay more under this system but unfortunately thats the downside. They are using the facilities more and should contribute to the cost of running the event. I fail to see why a user pays system like this could not be implemented and im sure ANDRA would have enough statistical data to ensure they would be no worse off financially and may even make more money as im sure it would encourage guys like 9k to get their car back to the track.

Aaron? 2rismo?

Edited July 27, 2008 by DiRTgarage

[1320ft]

Adrian:

I do agree that there has to be a more pro-active approach to the ET chasers, to get them to become members of ANDRA. Thats why on wed night's, you get 1 chance. If you dont want to buy a S/ST licence on the spot (or dont have the $150), you get a warning, then If you show up again at WSID you MUST have the licence, or you dont race.

Same with the 10.99 cut off, you get 2 chances at it (unless you run 10.50's etc).

Note, that I get my ass kicked for doing this.

Paul:

This subject has been brought up a number of times, and if someone was prepared to sit down, do the reserch and write the proposal, the division's would definately consider it.

The hard thing is, that say racer A buy s a NSW div liscence. They can only race, street meets, bracket attacks, TnT's etc. They can not race at national point scoring rounds.

They WILL ENTER the nitro's etc (they allways do) then the argument will be on for young and old as to why they cannot race the meeting.

Use the Rocket All Starts as an example: From next season, cars MUST display a car sized sticker, not a bike sticker and vice versa. if they do-not wear the sticker (at all), they will not be eligable for points or money and this is starting some big arguments. As the racers do not believe that they should have to wear the rocket sticker to be eligable.

Racers will always (but not all racers) look for the dodgey way to do things.

[Swiper the Fox]

Aaron, my proposal was to be inplace of the current UDL licence, i wasn't even aware a NSW div. licence existed (is this a SS/T licence?) as ive only ever held a UDL. The cost of running at each event may vary i.e. a national point scoring event would attract a larger 'run' fee to that of a bracket meeting.

[2rismo]

In the rule book, Paulie. ANDRA Racing Credentials 1.1

[Swiper the Fox]

In the rule book, Paulie. ANDRA Racing Credentials 1.1

$80 eh and a free licence if you drive a 12.00 or slower.

bugger for owning/racing a quick car...not only do the slower guys get a cheap licence, their races last longer too!

[1320ft]

Aaron, my proposal was to be inplace of the current UDL licence, i wasn't even aware a NSW div. licence existed (is this a SS/T licence?) as ive only ever held a UDL. The cost of running at each event may vary i.e. a national point scoring event would attract a larger 'run' fee to that of a bracket meeting.

Sorry paul, what I meant was you could propose different level licences, that incur different fees. Racers would be restricted as to which meets they could race at tho. That would be a good idea but could create a heap of problems at the track when racers turn up expecting to race at meets, they arnt licenced for.

But like I said, if someone is willing to spend the time, writing the proposal, it would seriously be considered.

Hopefully tho, after this season, we see the end of the DRDF with a major sponsor signing and we go back to the old licence fees.

And for the record, I downgraded my UDL to a S/ST so I still pay the DRDF even though i'm not racing atm.

Also the DRDF doesnt apply at Street Meets or Bracket attacks etc

[JAS-25T]

Racers will always (but not all racers) look for the dodgey way to do things.

Obviously they don't see value in what is currently on offer - either it isn't value, or they aren't being shown the value - I think adrian already covered this............

if someone is willing to spend the time, writing the proposal, it would seriously be considered

isn't this ANDRA's Job?

[1320ft]

Obviously they don't see value in what is currently on offer - either it isn't value, or they aren't being shown the value - I think adrian already covered this............

isn't this ANDRA's Job?

Point 1:

I think the DRDF results (liscence fee's) are really starting to show their true colours. Group 2 teams are stepping up to Group 1, 3 to 2 etc. Non Automotive based companies are putting money into the sport. Old Group 1 drivers coming back into racing, other teams expanding.

Point 2:

No. It's not ANDRA's job.

ANDRA's structure only allow's the NCC to instigate policy of it's own back. The constitution requires changes like licence classes etc to be instigated by it's members via a rule proposal.

And for that matter, I am an ANDRA official, on the NSW Divisional Council, Crew member, racer.

My position within ANDRA is volounteer based. I DO NOT get paid for any of my time, the abuse (even the threats of violence at street meets), petrol, tolls, even my lunch. It is done off my own back. I get more that 30 emails a day about ANDRA stuff, so trying to fit that inbetween working full time, trying to build my car, fixing Rocco's car, being at street meets etc, when am I going to find time to go and write something that, that would take months of research and fine tuning.

[1JZ.747]

Point 1:

I think the DRDF results (liscence fee's) are really starting to show their true colours. Group 2 teams are stepping up to Group 1, 3 to 2 etc. Non Automotive based companies are putting money into the sport. Old Group 1 drivers coming back into racing, other teams expanding.

Point 2:

No. It's not ANDRA's job.

ANDRA's structure only allow's the NCC to instigate policy of it's own back. The constitution requires changes like licence classes etc to be instigated by it's members via a rule proposal.

And for that matter, I am an ANDRA official, on the NSW Divisional Council, Crew member, racer.

My position within ANDRA is volounteer based. I DO NOT get paid for any of my time, the abuse (even the threats of violence at street meets), petrol, tolls, even my lunch. It is done off my own back. I get more that 30 emails a day about ANDRA stuff, so trying to fit that inbetween working full time, trying to build my car, fixing Rocco's car, being at street meets etc, when am I going to find time to go and write something that, that would take months of research and fine tuning.

i dont think 90% of the people who step onto an ANDRA track realise you guys are volunteers.

you certainly shouldn't be takign threats of violence and the like. those people should get a 1 year ban at least. i suppose when we see peopel in group one get less than a slap on the wrist for punching some one out at an event, yet a entry level person getting a year long ban for telling a track staff member to f off, it doesnt set a good example that the full force will be shown to those people who dont treat ANDRA and track staff with respect they should be given.

any one who doesnt know Aaron should take the time to have a chat with him at the track. very helpful guy and an asset to sport compact racers.

Shane

[Beer Baron]

I have seen what happens when older cars and late model cars hit the wall and there is one thing I can tell you for sure. I would rather be in an older All Steet, solid chassis car that any late model car. They hold together alot better and just dont crumple.

in an accident crumple is a good thing. modern cars are designed to crumple and even break up on impact. it dissipates and absorbs the impact forces of the crash. in cars like your older all street solid chassis cars those forces are instead transfered through to the driver. and you end up with whiplash, hyper extension, internal injuries and nasty things like steering column through the chest. anyone who thinks the safety of cars has gone backwards from 1975 to now really need to think again. with each generation of modern passenger vehicle we get occupant protection is improved. that is a fact.

The thing that I find really confusing about this whole thing is that I see guys going out there with late model "street cars" that want to drift, they will fit a cage, buy their CAMS liscence etc etc, yet for drag racing it has to be different?? Can someone explain that to me?

The difference is like this. Say I have a highly modified nissan silvia and I want to go drifting. All i need is the following to attend practice days and comps:

Cams Level 2NS licence (costs $50 per year) + a Cams affiliated club membership (as little as $35 depends on the club)

Fire extinguisher ($20)

a couple of stickers (blue triangle $2)

secondary bonnet restraint $10

That's it. no permanent modifications to my vehicle, and no great expense either and no roll cage. $100 will get me started (providing I already have a helmet, if not allow for that too).

For circuit events it's pretty much the same, just swap the L2NS licence for a L2S licence which costs $95 a year.

Now, if my silvia is capable of running 10.8 on my drag radials then what is the expense required just to run at the wednesday night meets? My basic understanding is you need an UDL (around $400 odd), approved cage (couple thousand), some safety gear, ballistic blanket etc. You are up for a pretty big expenditure and some of the mods you need to make are pretty much permanent. that is a big outlay for a guy who just wants to accelerate hard in a straight (ish!) line for 10 seconds or so.

For guys like that it's hard to see why the costs are so high to compete in what seems (to them) like a comparitively "safe" sport (compared to drifting or circuit racing where you have long straights, higher speeds and corners etc).

[BezerkR32]

in all honesty guys, nothing will fair well with a 120mph impact with a concrete wall. air bags, crumple zones or not. id rather not be a part of the dash board but thats just me.

in an accident crumple is a good thing. modern cars are designed to crumple and even break up on impact. it dissipates and absorbs the impact forces of the crash. in cars like your older all street solid chassis cars those forces are instead transfered through to the driver. and you end up with whiplash, hyper extension, internal injuries and nasty things like steering column through the chest. anyone who thinks the safety of cars has gone backwards from 1975 to now really need to think again. with each generation of modern passenger vehicle we get occupant protection is improved. that is a fact.

The difference is like this. Say I have a highly modified nissan silvia and I want to go drifting. All i need is the following to attend practice days and comps:

Cams Level 2NS licence (costs $50 per year) + a Cams affiliated club membership (as little as $35 depends on the club)

Fire extinguisher ($20)

a couple of stickers (blue triangle $2)

secondary bonnet restraint $10

That's it. no permanent modifications to my vehicle, and no great expense either and no roll cage. $100 will get me started (providing I already have a helmet, if not allow for that too).

For circuit events it's pretty much the same, just swap the L2NS licence for a L2S licence which costs $95 a year.

Now, if my silvia is capable of running 10.8 on my drag radials then what is the expense required just to run at the wednesday night meets? My basic understanding is you need an UDL (around $400 odd), approved cage (couple thousand), some safety gear, ballistic blanket etc. You are up for a pretty big expenditure and some of the mods you need to make are pretty much permanent. that is a big outlay for a guy who just wants to accelerate hard in a straight (ish!) line for 10 seconds or so.

For guys like that it's hard to see why the costs are so high to compete in what seems (to them) like a comparitively "safe" sport (compared to drifting or circuit racing where you have long straights, higher speeds and corners etc).

[JAS-25T]

in all honesty guys, nothing will fair well with a 120mph impact with a concrete wall. air bags, crumple zones or not. id rather not be a part of the dash board but thats just me.

Yeah - that was my point above.........

ahh well, you guys can keep paying out of your arse, it seems it won't change.

unless of course you start driving around corners

[2rismo]

in all honesty guys, nothing will fair well with a 120mph impact with a concrete wall. air bags, crumple zones or not. id rather not be a part of the dash board but thats just me.

But I'd rather be in a caged sedan than one without a cage if it came to that.