Guilt-toy Now Running On E85 !

[joeyjoejoejuniorshabadoo]

Your 555's still have more in em on E85 joeyjoejoe imo.

[dano4127]

Hey Guys,

I have just created a Petition thread in the facebook group: http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?topic=10...gid=32246238262

I want to put together a petition to send to the fuel companies to get in there faces about distributing this fuel more widespread keen as to get it in brissey

so yea chuck on your details and show your support

Cheers,

Dan

[rapidroy]

One thought on petitions... In the States (I'm from Las Vegas) they market E85 as a "Green Fuel".

It helps the environment and is renewable (and drives the food prices up because we are converting grain into ethanol instead of eating it…) so you might consider that approach.

Australia is obsessed with the environment and so called “green” things. So, instead of the “it’s good for my car” approach, try “it will help the environment and make us less dependant on foreign oil!” The government will love that! The servos can market it!

I have friends in the states that have converted their cars to E85 and they love it too!

I ran 15% E85 and 85% Premium in my STI and had great results. (Helps my GTR also!) Alway fun mixing fuels at the pump!

Edited June 18, 2009 by rapidroy

[Guilt-Toy]

I have mentioned this before but here we go again.

There is no point doing petitions to get fuel companys to sell e85. Don't you think that if there was a way a fuel company could make more money they would be there making it?

Its not that they don't want to sell E85 its because the cost outlay to get the servo's fuel tank prepared and converted over to e85 is very expensive, it cost Rozelle $40,000 to upgrade the servo to stock E85 and the only reason why they have gone through this trouble is because they have a contract to supply E85 for CSR's company cars so they will be able to continually sell the fuel to make the money back.

Thats why all the other servo's had to stop selling E85 is because they have not had the required upgrades and you could just think about it like this, when could a independant servo be able to afford $40,000 just so they can make 1c a litre of sales from E85.. How many litres of fuel would they have to sell to make the money back before making a profit ?

a hell of alot, for the moment I think we are pretty lucky that United have offered E85 in few outlets they have so we have been able to do some testing and learn a bit out ethanol and even more so we are very lucky that they are selling it to the public as well! yes it does have a great potential but I just don't think that we will be seeing more outlets in the near future just because of this legal requirement to sell e85.

Does anyone know what happens to the E85 that stored in a non approved tank? the extra water that gets in there would be a concern has there been any tests ? do we know for sure what happens to the fuel in non converted tanks? whats the whole reason behind all this bullshit???.

I think that would be the place to start you might get more traction that way.

just something to think about.

[Sydneykid]

555's

If that's 13B turbo 555's they actually flow 565 to 570 cc's at 34 psi. My standard FPR was 38 psi, so they were actually flowing 580 cc's. For the R33GTST I bumped that up to 3 bar, 44 psi, with a Nismo AFPR and they now flow more than 650 cc's plus the atomisation looks better on the flow tester. So 350 rwkw on E85 should be possible.

Cheers

Gary

[Guilt-Toy]

If that's 13B turbo 555's they actually flow 565 to 570 cc's at 34 psi. My standard FPR was 38 psi, so they were actually flowing 580 cc's. For the R33GTST I bumped that up to 3 bar, 44 psi, with a Nismo AFPR and they now flow more than 650 cc's plus the atomisation looks better on the flow tester. So 350 rwkw on E85 should be possible.

Cheers

Gary

I ran out of injectors with Nismo 740cc at 340rwkw.

[Sydneykid]

I have mentioned this before but here we go again.

There is no point doing petitions to get fuel companys to sell e85. Don't you think that if there was a way a fuel company could make more money they would be there making it?

Its not that they don't want to sell E85 its because the cost outlay to get the servo's fuel tank prepared and converted over to e85 is very expensive, it cost Rozelle $40,000 to upgrade the servo to stock E85 and the only reason why they have gone through this trouble is because they have a contract to supply E85 for CSR's company cars so they will be able to continually sell the fuel to make the money back.

Thats why all the other servo's had to stop selling E85 is because they have not had the required upgrades and you could just think about it like this, when could a independant servo be able to afford $40,000 just so they can make 1c a litre of sales from E85.. How many litres of fuel would they have to sell to make the money back before making a profit ?

a hell of alot, for the moment I think we are pretty lucky that United have offered E85 in few outlets they have so we have been able to do some testing and learn a bit out ethanol and even more so we are very lucky that they are selling it to the public as well! yes it does have a great potential but I just don't think that we will be seeing more outlets in the near future just because of this legal requirement to sell e85.

Does anyone know what happens to the E85 that stored in a non approved tank? the extra water that gets in there would be a concern has there been any tests ? do we know for sure what happens to the fuel in non converted tanks? whats the whole reason behind all this bullshit???.

I think that would be the place to start you might get more traction that way.

just something to think about.

This is very interesting. Around $40K is what it would cost these days to install a complete new underground tank of around 10,000 litres based on what I heard around the servos a few years back when 98 was introduced. Some had to have an extra tank and pumps installed so they could sell 92, 95 and 98. I can't see how it would be necessary to spend $40K to upgrade an existing tank for E85, a water filter and control valve would be a few hundered dollars and most. Recalibrating the existing pumps is a no brainer, lucky to cost $500 to do it. My thoughts are that anyone quoting $40K is talking about installing a brand new tank, not upgrading an existing one.

That's were the volume comes into play, obviously Rozelle had enough volume to justify the extra tank hence the $40K, or maybe CSR subsidised the tank. Once Holden introduces the E85 Commodore I suspect that the volume will be there for new tanks to be installed. Until then the only viable option would be for servos to convert existing tanks to E85. That means losing one other variety of fuel that they currently sell. That's still a volume question, will they sell more E85 than the current fue lthat is in that tank. Right now my guess would be no, there simply isn't the volume of E85 users.

But there is another alternative, instead of making only 1 or 2 cents per litre from the current E85 cost of 99 cents per litre, how about they charge the same as unleaded 92, that's $1.10 to $1.30 depending on the day of the week. Now that's 11 to 31 cents profit per litre, hence paying for the $40K tank with around 2,000 tank fills. I for one wouldn't mind paying 92 ron prices for 105 ron fuel. The truth is I would save the difference by not having to drive to Rozelle or Lansdown. Plus it's cheaper than buying E85 in drums which some guys do now.

Food for thought?

Cheers

Gary

[Guilt-Toy]

yeah it is all well and good to sell e85 at 92 ron prices for the racers out there but I don't think people would pay that price in flex cars because then they could get more km's out of a tank of 92 for the same price then a tank of e85.

I believe the whole bowser needs to be replaced and the tank needs to be completly re-lined on the inside for e85 ??

I aint 100 % sure of the process but I was told that it costs 40k to convert over and seeing the amount of servo's that have had the upgrades you would think that there would be high cost involved.

[Sydneykid]

I ran out of injectors with Nismo 740cc at 340rwkw.

What fuel pressure?

What boost?

What RPM?

It's a bit of a circle, as usual with cars.

Smaller injector plus higher pressure = higher flow

Until the fuel pump runs out of flow at that pressure

Then bigger injectors at lower pressure works as the pump doesn't have to work as hard against that lower pressure

That is further complicated when we add boost into the equation. Effective fuel pressure for the injectors + boost pressure = pressure that the pump must deliver.

It is possible for one car to make 340 rwkw at 1 bar, but another car might take 2.5 bar to make 340 rwkw, this effects the fuel flow.

Add to that the fact that a 340 at 1 bar engine can accommodate a wole lot more ignition timing and runs lower inlet temps, so it makes the 340 "easier" than the 340 at 2.5 bar engine.

To further complicate it, the higher rpm the 340 is developed at the smaller time the injector has to be effectively open (ie; while the inlet valve is open).

Should I mention tuning variations? Suffice to say there are still quite few arguments going on about what A/F ratios to use for the best from E85.

Keeping the above factors in mind I couldn't give an absolute yes or no, hence why "350 rwkw on E85 should be possible". Most certainly not guaranteed and very much depending on lots of factors.

Cheers

Gary

[Sydneykid]

yeah it is all well and good to sell e85 at 92 ron prices for the racers out there but I don't think people would pay that price in flex cars because then they could get more km's out of a tank of 92 for the same price then a tank of e85.

The two flex cars I have tried, both SAAB's, used 25% to 30% more E85 than 92, about 20% to 25% more than 98. So the same price for 92 and E85 would work out around the same cost per K. And slightly lower cost per K than 98, both for better performance.

I believe the whole bowser needs to be replaced and the tank needs to be completly re-lined on the inside for e85 ??

About 1/3rd of all undergrounds tanks are the older, uncoated style. They have to be replaced, regardless of E85, in the next 5 years to pass EPA requirements. The later under ground tanks (the other 2/3rds) are all coated. So I don't see that E85 is a big issue for the 2/3rds and the other 1/3rd has to do it anyway. That was the situation in 2005 when the audit was carried out by AAL. Obviously it's better (more coated tanks) now.

I aint 100 % sure of the process but I was told that it costs 40k to convert over and seeing the amount of servo's that have had the upgrades you would think that there would be high cost involved.

Neither am I, but I do know that you could spend $40K on new multiple outlet, temperature and fuel density corrected, EFT enabled pumps. And they are being installed everyday in servos all over the place. If the volume is there then the money is, the trick is getting past the time of small volume, because there is no doubt that E85 will be mainstream in not too many years.

In the electronic industry we are what would be called "Early Adopters" and as such we have to pay more for the priveledge of being first with the latest. Compared to what blue ray players and their DVD's cost, paying for E85 at 92 prices is not so bad. In car speak, people pay more for a Prius than an Echo, just for the sake of being seen green, we wouldn't be paying more for being green, just the same or even less if you talk 98. That's not so terrible after all.

Cheers

Gary

[SLAPS]

Who's pulled their pump recently to checkout their sock after running E85?

Almost thinking its a bogus pic. :S

Edited June 20, 2009 by SLAPS

[Guilt-Toy]

Who's pulled their pump recently to checkout their sock after running E85?

Almost thinking its a bogus pic. :S

Damn!! thats a concern!!!

I will have to check mine when if i ever see my car again

[SLAPS]

Definitely that sock looks fairly extreme.

I've got mine apart again doing a little more work so I might as well pull the pump and check out the socks condition.

[Guilt-Toy]

Definitely that sock looks fairly extreme.

I've got mine apart again doing a little more work so I might as well pull the pump and check out the socks condition.

yeah you need to post up results and info etc etc

[SATO GTS]

Which pump has run which fuel to get the idea?

[Adriano]

Sure it wasn't being used as a coffee pump?

[SS8_Gohan]

ok guys, my car is now running on E85. It's a NISTUNE remap and i don't have the cable or software yet, so yeah... can't switch if i run out of fuel in the middle of nowhere

Thought i'd add some thoughts on the injector talk. I've got 480cc Nismo's at the moment in the car, and stock FPR. We're running out of injectors at around 260rwkw, 15psi.

By rough calculations, 480cc = 480hp = ~350kw less 50kw drive-train loss = 300rwkw. That's what i was thinking... but yes, forgot to add that there is a 30% fuel increase with E85 So yah, we ran out... bugger.

To add to more good results with this fuel, i was getting 250rwkw at 17.5psi and with 2.5psi less, and not quite a flat AFR (runs pretty rich near top end, there's a little bit there if that's flattened out) we got +10rwkw, increased full boost response by about 100-200rpm and about 30nm more torque i believe. Don't have the dyno sheet, but yeah, basically the curve moved left and up, a weird looking combo, but cool none-the-less

getting some 740cc injectors asap. My tuner doesn't like adj FPR's, so we didn't go down that road.

[juggernaut1]

That would be Paul,

His car is an animal. One of the quickest S13s in the country.

The 3076 is rated at 525hp. So it makes sense that the current power level is the highest efficient limit.

348 is at 19psi and 6800rpm.

At 23psi we might reach 360rwkw which would be really pushing the turbo. For the sake of reliability 350rwkw is plenty.

Just got an email from PJ (Paul) and he just ran 503 rwhp on the JEM dyno with 25 psi on a 3076 and 1.12 exhaust housing on E85 with 1600cc indy blue injectors.

He mentioned they did run up to 27.5 psi boost and made more power but were concerned for the intregity of the SR20 block as it wasn't sleeved.

376 rwks' has surely got to be a record out of a 3076 on any engine.....

Edited June 25, 2009 by juggernaut1

[SirRacer]

For your info, it costs about 240k NZD to retank a servo including 24 pumps etc. Im a banker and a client is retanking his servo at the moment. Tanks are no different for biofuel mixes from what he says.

[Sydneykid]

I had a short chat with the manager at Lansdowne today, he has locked the E85 pump until something is cleared up, wouldn't tell me what, why or when. So it's back to Rozelle for me.

Cheers

Gary