Rebuilt 26 Or Rb26/30 Into R32 Gtr?

[OzLeroy]

Hi guys

Do i rebuild my RB26 with forged internals and 2860-5s or do I go a little more crazy (and expensive) and go for a RB26/30 hybrid perhaps with 2860-10's (or GT-RS)?

I am aiming for ~270kw at the wheels initially after a tune, post rebuild. I will then chase 300-350 kw at the wheels later on (when my wallet is recovers sometime next century). I want headroom for up to 450kw down the track if I decide to go crazy. My rational is the engine is out, I may as well build it properly now and (hopefully) not have to worry about getting the engine out again.

I am deciding which way to go, bearing in mind I drive my car almost daily and I want to continue doing this.

I have been researching the 26/30 hybrid pretty thoroughly and I have been pretty impressed with the results I have seen. I like the idea of more torque at lower RPM and have no problem with the lower rev limit as this would hopefully limit dangerous oil pump wear.

What i'd really like to do is go for a ride in a built 26 and 30 to compare them. Anyone keen to take me for a ride in their built 26? Anyone done the RB30 conversion locally (on the forums)?

Any advice from people whom have built 26's or 30's would be greatly appreciated, especially anyone who has gone from a built 26 to a 30. I have only ever had my stock GTR setup , but like i said the engine is out now I may as well build it properly and then I have all the options.

Also you won't see me entering the hillclimb anytime in the next couple of months

Below is a copy of my entry in the post your engine failure thread.

This has been Heart and Wallet breaking.

GET RID OF YOUR CERAMIC TURBOS (especially if running higher boost).

Engine/Car: 1993 R32 GTR

Type of failure: Ceramic turbine failure leading to ceramic dust being blown through the engine (all cylinders have some dust), knackered rings, scratched/gouged bores and ceramic dust crushed into quench zone in cylinders 4,5 and 6. That's right, the block, pistons, rings and head are all damaged as well as one dead turbo.

Factors influencing the failure: Ceramic turbos well past their 'service'/replacement date. NO EXTRA BOOST (in my ownership at least)

State of tune of the engine: Dead stock standard engine. Highflow cat, kiakamoto 3.5inch exhaust, pipercross filter. Nothing special.

Suspension and tyres: Irrelevent.

Oil used and service interval: Mobil 1 every 5000km religiously.

General comments: An especially painful turbo/engine failure necessitating a full rebuit and new turbos, very expensive. My advice: don't run higher than 13psi on stock turbo's as this is the service limit according to the workshop manual. Also 'service' or replace at the 100,000 interval. I ran stock boost specifically to avoid this kind of failure but it still happened. Just get rid of the ceramic turbos if you can.

It should also be noted that my oil pump drive showed signs of significant wear...

[N1GTR]

Well, thats definatly stuffed!

If no one in ACT has an rb30 bottom end i wouldnt mind taking you for a blast in mine. Full forged etc rb26/30 with HKS GT-RS's. But im in Sydney

Funny you mention the -10's, they're the turbos im going for if the GT-RS's dont get me what i want

[Sinista32]

Rebuild your RB26 with forged internals and 2860-5s. It will get you 330-350awkws safely and for a long time. Excessive mods costs more $$ in the short and more issues over the longer term. However,

1. if you are looking for the fastest qtr, do heaps of events and you have endless supply of money and/or

2. like to boast about your ride.

- then GO NUTS.

Edited November 5, 2008 by Sinista32

[StinkyPoo]

Hey,

I know someone that is currently "building" a RB26/30. The thing isn't supposed to be finished until the start of next year, so expect to see it running mid next year .

[OzLeroy]

Well, thats definatly stuffed!

If no one in ACT has an rb30 bottom end i wouldnt mind taking you for a blast in mine. Full forged etc rb26/30 with HKS GT-RS's. But im in Sydney

Funny you mention the -10's, they're the turbos im going for if the GT-RS's dont get me what i want

Firstly, I may well take you up on that ride. I really want to get a good feel for the difference between the two combos so I can better judge the value for money factor.

So the -10's flow more than GT-RS's? I didn't realise that. Has anyone put twin -10's or GT-RS's onto a RB26/30?

[OzLeroy]

Rebuild your RB26 with forged internals and 2860-5s. It will get you 330-350awkws safely and for a long time. Excessive mods costs more $ in the short and more issues over the longer term. However,

1. if you are looking for the fastest qtr, do heaps of events and you have endless supply of money and/or

2. like to boast about your ride.

- then GO NUTS.

I do acknowledge the additional risk and cost factor of the RB26/30 build and I am wary of reliability. Those that own or have experience with the RB26/30, have you had any more* issues than the RB26 (other than the initial install and tuning)?

I am *aiming* to have the car on the road for at least 10.5-11 months a year (note this would be a significant improvement on my current record). I have fixed a lot of the major issues - rear subframe included. The gearbox and transfer case are about the only things left to break... (touch wood).

I also have a motorcycle to fall back on.

Cost will end up being the determining factor.

[TiTAN]

i would stop talking to Steve-o if you don't want to hear about reliability issues .

[GTRKat]

That's very poo. When my ceramic exhaust wheel shattered it was nice enough to fall into the cat and not disturb anything else.

Apparently my engines bottom end is in very good condition and has never been opened up before and there was no damage to any parts or anything. But you never can tell these things without getting a good look!

I guess it all depends on how much money you have to play around with. I looked at the RB26/30 route and when I started to add it up it seemed to get REALLY expensive. Not that I necessarily went the cheapest way either. Like you when choosing I had the same problem, besides the R35 the only GTR I have ever been in is my own.

[N1GTR]

Firstly, I may well take you up on that ride. I really want to get a good feel for the difference between the two combos so I can better judge the value for money factor.

So the -10's flow more than GT-RS's? I didn't realise that. Has anyone put twin -10's or GT-RS's onto a RB26/30?

Haha yeah my first rb30 bottom let go cause i had a shit tune. Thats not happening again!

Value for money? Buy an rb20, they just dont die

-10's are rated higher than GTRS's by quite a bit. Its quite a lot more enjoyable than the 2.6L bottom end, well IMO anyway - everyone has different opinions. Although no one that went in my car with the 3L bottom end didnt have a fun time. eg;

Yeah, the wet-road acceleration in 2nd and 3rd gear is best described as 'hilarious', at least thats the effect it had on us. lol

It's a fairly tractable engine- You can feel the torque curve really starting to swell just before 3500rpm, then it gets more serious at 3800, and goes absolutely manic from 4000... and flings the needle from there to 7000 in a blink while all four tires break traction in the wet

It should be an epic thing in the dry; a real workout for the neck muscles. If it ever stops raining for more than 30 minutes at a time, that is =P

It's going to require an ECU change to run the last 5 or so pounds of boost that the turbo can run efficiently, but I reckon that, combined with cams and a better intercooler and some silicone lower hoses should see around 550rwHp (410rwkW) without too much trouble. That would only take the injectors to ~90% duty cylcle too, which leaves plenty of safety margin.

Time for that dry-sump setup now...

Got the obligatory shot of the manifold glowing tomato-red during some constant load tuning-

I was definitely laughin in the car tonight and not from excitement. I said come back when it's dry and then I might stop trying to push my feet through the floor.

On the other hand there are some manic 2.6L's out there. At the end of the day you're taking the best approach to it, try everything before spending the dollars

Try them all, weigh up the dollars and enjoy what you end up with

[Sinista32]

I do acknowledge the additional risk and cost factor of the RB26/30 build and I am wary of reliability. Those that own or have experience with the RB26/30

Correct, I've no personal experience with the RB26/30 build. I beleive I read somewhere Scooby may have and will shed experience, if asked. There is also so much info on SAU on this config.

My experience is with the RB26 only on a standard rebuild meaning no 2.8 stroker (Nice, would have liked to do have done this at the time, didnt have the $$$$). The issues I expereinced are significantly more than you and others are aware of or may have been advised of. This is not the time or my thread.

My response to your initial post - IMO Forged pistons with the Garret 2860-5 or HKS 2530's.

I stand by my comment on cost and reliability.

Cheers

S!N

PS. My Skyline has not run since the initial install.

Edited November 6, 2008 by Sinista32

[noone]

mine made 429 hp or 320 ish kW with a standard unbuilt bottom end cams an 2530's was boosting hard nice an early too

expired on a race track though an the rebuild time an money is harsh

Have a real good look at what you wanna do with the car n1 motors are really a fairly cheap option with factory reliability

am wondering if that may have been a better option for me may not be for you though I dunno

best a luck

[Swiper the Fox]

Ill take you for a run in my 2.6 ... you will never want a forklift engine (RB30) again...lol.

there is a lot more mucking around getting a 30 fitted let alone getting it built "properly"

Edited November 6, 2008 by DiRTgarage

[OzLeroy]

Correct, I've no personal experience with the RB26/30 build. I beleive I read somewhere Scooby may have and will shed experience, if asked. There is also so much info on SAU on this config.

My experience is with the RB26 only on a standard rebuild meaning no 2.8 stroker (Nice, would have liked to do have done this at the time, didnt have the $$). The issues I expereinced are significantly more than you and others are aware of or may have been advised of. This is not the time or my thread.

My response to your initial post - IMO Forged pistons with the Garret 2860-5 or HKS 2530's.

I stand by my comment on cost and reliability.

Cheers

S!N

PS. My Skyline has not run since the initial install.

Point taken. I am not rolling in $$$, not by any means. My GTR is my only car and I need it on the road most of the time. Also I have to keep in mind that the gearbox will not enjoy anything past 300-320 kw at the wheels in any case and I certainly won't have the money to replace the gear box anytime soon...

The extra expense, time and reliability question marks not to mention the practical limits to power (such as the gearbox) are making me really question the value of the RB26/30 over the forged internal RB26 for my case anyway.

Thanks Sin.

[OzLeroy]

Ill take you for a run in my 2.6 ... you will never want a forklift engine (RB30) again...lol.

there is a lot more mucking around getting a 30 fitted let alone getting it built "properly"

Indeed, with a power curve like yours who needs an RB30 or a V8 for that matter...

Agreed, there are certainly more issues with getting the damn lump back under the bonnet (especially for a an R32) and I think for my initial and somewhat humble goals even a forged bottom end in the 26 is overkill but the engine is out so I may as well. The 26 certainly seems the safer, cheaper option.

If I get ambitious later on I can always call on you to do some crazy headwork .

[Swiper the Fox]

Point taken. I am not rolling in $$$, not by any means. My GTR is my only car and I need it on the road most of the time. Also I have to keep in mind that the gearbox will not enjoy anything past 300-320 kw at the wheels in any case and I certainly won't have the money to replace the gear box anytime soon...

The extra expense, time and reliability question marks not to mention the practical limits to power (such as the gearbox) are making me really question the value of the RB26/30 over the forged internal RB26 for my case anyway.

Thanks Sin.

The nissan stuff is quite good...albeit the cast pistons. The engine i built for Stacey when she was racing the car was all Nissan except pistons and camshafts...made almost 470AWKW and was thrashed for 3 seasons of racing and countless dyno comps.

Its how they are bolted together thats more important than a wanky list of expensive parts.

[OzLeroy]

The nissan stuff is quite good...albeit the cast pistons. The engine i built for Stacey when she was racing the car was all Nissan except pistons and camshafts...made almost 470AWKW and was thrashed for 3 seasons of racing and countless dyno comps.

Its how they are bolted together thats more important than a wanky list of expensive parts.

Yeah, except for the ceramic turbos (i'm still a bit grumpy about that)... The irony is that I was settled, all I ever wanted was 270AWKW on the standard engine, until it let go. Now i figure I may as well setup a good base for future mods and have the safety factor to really thrash it when I want to.

Well once its built I certainly don't want to be taking the engine out again...anytime soon at least...

[Swiper the Fox]

Yeah, except for the ceramic turbos (i'm still a bit grumpy about that)... The irony is that I was settled, all I ever wanted was 270AWKW on the standard engine, until it let go. Now i figure I may as well setup a good base for future mods and have the safety factor to really thrash it when I want to.

Well once its built I certainly don't want to be taking the engine out again...anytime soon at least...

The point i was trying to make is you seem to be a little light in the folding stuff...right?

You dont need to spend mega bucks to build an engine that will perform and be durable.

Stacey's engine cost just under 4K to build and if we ran stock cams would have been 3K....ive seen engines built for over 5 times that amount ($20,000+) and have been a total waste of money.

Edited November 6, 2008 by DiRTgarage

[Gus-]

my vote -

build it back up to normal with some forgies and cams...and then put some nicer bolt on's on. the only thing a rebuilt engine will give you is reliability - not power. the power comes from the bolt ons.

the engine rebuilt should be able to handle a bit. as paul said...build it up properly - but dont spend rediculous amounts of money on combo's etc...jsut more hassle than its worth...especially when you can get what you want from the 2.6

from there you wana do research on what combo of bolt ons......turbos, ecu, injectors, etc etc etc.

i would recommend you take a look at this thread RB26 dyno results. ....take a look at the third post - if you were to add on some turbos, a front mount, injectors...somple things...you should safely hit 300 +

as paul said...you dont need to spend massive money...jsut do it simple and you should be fine...dont mess around with un - nessacary things.

hope that made sense...and feel free to ignore me

[OzLeroy]

I have decided on the back of plenty of experienced advice and analysis (cost, value for money, risk) that rebuilding the 26 is the way to go at the moment.

Thank you all for your input.

I'll always have the 30 bottom end sitting there for when my folks 33 GTS-t dies...

Now i just have to decide on things like sump baffles, the extent of oil control measures, do i need arp main or head bolts? and many little extras.

[Swiper the Fox]

I have decided on the back of plenty of experienced advice and analysis (cost, value for money, risk) that rebuilding the 26 is the way to go at the moment.

Thank you all for your input.

I'll always have the 30 bottom end sitting there for when my folks 33 GTS-t dies...

Now i just have to decide on things like sump baffles, the extent of oil control measures, do i need arp main or head bolts? and many little extras.

Here's what i used on Stacey's engine...Tomei 1.2mm head gasket, ARP rod bolts, Nissan main and head bolts, Tomei oil restrictor, Nissan N1 oil pump, Nissan N1 water pump, Tomei sump baffle kit, Arias 86mm forged pistons and Tomei 260 deg 9.15mm lift camshafts.

When racing we used to put an extra litre of oil in it for insurance. The cams, baffle kit and N1 water pump are not entirely essential but are recommended.

Edited November 7, 2008 by DiRTgarage