Setup Question To Suspension Gurus

[robots]

Hi!

I've been budgeting my car build. And I got to the point where I had to choose whether to start saving money for those adjustable pillow-ball/spherical bearing arms or not.

Car is A31, so we are talking about s13 front suspension.

I got Tein Flex coilovers, fat sway bars front/rear, polyurethane bushings everywhere, alloy rear subframe lockers(not the whiteline rear subframe alignment ones), stock suspension arms all around except for the front(s14 lcas - longer).

I will be doing some drifting work at the track. And car would be used as daily 70% of the time. Is it really necessary to go with the adjustable arms for the track ? Only thinking about those pillow-balls getting shagged, harsh ride is giving me a hard time already.

I have enough adjustment to do wheel alignment for track work. And my car is not uber low. 350-360 front/345-355 rear.

I like how my car feels like. But this myth about stock suspension arms bending/braking and not enough adjustment is there.

So I'm asking for some good advice here.

Would really appreciate some input from SK.

Thanks!

And share some personal experience people! There has to be a fair amount of people who attend track days, driving the car hard there/drifting.

[nisskid]

need to know what ur current alignment is and what u can get at the moment. if ur happy with ur current alignment then i dont see any point going aftermarket arms, stock arms are strong enough to take a decent beating, id be more worried about aftermarket arms breaking.

[Sydneykid]

Hi!

I've been budgeting my car build. And I got to the point where I had to choose whether to start saving money for those adjustable pillow-ball/spherical bearing arms or not.

Car is A31, so we are talking about s13 front suspension.

I got Tein Flex coilovers, fat sway bars front/rear, polyurethane bushings everywhere, alloy rear subframe lockers(not the whiteline rear subframe alignment ones), stock suspension arms all around except for the front(s14 lcas - longer).

I will be doing some drifting work at the track. And car would be used as daily 70% of the time. Is it really necessary to go with the adjustable arms for the track ? Only thinking about those pillow-balls getting shagged, harsh ride is giving me a hard time already.

I have enough adjustment to do wheel alignment for track work. And my car is not uber low. 350-360 front/345-355 rear.

I like how my car feels like. But this myth about stock suspension arms bending/braking and not enough adjustment is there.

So I'm asking for some good advice here.

Would really appreciate some input from SK.

Thanks!

And share some personal experience people! There has to be a fair amount of people who attend track days, driving the car hard there/drifting.

Excuse me if this sounds a bit harsh, but this is the way I see it.

What are the current alignment specs? I can't help you decide if you have enough adjustment if I don't know where the car is right now. I know the range it needs to adjust through, for road use you need to be able ot get the front camber to around 1.5 degrees negative, for track use at least 3.5 degrees. For the rear you should be aiming at 1.0 degrees negative to 2.5 degrees negative. If you can achieve that range with what you have now then. You can leave the caster the same all the time, at least 6 degrees positive in the minimum, 8 degrees is better.

Ride height is very important, moving the height up or down 5 mm makes a difference, especially at the rear. So you need to know exactly what the ride height is, a 10 mm guess is not good enough.

What springs rates did they supply you with the Tein Flex? That's a rather important number to know for the set up.

What swaybars, diameter, hollow or solid, adjustable? Adjusting the swaybars is the best method for tuning the handling, it's the simplest way to change from road to drift set up. Changing spring rates is a right royal pain in the ass in comparison to a simple swaybar adjustment.

I would have thought that changing the rear subframe angle would be a good idea, it's a pretty simple process to swap the pineapples from road to drift settings. Why have you gone for the less tuneable solid mount? It just makes the car unnecessarily harsh all the time and gives no method of adjustment.

Steering lock, Ackerman correction and bump steer elimination are the last on this list. If you don't have enough steering lock to maintain the drift attitude you are achieving, then some changes in steering components is required. Once you have enough lock lock then you need to work on eliminating the resulting bump steer created by changing the steering components. There is uusally an accompanying loss of Ackerman that aslo needs to be addressed. Most drift cars I see how atrocious amounts of bump steer and Ackerman like a horse and cart.

If you don't know what I am talking about when I mention bump steer and Ackerman, then I strongly suggest that you leave the standard steering components in the car until you do have an understanding.

As I said a bit harsh, but better that you know the facts before you jump in.

Cheers

Gary

[BHDave]

The stock arms are up to the task. If you've re bushed everything then no need to change unless you don't have the range of adjustment there.

The stock tie rods are the only things that i have seen bend. A mate bent 2 in 2 weeks out at driftland back in the early days from clipping ripple strips.

[nisskid]

...

rather than me starting a new thread, just wondering what u think could be the cause of my lousy alignment specs.

Front:

Camber, L: -1.6 R: -1.15

Caster: L: 5.1 R: 4.9

Rear:

Camber, L: -0.7 R: -1

now this was at standard height, 2 notches up on the bilsteins than the one they come on to pass inspection. so when lower the rears were around -1.5 and the front was around -2, the caster was similar, maximum i got was 5.5. unfortunately i dont have a printout of when i got it aligned at the lower height, but these figures reflect pretty much whats going on.

currently im running whiteline adjustable rear camber bushes and ISC caster rods, i was running the whiteline caster bushes, but couldnt get enough caster, so went for a quick solution for a track day, got a bit more caster out but not much. camber bushes are at their limit and still cant go far below -1.5 at around 345-355 front and 340ish rear. caster is at its limit and cant get more than 5.5, and even then it had to be wound back down to 5 as the other side couldnt go above 5.

chassis was recently straightened to specs, rad support all correct, its been to about 3-4 different aligners and same result, im seriously out of ideas.

[robots]

Excuse me if this sounds a bit harsh, but this is the way I see it.

What are the current alignment specs? I can't help you decide if you have enough adjustment if I don't know where the car is right now. I know the range it needs to adjust through, for road use you need to be able ot get the front camber to around 1.5 degrees negative, for track use at least 3.5 degrees. For the rear you should be aiming at 1.0 degrees negative to 2.5 degrees negative. If you can achieve that range with what you have now then. You can leave the caster the same all the time, at least 6 degrees positive in the minimum, 8 degrees is better.

Ride height is very important, moving the height up or down 5 mm makes a difference, especially at the rear. So you need to know exactly what the ride height is, a 10 mm guess is not good enough.

What springs rates did they supply you with the Tein Flex? That's a rather important number to know for the set up.

What swaybars, diameter, hollow or solid, adjustable? Adjusting the swaybars is the best method for tuning the handling, it's the simplest way to change from road to drift set up. Changing spring rates is a right royal pain in the ass in comparison to a simple swaybar adjustment.

I would have thought that changing the rear subframe angle would be a good idea, it's a pretty simple process to swap the pineapples from road to drift settings. Why have you gone for the less tuneable solid mount? It just makes the car unnecessarily harsh all the time and gives no method of adjustment.

Steering lock, Ackerman correction and bump steer elimination are the last on this list. If you don't have enough steering lock to maintain the drift attitude you are achieving, then some changes in steering components is required. Once you have enough lock lock then you need to work on eliminating the resulting bump steer created by changing the steering components. There is uusally an accompanying loss of Ackerman that aslo needs to be addressed. Most drift cars I see how atrocious amounts of bump steer and Ackerman like a horse and cart.

If you don't know what I am talking about when I mention bump steer and Ackerman, then I strongly suggest that you leave the standard steering components in the car until you do have an understanding.

As I said a bit harsh, but better that you know the facts before you jump in.

Cheers

Gary

Hey, Gary!

Thanks for looking into this thread!

Truth ain't harsh

I think I can achieve the camber degrees you've mentioned in the post. As for the caster - big no. I got stock arms. And if I remember its either 5 or 6 degrees caster.

I will check the ride height today to get the right figures. If I remember correctly my front is 355mm, and rear is 360mm.

I went with the lowest spring rates - 6kg front, 4kg rear. Could be 5kg in the rear. I forgot what was the standard for them.

Swaybars: front - 30.32mm, rear - 28.16mm

Godspeed - Front bar 30.5mm, 28.29mm in the rear. Tubular chromoly construction. Stock type endlinks. Note this bar uses CRUSH bends instead of mandrel on higher quality bars.

As from here: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Nissan_240SX_...ation/Sway_Bars

I went with the solid mount rear subframe spacer because at that time I got the car, rear subframe bushings were shagged and I had to do something to cure the rear subframe movement. Right now I'm considering something else.

There are several options today: Nismo subframe bushings with Whiteline subframe alignment pineapples, Full alloy bushing replacements + Whiteline pineaples, Noltec bushings + Whiteline pineapples. I haven't made up my mind yet, which way to go. Some advice here would be appreciated.

SK, about steering lock, Ackerman and bump steer.

I have standard tie rods, inner rods. And opted for the longer lower control arms from S14. Like r32 guys do with r33 LCAs. I think I got more lock with them, but my steering became a bit dull I think. A31 steering rack is the same as S13 one. So its got more lock than r32s to start with.

What I know about bump steer and Ackerman is really not worthwhile mentioning. Read a few articles and only thing I remember if we change the position of the steering rack it would result in wrong Ackerman angle and bump steer. This rule also applies to car being too low.

I don't really know what is bump steer in the rear life, but I don't think I ever experienced it in my car. Lets say I go 80km/h and there is a slight road height difference, car hops just for a moment. And car doesn't go wild after that, stays on the line.

Actually I'm considering TEIN longer inner rods and tie rods to get more lock. But I will wait for your input, SK. Really want to hear and learn from first hand experience. I don't have stashes of money to through in the window, so I have to think 3-4times about every step of modification.

Thanks!

[robots]

I don't think you can bend tie rods that easy. The only thing that comes to my mind, is when the you hit full lock/bump stop they become pretty fragile.

I'm watching my lock ))) So I don't think I could bend them that easy.

[Sydneykid]

rather than me starting a new thread, just wondering what u think could be the cause of my lousy alignment specs.

Front:

Camber, L: -1.6 R: -1.15

Caster: L: 5.1 R: 4.9

Rear:

Camber, L: -0.7 R: -1

now this was at standard height, 2 notches up on the bilsteins than the one they come on to pass inspection. so when lower the rears were around -1.5 and the front was around -2, the caster was similar, maximum i got was 5.5. unfortunately i dont have a printout of when i got it aligned at the lower height, but these figures reflect pretty much whats going on.

currently im running whiteline adjustable rear camber bushes and ISC caster rods, i was running the whiteline caster bushes, but couldnt get enough caster, so went for a quick solution for a track day, got a bit more caster out but not much. camber bushes are at their limit and still cant go far below -1.5 at around 345-355 front and 340ish rear. caster is at its limit and cant get more than 5.5, and even then it had to be wound back down to 5 as the other side couldnt go above 5.

chassis was recently straightened to specs, rad support all correct, its been to about 3-4 different aligners and same result, im seriously out of ideas.

Let's attack it one piece of the puzzle at a time;

1. The rear camber (0.7 & 1.0) looks OK to me, my recommended road settings are 0.75 to 1.0. Keep in mind that the standard adjusters are good for around 0.25 degrees, so you can fine tune it so that they are equal if you want.

2. Your experience with the radius rods and caster is typical, people change to adjustable rods thinking that they will get more caster than with the bushes, but the fact is the difference is negligible.

3. So the excessive 0.5 degrees of front LHS camber is the only real problem, the RHS is OK at 1.15. If the front LHS ride height is 345 mm then even that (1.5) is not far off normal. At 355 mm it's still not unusual in R32 and R33's, the LHS cops a lot of impacts over the years and that wears out the bushes, the ones that you haven't changed so far. The first thing I would check is the condition of the inner lower control arm bushes, pretty much all R32's and most R33's I see these days those bushes are stuffed and should be replaced. Jack it up and lever it around with a decent sized screw driver, there should be almost zero movement. They are pretty easy to replace, the same polyurethane bush part number fits R32GTST and R33GTST (GTR's have ball joints not bushes). I have a couple of sets in stock so let me know if you need them.

If the bushes are OK, then there are 2 other solutions.

If it's an R32GTST then you can space the upper control arms brackets away from the inner guard to remove some of the camber. The pounding that I mentioned above pushes the inner mounts further inwards and hence adds camber, which may also explain the missing caster. There is enough length on the studs for spacers to fitted between the brackets (there are 2 brackers, 1 front and 1 rear of the arm) and the inner guard. Around 2 mm spacers are usually enough remove 0.75 degrees, then you can use the adjusters to fine tune it to where you want.

If it's an R33 then it's not so easy, the brackets are welded to the inner guards. Because of theur superior design (compared to R32's) the wide spread upper control arms don't bend the inner guard. But what they do do is wear out the inner bushes. So you will need to check the wear on them using the screwdriver leverage method. The bad news is no one makes replacement bushes for the inner uppers that I know of. So you may have to replace the arm. Let's cross that bridge when/if we come to it.

Cheers

Gary

[nisskid]

Let's attack it one piece of the puzzle at a time;

1. The rear camber (0.7 & 1.0) looks OK to me, my recommended road settings are 0.75 to 1.0. Keep in mind that the standard adjusters are good for around 0.25 degrees, so you can fine tune it so that they are equal if you want.

2. Your experience with the radius rods and caster is typical, people change to adjustable rods thinking that they will get more caster than with the bushes, but the fact is the difference is negligible.

3. So the excessive 0.5 degrees of front LHS camber is the only real problem, the RHS is OK at 1.15. If the front LHS ride height is 345 mm then even that (1.5) is not far off normal. At 355 mm it's still not unusual in R32 and R33's, the LHS cops a lot of impacts over the years and that wears out the bushes, the ones that you haven't changed so far. The first thing I would check is the condition of the inner lower control arm bushes, pretty much all R32's and most R33's I see these days those bushes are stuffed and should be replaced. Jack it up and lever it around with a decent sized screw driver, there should be almost zero movement. They are pretty easy to replace, the same polyurethane bush part number fits R32GTST and R33GTST (GTR's have ball joints not bushes). I have a couple of sets in stock so let me know if you need them.

If the bushes are OK, then there are 2 other solutions.

If it's an R32GTST then you can space the upper control arms brackets away from the inner guard to remove some of the camber. The pounding that I mentioned above pushes the inner mounts further inwards and hence adds camber, which may also explain the missing caster. There is enough length on the studs for spacers to fitted between the brackets (there are 2 brackers, 1 front and 1 rear of the arm) and the inner guard. Around 2 mm spacers are usually enough remove 0.75 degrees, then you can use the adjusters to fine tune it to where you want.

If it's an R33 then it's not so easy, the brackets are welded to the inner guards. Because of theur superior design (compared to R32's) the wide spread upper control arms don't bend the inner guard. But what they do do is wear out the inner bushes. So you will need to check the wear on them using the screwdriver leverage method. The bad news is no one makes replacement bushes for the inner uppers that I know of. So you may have to replace the arm. Let's cross that bridge when/if we come to it.

Cheers

Gary

1. as i mentioned, those figures are at stock height, once lowered to the recommended height the camber goes up to around -1.5. my car is a track/street car but the setup is designed for track, so treat it as though its purely a track car. now since its meant for the track, -1.5 might be fine, but id at least like the adjustability, and with the whiteline bushes i am un able to get below -1.5 at reccomended height.

2. still, regardless of what im using there is something not right, this is my main issue, not so worried about camber as the car is more track orientated, not being able to reduce the camber below -1.5 isnt such an issue, but having only 5 degrees of caster is whats hurting, especially for drift.

3. not so worried about excessive camber, just a bit worried about how it varies so much from side to side.

the spacers sound alright, but really id want to be sure they could fix the caster issue as well, how exactly would they affect the caster?

[robots]

Hey, guys, any more input on my case ? thanks! )))

[nisskid]

have u read any of the responses? ur question has been answered 3 times over.

[Sydneykid]

Hey, Gary!

Thanks for looking into this thread!

Truth ain't harsh

I think I can achieve the camber degrees you've mentioned in the post. As for the caster - big no. I got stock arms. And if I remember its either 5 or 6 degrees caster.

I will check the ride height today to get the right figures. If I remember correctly my front is 355mm, and rear is 360mm.

I went with the lowest spring rates - 6kg front, 4kg rear. Could be 5kg in the rear. I forgot what was the standard for them.

Swaybars: front - 30.32mm, rear - 28.16mm

Godspeed - Front bar 30.5mm, 28.29mm in the rear. Tubular chromoly construction. Stock type endlinks. Note this bar uses CRUSH bends instead of mandrel on higher quality bars.

As from here: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Nissan_240SX_...ation/Sway_Bars

I went with the solid mount rear subframe spacer because at that time I got the car, rear subframe bushings were shagged and I had to do something to cure the rear subframe movement. Right now I'm considering something else.

There are several options today: Nismo subframe bushings with Whiteline subframe alignment pineapples, Full alloy bushing replacements + Whiteline pineaples, Noltec bushings + Whiteline pineapples. I haven't made up my mind yet, which way to go. Some advice here would be appreciated.

SK, about steering lock, Ackerman and bump steer.

I have standard tie rods, inner rods. And opted for the longer lower control arms from S14. Like r32 guys do with r33 LCAs. I think I got more lock with them, but my steering became a bit dull I think. A31 steering rack is the same as S13 one. So its got more lock than r32s to start with.

What I know about bump steer and Ackerman is really not worthwhile mentioning. Read a few articles and only thing I remember if we change the position of the steering rack it would result in wrong Ackerman angle and bump steer. This rule also applies to car being too low.

I don't really know what is bump steer in the rear life, but I don't think I ever experienced it in my car. Lets say I go 80km/h and there is a slight road height difference, car hops just for a moment. And car doesn't go wild after that, stays on the line.

Actually I'm considering TEIN longer inner rods and tie rods to get more lock. But I will wait for your input, SK. Really want to hear and learn from first hand experience. I don't have stashes of money to through in the window, so I have to think 3-4times about every step of modification.

Thanks!

In no particular order;

I use Noltec rear subframe bushes and the Whiteline Rear Subframe Alignment kit in all of the road + track use cars. If the standard bushes are OK, then I leave them for road cars. The regs we race under don't allow solid replacements for bushes, rubber to polyurethane is OK of course, they are both elastomeric.

Bump steer is simple to measure. On the front, take the springs out, put the struts back in, stick the car on the wheel aligner and measure the toe change as you jack one wheel up and down. Ideally there should be any change in the toe. On the rear its even easier, you leave both the springs and shocks out. As for the front, stick the car on the wheel aligner and measure the toe change as you jack one wheel up and down. Ideally there shouldn't be any change in the toe.

What you feel with bump steer is easy to recognise once you have felt it. When a front wheel hits a bump the car deviates from the course you chosen with the steering wheel. If the bump steer is bad you have to turn the steering wheel to get back on course. Wha tshould happen when you hit a bump is the the suspension should go up and down, but you shouldn't have to correct for it. The rear is similar, no stering wheel of course, but it deviates from it course when it hits a bump. So you have to compensate for the movement at the rear with a small correction of the steering wheel. At high speed when thee is noticeable slip angle and bumps are encounterd you end up flicking the steering wheel to compensate for the front and rear bump steer. This lessens the tyres' already limited grip.

Ackerman is also pretty simple to measure, put the car on the wheel aligner and measure how much toe out occurs as you turn the steering wheel. The more degrees of turn of the wheels the larger the amount of toe out should be. Simplistically 1 mm toe out for every 10 degrees of steering angle.

Cheers

Gary

[robots]

Any suggestions on increasing steering lock ? Or some info about TEIN longer inner/outer tie rods ? Or no good to go this way ?

[Sydneykid]

Any suggestions on increasing steering lock ? Or some info about TEIN longer inner/outer tie rods ? Or no good to go this way ?

Stand alone, longer steering tie rods make no difference to the amount of steering lock. Generally they are used to compensate for longer or relocated lower control arms (used to increase camber). Changing the steering rack for one with more travel is the best way to increase steering lock as it doesn't disrupt the other geometry provided the steering pivot points are alignment with the other suspension pivots (most importantly lower control arm inner joint).

Cheers

Gary

[nisskid]

ive used steering rack spacers, they work fine and give u a decent amount more lock. cost fark all, labour is the main cost if u dont do it urself.

[Sydneykid]

ive used steering rack spacers, they work fine and give u a decent amount more lock. cost fark all, labour is the main cost if u dont do it urself.

Buy and installation is easy, but have you measured and corrected the bump steer? The steering pivot points are now no longer in alignment with the lower control arm inner joint, hence you have introduced a noticeable amount of bump steer . Which is a good 2 days work to correct if you know what you are doing, have the measurement tools and the hardware items requird to fix it.

Cheers

Gary

[nisskid]

nope, car is hardly a top level competitor, so on a budget the spacers are fine, i have a lot bigger issues than bump steer at the moment, and without much $$ to work with, spacers were the best option.

saying that, i may be replacing the current rack as it seems to be having issues: http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/St...es-t228810.html

so might just go with something with more lock.

[robots]

SK, thanks for all the tips. So you reckon all the druft-trendy steering lock enhancement options are all crap ? Like steering rack spacers, longer tie rods, modification of hubs/knuckles ?

Sorry to bother you with my questions, SK, but could you specify a desired ride height for A31 ? I tried to use R32 figures you posted before, maybe I'm wrong ?

Thanks in advance!

[nisskid]

those modifications are used by the top drifters across the world, they are hardly crap. depends what ur car is for, but u have to remember that with drift, grip isnt as important as it is in racing, gaining more angle, more response and predictability often take preference, depends what style of drifting ur interested as well. gaining a lot of angle is often worth sacrificing a little amount of grip.

[Sydneykid]

those modifications are used by the top drifters across the world, they are hardly crap. depends what ur car is for, but u have to remember that with drift, grip isnt as important as it is in racing, gaining more angle, more response and predictability often take preference, depends what style of drifting ur interested as well. gaining a lot of angle is often worth sacrificing a little amount of grip.

Let's start off this way, Robbie won last years Drift Australia Championship and I can assure you his car had bump steer correction carried out. Millen's car in the US Drift also the same. Using the parts is not the issue, it's what you do to correct the issues they create that's important. I have no idea whether the Jap guys do proper set up, all I know is they should. Jap circuits are extremely flat, plus they use tarmac not gravel likes we do, so bumps may not be the issue that they are here. But they are still an issue no matter where the track is.

I bolded and underlined predictability above, because that's exactly what bump steer takes away from you. Lossing a drift because the car hits a bump and steers itself is not what I consider a good idea. Maybe less guys would hit stuff if they removed the unpredicatablity.

Cheers

Gary