"affordable" Cars With A Dsg?

[Roy]

Well...i still like to masturbate manually

[NickR33]

so lets get this straight... you would much rather be hunched over working away furiously than laying back letting TWO hot chicks take turns to 'work your gears'... sorry Roy but I gotta disagree on this one;)

[ferni]

So all Golfs have DSG's or just the R32 and GTi which I already mentioned?

Not sure about Jettas. But all the Diesel golfs have an option of DSG. The GTI is Petrol but can have the DSG, same with the R32.

Basically the DSG is the replacement for the Auto box on the above listed cars. If you tick the auto box, it is a DSG.

Great gearbox, i just bought a GTI for daily driving, one of the reasons i bought it was for the DSG, plus it's good on fuel and doesn't go to bad. Problem is now i don't drive the GTR enough

[Slide]

Well...i still like to masturbate manually

Join the revolution. have someone/something else do it for you.

[EKSMUD]

DSG's (or should I say a dual clutch transmission) are one of those new automotive toys that will eventually dominate the automotive world much like its predecessor the tiptronic gearbox did.

But unlike the tiptronic gearbox - which really is rubbish - the DSG is a truely great thing and the more I've been exposed to them the more I think I may never want to buy a genuine manual gearbox again. So many forum hero's rubbish these things and I know it's been one of the complaints of the new GT-R but if you ever really get a chance to see what one of these things can do and understand how much the driver still needs to input one to make a car drive perfectly and yet discover how much one of these things can improve your driving compared to a manual stick you'll understand why some people like me think they are the bee's knees.

The hardest part is finding cars which actually have one that normal people can afford. Just because a car as some flappy paddles attached to the steering wheel doesn't mean it has a DSG gearbox. The ever reveired Jerermy Clarkson often goes on about how he hates "flappy paddle gearboxes" but usually the ones he complains about are actually just tiptronics (which I agree are rubbish). More and more he is starting to compliment them and everytime he has it has been a DSG box and yet he has never publically put 2 and 2 together on this front. I guess the hard part is people keep calling all these things different things.

For example - BMW have their SMG gearboxes but they are just a tiptronic gearbox. They have just released their first DSG style box in the new M3 only within the last month and won't be available until the end of the year I think. Other big names like Aston Martin, Porsche and Mercedes also use tiptronics which are really no different to the ones found in all the falcadores and magnas.

The first experiences I had with a propper DGS was in a Maserati Gran Sport which is the same unit as found in the 360 Straddale, which has been since improved in the F430. The one in the Audi R8 is just as brilliant especially on a track. But the hard part is all of these cars are so expensive and the new GT-R is going to fall under this catagory as well.

So the point of this thread was to try and work-out which cars currently that fall under "Affordable" (which I'm classing as under $100K) actually have one of these gearboxes as last night I could only think of a few.

I've driven both the VW Golf R32 and the Passat R36 and their ones are one of the best. So much so that it was one of the deciding factors in my ordering one of the new R36 Passat Wagons for the Mrs. The GTi also has it but I'm not sure if other VW's come with it or not?

I also just drove one of the new EVO X MR SST's back from Syd to Melb the fun way and again the gearbox in that was great and really what made me start this thread. But they are the only cars I can think of that have one. Is there any others I'm missing??

BMW 335i comes with the six-speed manu-matic shifts.altought it is not as good as the DSG but it's 50 percent faster than the SMG, and the engine is very good i reckon.

the new M3 with their new 7-speed 'M DCT' gearbox is available now, saw the blue e92 M3 convertible in the showroom last week.

Edited October 13, 2008 by EKSMUD

[NickR33]

Not sure about Jettas. But all the Diesel golfs have an option of DSG. The GTI is Petrol but can have the DSG, same with the R32.

Basically the DSG is the replacement for the Auto box on the above listed cars. If you tick the auto box, it is a DSG.

Great gearbox, i just bought a GTI for daily driving, one of the reasons i bought it was for the DSG, plus it's good on fuel and doesn't go to bad. Problem is now i don't drive the GTR enough

my folks just bought the new diesel golf, not DSG tho sadly... its a bloody good performer for how frugal it is, would embarass many sportscars in the traffic light grand prix

[ferni]

my folks just bought the new diesel golf, not DSG tho sadly... its a bloody good performer for how frugal it is, would embarass many sportscars in the traffic light grand prix

The Diesels have awesome amounts of torque, but they are slow off the line for that first second, that hurts their 0-100 time... I really liked driving the diesels, i was so close to buying one... the extras of the GTI suckered me in.

Ohh and the DSG on the Diesels don't have the flappy paddles... only the GTI and GT have the paddles.

[dangerous_daveo]

I've got a Jetta TSI, which only comes with the DSG box. It deadset sold me on the car. $40k for a sedan with everything on it, a boot bigger than everything other than an Aurion (which is a much bigger car) 8l per 100kms. And it is deadset smoother than silk. First time I've taken everyone for a drive in it, I've got to 60kmh, and told them its in 6th gear. They just don't believe it. Hell I cant even feel the changes and I'm driving it! 8ms changes. Auto when you want, manual when you want. Sport when you want manual but you are being lazy.

Also, you can now for about $1k get the flappy paddle wheel for all the VW models. Which is a handy feature, as you can just flick it down a few gears, do what you need to, then after a set time it will go back to auto mode by itself.

I think the only VWs that still run normal autos are the base base models. But with the MK6 coming out they will all be DSG, and 7 speed options.

Also correct me if I am wrong, but I dont think the Ferraris are running dual clutch boxes yet, I think they just have a REALLY good hydrolic set up with a single. The new new models might tho.

In a word, its the way of the future, they are the greatest thing ever.

[Mayuri Krab]

So with DSG, do you need a manual license to drive it? Or can you drive it with only an C-A license like tiptronic?

[JAS-25T]

The Diesels have awesome amounts of torque, but they are slow off the line for that first second, that hurts their 0-100 time... I really liked driving the diesels, i was so close to buying one... the extras of the GTI suckered me in.

Ohh and the DSG on the Diesels don't have the flappy paddles... only the GTI and GT have the paddles.

I bought the GT Sport Diesel. This is the only diesel that has the paddles out of the golf range and @ 125kw and 350nm is no slouch.

But yeah off the line untill the clutch engages it's slowish. once that hit's full torque @ a smidge under 2000rpm and it's all systems go.

I'd like to know if there is some way of clutch dumping similar to the launch system in the GTR? ahahah

the paddles are excelent and the torque band of the diesel just keeps pinning you to the seat even though it's not as fast as the GTI.

[NickR33]

The Diesels have awesome amounts of torque, but they are slow off the line for that first second, that hurts their 0-100 time... I really liked driving the diesels, i was so close to buying one... the extras of the GTI suckered me in.

Ohh and the DSG on the Diesels don't have the flappy paddles... only the GTI and GT have the paddles.

yeah I would have bought the GTI too... but I'm still damn impressed with the Diesel, it pins you in the seat but you have to be pretty liberal with the throttle

would be extra fun with the paddles JAS-25T!

[JAS-25T]

taking into consideration the economy/performance you can't look past the diesel.

it's not that much slower than its petrol counterparts either.

thrashing the crap out of it and going through the 6 speed DSG box with the paddles like a seagull flapping to get a chip, and still getting 800+kms out of 55L.

win.

[ferni]

I bought the GT Sport Diesel. This is the only diesel that has the paddles out of the golf range and @ 125kw and 350nm is no slouch.

But yeah off the line untill the clutch engages it's slowish. once that hit's full torque @ a smidge under 2000rpm and it's all systems go.

I'd like to know if there is some way of clutch dumping similar to the launch system in the GTR? ahahah

the paddles are excelent and the torque band of the diesel just keeps pinning you to the seat even though it's not as fast as the GTI.

yeah i half wish i bought the GT diesel, the extra fuel econ and torque would of been nice....

As for launching, yeah DSG's have launch control If i remember correctly, it's while stationary, foot on brake, put it into sport mode, then to manual mode, then back to sport mode. Then rev the car, it should hold at 3,000rpm, and let go of the brake when ready

I'd say the diesels feel faster than the GTI because of all that torque... even though i know they aren't actually as fast. And i only drove the 107kw Diesel not the 125kw one....

Ohh and if anyone is looking to buy a golf, or any VW in Vic, then drop me a line and i can hook you up, I have a mate who works for VW, gave me a pretty good price

[dangerous_daveo]

If you think the GTI is slow, just chip it :-p Ditto with the diesels really.

And yeah, they all have launch control. From what the VW forum guys have said its turn ESP off, put it in either manual or sport, foot on brake, foot on accelerator, take your foot off the brake and away you go!

[Lachlan33]

Just a correction on the original post.

The Ferrar F1 style paddle shift you mentioned is not Dual clutch transmission. I believe only the new California has DCT, a 7 speed one at that.

The F1 in all the ferrari's to date have just been evoloutions of the system first introduced in the 355. Its a Sequential gearbox with an automatic clutch. Not a dual clutch transmission like you see in alot of new cars. Infact, the Gran Sport you drove was not DCT either as that uses the same system borrowed from Ferrari. Lamborghini don't yet use DCT either.

I believe the Ferrari/Masser/Lambo system is simply a sequential gearbox with a hydraulic computer controller clutch. They are impressive none the less, but DCT allows for quicker shift times than Ferrari could squeeze out of their system. I think the new California is meant to have quicker shifts than even a new Scuderia, simply owering to the use of DCT.

[hal32]

dual clutch transmissions etc. all sound great and that, but one possible issue is that we'll end up with a market flooded with cheap and nasty dual clutches and even more cheap and nasty tiptronics which are all going to suck, and no option of just standard manuals until you get top-end. it's not hard to build a good manual box cheaply...

maybe by the time i'm looking for a newer car i'll have heaps of cash and won't have to worry.

[LotusGTR]

I have a GTI DSG and it is my daily driver. It offers a great compromise between the to and from work slog and being a little sporty when the mood takes you. After about a week I'm HANGING for the manual in my GTR. Couldn't live with the DSG alone. We run TDI Jettas with DSG on the work fleet. They are awesome cars. Diesel is so torquey and the DSG is hilarious as you just keep throwing gears at it and it keeps going unabated. I believe you can get a non DSG auto option. The Tiguans have no DSG option as it can't be packaged.

With hindsight I would have got the diesel GT as it's kind of quirky and I hear the ride is far less harsh than the GTI, which is actually crap. I did find on the test drive the diesel didn't match the DSG as well and that was my deciding factor in the end. My Jap coil over'ed, swaybar'ed, RE55 shod GTR rides better in some circumstances........

'Launch control' is no more scientific (IMHO) than turning the traction control off and doing a brakey. Luckily for the GTI the torque and available traction on a dry road seem to roughly match. Do it in the wet or adverse conditions and it simply wheelspins straight into the limiter. Sounds to me like something a dealership salesman made up. Mine certainly did......Still, it's a good jigga overall.

[LotusGTR]

Snowy, just have to correct you, maybe you were in a hurry.

The SMG in BMW's isn't a "tiptronic", it's an automated clutch manual gearbox. And I think it's appalling.

The term Tiptronic was coined by Porsche in the early 90's for their "sporty" auto gearboxed 911. It was the first vehicle to have the extra little selector slot beside the normal shift.

Over the years, seems most people have somehow started calling all gear selectors with the Porsche style +/- shifters Tiptronic.

I love "DSG's", IF they're in the right car. And I think we shouldn't be calling them DSG, as thats just Volkswagen's term for it. How about we call them dual clutch transmissions (DCT)?

IMO, while a DCT is great for a sports car, it's not ideal for a larger luxurious style car or tight driving situations, where a more conventional automatic 'box is much better. See what can be done with the ZF auto for instance, given the right programming and actual locking torque convertor, it can be smooth as silk, while still blipping the throttle when a manual downshift has been asked of it. A DCT on the other hand can sometimes be caught nappuing between gears, especially in auto mode. Yes, even VW's, which is seen as one of the best.

I think within 10 years, there'll be only two gearboxes offered. A smart traditional automatic box with high tech convertor lockup for great economy and smoothness, and DCT for more sporting cars.

I agree with the caught napping comment. I think the box is 'intelligent' and if you trick it into taking a higher gear by using a light throttle in auto, and then at the right millisecond step into the throttle once the new gear is selected, it bogs down. It is still a great thing overall. Love the way it'll hunt up and down with such seamless speed when you try and use all the available throttle in a gear with out getting it to change down, but you give it too much gas and does change down then you lift and it goes back to your original gear. You know what I mean if you have one (I hope!)

[ras1983]

Thread resurrection: a couple of years on, have the DCT boxes been reliable for you guys? I'm thinking of getting something like a Polo GTi as my next daily driver (once I get sick of the XR5) but I'd like to know whether the dual clutch boxes have been reliable or not?

[bluey33]

Audi DSG's (S-tronic) are far from reliable.

Worked for Audi for 4 years.

VW supposedly have same issues on their cars, but that's just from talking to VW techs. (no personal experience on them)

VW/Audi and others share a lot of the same parts on their vehicles.

Apparently Audi have a revised clutch kit which will fix the issue. We were doing about 1-2 DSG/S-tronics a day and diagnosing prob 5 a day for jerking,shifting hard etc.

We got to the point that we would stop rebuilding them (replacing clutches) because the new ones we were putting in were not the revised part and of course was an ongoing problem.

If buying Audi/VW I would ring up a service centre and ask to speak to the Foreman and quickly ask him his opinion on whether issues are still happening/is the revised part out and on what models/build date.

I resigned DEC last yr and problem was not fixed and could easily ask boys from old work when it is if people are keen on the info.

I think Audi's are a wicked car just a shame their S-tronic (dual clutch) gearbox's let them down.