Fakes & Counterfeits Documentary On Abc Tv

[GTR-N1]

At our Anglican church, the ministers had helped the congregations to realise that even making copies of commercial disks for others outside of your own personal useage is just plain wrong! I admit that I used to push the envelope and try to rationalise it away. But it doesn't get away from the fact that it is wrong!

Now on the flip side, for companies to use something that is to all common knowledge 'generic' and try to 'Trade Mark' it is also wrong. For instance, an American company Trade Marking Ugg Boots or even Australia's National Anthem. The companies that try to do this are just as guilty; not of theft, but of 'Greed'!

Tez 'resting his case'

[floody]

Can I clarify this though, are we saying lookalike = counterfeit though, or copy badged as the real thing = counterfeit?

Well I had no idea there was such a significant problem in Australia, I've never actually seen a true counterfeit item, i.e. one purporting to be equivalent to or the same as the original.

Cheap copies or similar, yes, all the plenums, catch cans and such. But I gather thats not what you're aiming at.

Of course I agree 100% that making an inferior product that is portrayed as equivalent or identical to the bespoke one is entirely wrong.

Something I find intriguing is that plenty of the JDM companies surely had to have got their start in a very similar way to the counterfeiters, through copying bespoke USA and European parts.

Heck, Nissan got itself off the ground post world war II building licensed Austins, and even the famous L-series motors have more than a nod to Mercedes-Benz designs.

I suppose the innovation you keep referring to is the significant difference, there being a drive to improve upon the copy and consistently refine it which seems missing from the counterfeiters.

[TheTunersGroup]

Well I had no idea there was such a significant problem in Australia, I've never actually seen a true counterfeit item, i.e. one purporting to be equivalent to or the same as the original ... Of course I agree 100% that making an inferior product that is portrayed as equivalent or identical to the bespoke one is entirely wrong.

You may have seen a counterfeit product in Australia, but not realised that it was a counterfeit. Some of the counterfeits these days are very convincing.

Some companies which manufacture knock offs and counterfeits have no qualms at all about also copying the logos of the original manufacturers and simply putting a sticker of a genuine manufacturers logo on a counterfeit or knock off product.

Here is a post from another forum I am on ... this post is from an Australian forum, and the person who posted this has advised that he was sold this item by an Australian company ...

"Another example

I was a recent victim of the topic in discussion

-Sard Fuel pressure regulator

I bought off what I thought was a reputable company.

I queried the person. They then changed their website to confirm it was only a replica. I returned straight away. Thank god i asked questions or else Id have a replica in my car on a critical component (fueling) when I would have thought it was a genuine sard.

I now have the genuine and the difference is noticeable ! (just on comparing the paint and obvious looks and appearance of the products build quality. Here I never intended on buying a replica except I became the victim of being deceived by a cheap copy with a SARD sticker on it

and I also have another example

"BOSCH" branded HID kits.

Fact: Bosch don't make HID kits"

- Adam

[TheTunersGroup]

Can I clarify this though, are we saying lookalike = counterfeit though, or copy badged as the real thing = counterfeit?

At the end of the day, what really matters is if a product is manufactured by the original manufacturer who originally invented and developed it or not.

IMHO trying to classify unauthorised products into categories like "counterfeit", "knock off", "replica" etc is a waste of time.

The question should simply be "Is this product manufactured by the company who originally invented and designed it ?"

Something I find intriguing is that plenty of the JDM companies surely had to have got their start in a very similar way to the counterfeiters, through copying bespoke USA and European parts.

Heck, Nissan got itself off the ground post world war II building licensed Austins

There's a huge difference between a Japanese company like Nissan building licensed Austins, compared to counterfeiters and manufacturers of fakes, counterfeits and knock offs.

In the case of Nissan, they were hired by Austin, with Austin's approval to manufacture those Japanese made Austins. ie, it was done with Austin's full knowledge and permission.

HOW MANY OF THE JDM MANUFACTURERS GOT STARTED

Many of the Japanese based aftermarket manufacturers got their start by doing authorised & licensed manufacturing work for European and American companies after World War II as they tried to rebuild Japan, but the key point there is that the parts that the big JDM aftermarket manufacturers that we know today were making for those European and American companies were authorised, legal and done under proper licenses.

There is a great video here about HKS's history ...

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=x2zQychf1Go

Trust was founded by an HKS employee who decided to go out on his own in 1977.

A company which I know quite a bit about the history of is Works Bell, who we are the Australian distributors for.

Part of how Works Bell got their start was doing licensed and authorised fabrication and machining work for Momo and Nardi.

As it says on our Works Bell page at ...

http://www.tunersgroup.com/Products/Works_Bell.html ...

----------------

"Works Bell was founded in 1950 in Tokyo as "Miyashita Manufacturing Co. Ltd", and has a 58 year history with a reputation for the finest engineering and innovation of any aftermarket manufacturer in the world.

In 2001 Works Bell invented the ball lock quick release. Works Bell holds numerous patents including the patent for ball lock quick release systems. Works Bell quick releases are the original, genuine, real deal products.

As far back as 1969, Miyashita Manufacturing were doing authorised and licensed fabrication work for both Momo and Nardi.

In 1983 Works Bell Co. Ltd. was founded. Since 1983 Works Bell has made an incredible number of innovations - such as wheel spacer manufacturing in 1993, winning the RV Grand Prix in Tokyo in 1996.

Works Bell invented and holds a huge portfolio of patents for automotive innovations, including the patents for ...

- harness bosses for car use,

- the convertible long handle boss,

- the 24 hole boss spacer,

- the crushable boss,

- air passage through headlight housing,

- jumper parts to silence airbags warnings,

- the full harness seat belt,

- the steering wheel boss anti-theft cap,

- the seat position sensor,

- auxillary parts for removing the steering wheel,

- the shift switch, and

- the steering wheel contact coupler.

Works Bell are members of SEMA (Specialty Equipment Manufacturers Association), ASEA (Japanese Autosports & Special Equipment Association), NAPAC (Nippon Auto Parts Aftermarket Committee) and AAAL (Automotive Aftermarket Action League)."

----------------

I suppose the innovation you keep referring to is the significant difference, there being a drive to improve upon the copy and consistently refine it which seems missing from the counterfeiters.

Original JDM manufacturers like Works Bell, HKS and co are not "improving upon a copy" - they invent new products from scratch, and then develop and refine those original products which they have invented.

The original JDM manufacturers literally sit down with a blank piece of paper, and come up with new ideas and design brand new products that have never been seen before.

That is what I mean by innovation - inventing new products from scratch, and then refining, testing and improving those products.

That process is literally starting with a blank piece of paper, and coming up with completely new ideas. Take a look at the list of products above that Works Bell invented and patented - that's true innovation. It's possible that almost everyone has at least one part on their car that was invented by Works Bell.

Even companies like Mazda did work for companies overseas ...

Have you heard of the Mazda Roadpacer (shown above) ?

As it says at ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Roadpacer ...

The Mazda Roadpacer was a full-size sedan sold by Mazda Motor Corp. of Japan between 1975 and 1977. It was based on the Australian Holden Premier. Premiers were shipped to Japan without engines, and Mazda fitted a 1.3 L 13B Wankel engine into the bay. Although the engine produced 135 hp (100 kW) and 101 ft·lbf (138 Nm) of torque, the Roadpacer weighed 3,500 lb (1,575 kg).

While the 13B produced more power than the 6 cylinder engine fitted to the car as a Holden, the lack of torque meant performance was restrained with a 103 mph (166 km/h) top speed, poor acceleration and terrible fuel consumption. Contemporary reports suggest 9 mpg (26 L per 100 km).

While the Holden Premier itself was well endowed with items, Mazda decided to add many more, including some people had likely never heard of. Gadgets of note include a central locking system that activated when the car hit 10 km/h (6 mph), a chime system that activated at 90 km/h (56 mph), a dictation system and a stereo able to be controlled from both front and back seats.

The price was also not a bargain at 3.8 million yen (US$10,000) in 1975. This was about twice the price of a contemporary Mazda Cosmo. Originally intended as transport for high-ranking government officials, the car was sold in the wake of the first fuel crisis and was not a commercial success. Production ceased in 1977 with only 840 units sold.

The Roadpacer has the sole distinction of a General Motors product being fitted for production with a rotary engine.

Most were sold to government departments and were later crushed, meaning Roadpacers are rare nowadays; their counterpart model, the Holden Premier is considered a classic car in Australia; but the Roadpacer remains largely unheard of, or is believed to be a rumour.

AN EXAMPLE OF THE RIGHT WAY TO DEVELOP NEW PRODUCTS

We are currently working on a new product.

We did a patent search to see if it had already been invented by someone else.

Our patent research found a Japanese company that had patented a mechanism which does exactly what we need.

Here is where the difference between what counterfeiters and knock off manufacturers do compared to what honourable and legitimate businesses do, comes into play ...

A counterfeiter or knock off manufacturer might simply buy one of the original ones, pull it to pieces and copy it then sell it as their own product.

The way that honourable and legitimate businesses like ours operate is very different ...

We contacted the Japanese company who invented and hold the patent on part of the product we want to develop, and are negotiating with them to legally license their patent, which will then be developed for use in a slightly different application.

But the key point is that our new product will be completely authorised by the Japanese company that invented and owns the patent on that technology, and we can leverage their expertise and experience in adapting their technology to a new use.

And most importantly of all, the license fees which we will pay to that Japanese company for permission to use their patented technology will provide them with revenue which they can use for research and development of new products - so that's a perfect example of how properly licensing patented technology helps promote innovation, and helps the innovative manufacturers survive and prosper, instead of counterfeiting stealing the original manufacturer's designs and leading to the death of innovation.

- Adam

[2BNVS]

"Can I clarify this though, are we saying lookalike = counterfeit though, or copy badged as the real thing = counterfeit"

one question i was gonna ask, but how many items look alike, or are all based of each other= shitloads thats just how it is, look at cars them selves some are almost the same just a few little things different. this is somehting u cannot stop as there is always a few slight differences which doesnt make it an EXACT COPY, as even in my business there are things that are similar while being cheaper just how it is.

a copy badged as the real thing deserves to be penalised no doubt

[TheTunersGroup]

"Can I clarify this though, are we saying lookalike = counterfeit though, or copy badged as the real thing = counterfeit"

one question i was gonna ask, but how many items look alike, or are all based of each other= shitloads

In many cases, you find that it's not that they "are all based of each other" ... if you look for it you will often find that before copies and counterfeits of a particular product hit the market, there was one original product which was manufactured by the company that developed and invented it ... and that's the one I always buy.

That's how you make sure your money goes back to producing new products and ensures that innovation continues and that new products keep being developed.

I have even heard stories of counterfeits of knock offs or counterfeits of counterfeits, where a counterfeit manufacturer doesn't even buy an original product to steal it's design, instead they buy a knock off or counterfeit and copy the knock off or counterfeit.

I've heard stories of cases where a counterfeit manufacturer has made a measuring mistake while copying the original, and then you see more counterfeits from other counterfeit manufacturers with the same mistake repeated - ridiculous.

look at cars them selves some are almost the same just a few little things different

The chinese are taking knock offs and counterfeits to a whole new level ...

On the left is a CMEC City Smart, on the right is a Daimler Chrysler Smart Car ...

The car on the left is a Chinese made Shuanghuan Auto CEO. On the right is a BMW X5

On the the left is SMA Shanghai Maple, on the right is an Audi S4

On the left is a Geely Merie, on the right is a Mercedes-Benz C-Class

On the left is a Hongqi HQD, on the right is a Rolls-Royce Phantom.

And if you want a BMW, which badge do you want on your car ?

All photos are from this article ...

http://www.automotoportal.com/article/chin...tern-automakers

And if you think that all Chinese cars are manufactured to meet western safety standards, you might want to take a look at this video of a Chinese built Chery failing a crash test ...

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/Vi...er-t246057.html

- Adam

[2BNVS]

i agree that they are too similar but hey who cares as u mentioned its a cheap copy that fails all safety, which genuine decent buyers will still go for the original car. not all people can afford a bmw x5 and cant as u mentioned simply just save for one, so they opt for a cheap shitter, at the end of the day its someone who wants something that looks similar but fraction the cost we are talking china here where 80k for an x5 is out of the question

what about all those kit cars, like the mr2's converted to like a ferrari testarossa, gt40 kit cars etc etc, at the end of theday its a fake and they cant exactly be showing it off/proud of it but they just want that look

after reading about the lawsuits between the companies i agree, and thats a fair call with those cars which i never agreed with either.

Edited November 23, 2008 by 2BNVS

[Amir]

...As I was completing a tour of Ephesus (the place where Paul the apostle addressed the Ephesians), I had to walk through a gallery of tourist shops. These in turn were plastered with glitzy jewellery fronts with large signs saying...

"GENUINE FAKE WATCHES"!

I wondered if these business people had ancestors that were in the same sort of trade 2000 yrs before?

...And then (tongue in cheek) I asked the tour guide if those watch-vendors would give out a Certificate of Authenticity; to which she remarked glibly, "Oh they're fakes as well"!

interesting place ephesus. When i was there, their was 1000's of christian pilgrims visiting. Many praying at the so called 'last house of mary'.

[GTR-N1]

interesting place ephesus. When i was there, their was 1000's of christian pilgrims visiting. Many praying at the so called 'last house of mary'.

Yes, alas, commercialism to suck in a few Catholics is alive and well. Even as a Christian, I just waited outside.

Wasn't interested in fake chapels, fake watches or the ones that fellow tourists bought.

In f*c*, I could take a f*rk to those f**kin f*kes and not bat an eyelid.

Even in Ephesus, some of the restoration work was fake. How? I pointed out to one of the workmen that one of the pieces of a column was upside-down.

He scratched his head as I pointed out that the Latin inscription of one piece was upside-down!!! WTF!

[scathing]

He scratched his head as I pointed out that the Latin inscription of one piece was upside-down!!! WTF!

Was he like, "Mate its all Greek to me!" in response?

[GTR-N1]

Hahaha, in his own The land of goat sphincter rings way, yeh!

[floody]

I'll join your fight in fact...

http://www.vivagarage.com.au/nissan/nissan..._aeroparts.html

Lookee here, R31House/Uras kit copies, even knocked off the images from R31house. Slack.

[DAS KAMU]

lol-zilla

[Marco-R34GTT]

Hahaha, in his own The land of goat sphincter rings way, yeh!

The The land of goat sphincter rings bloke in the Greek part of The land of goat sphincter rings Anatolia telling the Australian in Anatolia that the Latin Church in the Greek part of The land of goat sphincter rings Anatolia had Latin writing, which was upside down and happened to be all Greek to the The land of goat sphincter rings fellow in the Greek part of The land of goat sphincter rings Anatolia that was Greek but is now The land of goat sphincter rings, which is the now the homeland of the goat lovers which used to be the centre of the Greek Byzantine Empire but is now the heartland of the sphincter of the universe..

*breathes*

[GTR-N1]

The The land of goat sphincter rings bloke in the Greek part of The land of goat sphincter rings Anatolia telling the Australian in Anatolia that the Latin Church in the Greek part of The land of goat sphincter rings Anatolia had Latin writing, which was upside down and happened to be all Greek to the The land of goat sphincter rings fellow in the Greek part of The land of goat sphincter rings Anatolia that was Greek but is now The land of goat sphincter rings, which is the now the homeland of the goat lovers which used to be the centre of the Greek Byzantine Empire but is now the heartland of the sphincter of the universe..

*breathes*

HAHA! Thanks for complicating...

To makes things clearer...

It was the Australian with Chinese blood but trained in Latin for three years back in Australia who was temporarily displaced in The land of goat sphincter rings Anatolia, that recognised the worthlessness of Chinese fake watches in the The land of goat sphincter rings sector; and pointed out the 'Greek' puzzle to The land of goat sphincter rings worker of the upsidedown Latin in the Greek sector of The land of goat sphincter rings Anatolia long after the Greek Byzantine Empire gave way to Ephesus being the capital of the Roman Province of the Aegean, and the Roman Empire gave way to the Visigoths in 410AD and then the goat lovers..

*coughs*

[Amir]

The conclusion I reached from that documentary was that the conterfeit trade exists b/c certain brands are ripping the consumer off.

So 'company X' makes handbags worth 1000pnds. This company has them made in China for very cheap. The counterfeit trade then copy the design of the handbag and sell it to the consumer at the cost it actually should be sold at. Company X still does not complain, b/c it is still making a motsa from its severly over-inflated markup. Consumers continue buying the brand named product b/c its part of human nature to 'show-off'.

So my conclusion is that everyone should buy counterfeit products as long as it is safe. Competition brings down prices, so these handbags, condoms, addidas products, medicines, eggs etc., can become affordable. If the genuine item (which is still made in China) is affordable then there is no need for 'copies'.

[turbo_brian]

1 big problem, the manufacturers turn around and R&D the product, set the guidelines up, create the proto-types, and set forward a process to create these items.

Then, for cost saving, they send all the designs to China, Taiwan to get the cheap labour to create the actual product.

This is wonderful, because the Chinese create the genuine article, then they create a few more on the side and sell these as something very slightly different, badge it as a no-name, a copy, and sell it for a fraction of the price.

What the counterfiet people do is sell it with just enough mark-up that they are covering the costs of the materials, and wages plus a fraction of profit. (they dont need to cover the costs of manufacturing equipment, because the companies with the genuine article did that).

Sucks, people like APEXI, and other places that have placed massive R&D into products go bust because these other people copy their shit and push it out at 1/4 the price.

B.

[2BNVS]

just got a few pairs of socks for 2 bucks/pair, same logo as adidas, now why would i pay 15 bucks for adidas ones when theres ones exactly the same for almost nothing. what R&D for that there fkn socks, which get made in the counterfitting country anyway by some f**k all paid workers. situations like that i really dont care on buying copies, teach addidas to rip consumers off while they slave other people to make it

[scathing]

So 'company X' makes handbags worth 1000pnds. This company has them made in China for very cheap. The counterfeit trade then copy the design of the handbag and sell it to the consumer at the cost it actually should be sold at.

"Should" is arguable. The counterfeiters don't have to pay a designer to come up with an original idea, and that's what costs money. If the clothing is well made, someone had to come up with how it's made and what materials are used to provide that quality. The counterfeiters also don't have to pay for all that marketing dross to "position the brand" where it is. These are all costs that add up for the OEM, but not something a counterfeiter needs to worry about while still benefiting from the expenditure.

I've also noticed that counterfeit goods tend to be low quality. Counterfeit stuff tends to fall apart, since it's all the show but without any of that aforementioned stitching / materials choice.

Lets face it, it doesn't cost Nissan 8 million yen in materials and manufacturing labour to make a GT-R. But if they hadn't spent money on wind tunnel research, test mules, shipping teams to Germany to go driving around a specific tollway in the mountains, etc the GT-R wouldn't be as good as it is.

Imagine if someone bought a GT-R, pulled it apart and measured everything to find out how it was made, and then made practically the same car but with shitter parts and sold it for half the price. They'd use aluminium instead of carbon, and steel instead of aluminium. They'd put it on Nankangs instead of Bridgestones. The multi-function display would be coded by Wipro or Satam instead of Polyphony. The aero might generate massive turbulence at speed because it wasn't copied just right.

It'd still look and sound like an R35, and for people who don't care about what makes the GT-R so good but only care bout being seen in one then they'd all flock to it. To people who'll only cruise George St / Chapel St in it, it's as good as Nissan's so why bother buying it. Since that style-over-substance attitude is quite prevalent these days, it might bury the genuine vehicle because it devalues the reputation of the car as well as letting wankers who might have bought one anyway to show off to get a knock-off.

However, in the interest of parity I will include this article on why piracy in the fashion industry is a good thing which I thought was quite interesting. The gist is that it basically spurs innovation. However, it's not entirely applicable to the car industry since the business model for developing cars is to have a several year model cycle, where as fashion seasons are annual and so pricing is engineered to recoup costs within a relatively short period.

[turbo_brian]

just got a few pairs of socks for 2 bucks/pair, same logo as adidas, now why would i pay 15 bucks for adidas ones when theres ones exactly the same for almost nothing. what R&D for that there fkn socks, which get made in the counterfitting country anyway by some f**k all paid workers. situations like that i really dont care on buying copies, teach addidas to rip consumers off while they slave other people to make it

R&D in socks:

Fabric type, dye type, what stitch is strong, yet gives a nice stretching feeling, which one breathes so that you dont end up with sweating feat, shall I go on???

There is R&D in everything from bottled water to the worlds most expensive cars. Yes, Addidas are over priced, but this is a different issue, the issue of over-capitalising on the product.

2 issues here, counterfiet product, which is stolen from the original maker, sold at a lesser price because A) the people haven't invested in the different ways in making it, and B) the people selling it are happy to profit $1, where as the makers want to get their developement money back faster, and decide $10 profit is better.

This is the same as Hybrid intercoolers, that are a copy of other brands, they have copied the design of the cooler from someone who has researched the benifits of certain materials, certain fin angling, structure, gaps between the fins, the effects of the design in 10, 20, 30, 60, 100km/h winds, strength and regidity against stone chips, placement of inbound and oubound air flow, etc. Someone has spend hundreds of thousands in the research and benifits, and someone else has come along, bought 1, and copied it.

B.