Gt35r Vs Garrett T04z - Discussion (just Post In This Thread To Create A Database)

[Rezlo]

Exactly! People seem to think the T04Z is a new fancy pants thing, HKS have done a GREAT job with them and Garrett dealers have done well off the back of it. Before the "HKS T04Z" there were people around running the "Ball Bearing T67" but now suddenly all the Garrett guys call them "T04Z" and drill nice holes in the compressor cover to try and make them a bit more like the HKS T67. I mean T04R. I mean T04Z. Its a dinosaur turbo with not so dinosaur bearings, the GT3582R is a proper GT-series turbo... it has the superior aerodynamics, the same core technology, and the smaller wheels. There is no way the T04Z is going to match its response in an all things being equal situation.

Suppose its 100% personal opinion,, to me the 35r was just rubbish for performance, it was like driving old mother Hubbard around.. and thats in a car 200kg's lighter than a skyline...

When I switched to a T04z I had 200-300rpm slower spool up and a whole shit load more top end. The car feels smoother and the response over 5000rpm is lighting fast (around here we don't race at 3500rpm ) I also notice the lag between gears if far less on the T04z

And i seriously don't know how you guys find the T04z harder to handle around a track, at 1.3bar i ran 1.5 seconds faster around a 1.20 track than i did with my anemic GT35 at 1.5bar.. and thats a RWD S14 no AWD or added weight.

But again, its all personal opinion, some people like turbo cars for the rush of power, some like them as every day taxi's, its just funny that the people with the biggest opinions are paper racing off other peoples results not actual personal usage.

[Tomek]

Hey Michael..

Would you be able to go over the details of your car..

Engine build, supporting mods & complete turbo set-up

Curious.. Id like to compare my build to yours (see if I havn't taken any short-cuts along the way) also curious on your 8,500 redline.. Making power all the way to the cut?

PM me if you like, but I dare say some parties on here would be itching to know also

Cheers

Tomek

[tommis85]

ust seams like fair bit of money for not much gain. a 3076 is not going to flow much more than the stockers, wouldn't it be cheaper to put some n1's on it? surely a 3082 would be a minimum for a single don't you think? after driving my own setup, i wouldn't go smaller than a 3582, because it has the same response as the stock turbos and potential for 350-400 rwkw.

P.S this is just my opinion, feel free to disagree.

Drifter, well that's what I've been debating for the last couple months. I started off with doing this sort of research for a set of twins ranging from smaller units to the larger N1 style turbos that you mentioned. Right now my tuner is investigating the internally gated GT35 units but originally he too recommended a 0.7 front / 0.7 rear T04z.

There are so many mixed opinions (but good ones) on here! Yes, the GT30 has similar performance to a set of large twins plus a bit extra which sounds good. The GT35 went pretty darn well on my mates R33 GTST although a bit laggy for my liking. I'm hoping that with a better choice of rear A/R and the extra RPM's that the RB26 has to offer, the GT35 should run better on my car.

Maybe we should start a enormous pole on here where people vote on if they find the GT35 "boring" and then possibly list their engine spec's as well - you may be able to find some sort of correlation from that

[tommis85]

Suppose its 100% personal opinion,, to me the 35r was just rubbish for performance, it was like driving old mother Hubbard around.. and thats in a car 200kg's lighter than a skyline...

Rezlo, I'm tossing up between a GT30 and GT35 for my stock RB26....maybe you ran a too large a rear-housing A/R which made it feel like crap? Did you run a 1.06 housing by any chance? IMO I'll probably start off with something no more than .82 if I went for a GT35.

Were you running the 35 in your RB25det? If so then I understand why you found it boring because on my mates car it comes on insanely late! I don't think he used it for anything other than drag because that car would have gone so bad around a circuit. But then, it did crank out 418hp........but what good is that when it comes on with only 1500rpm to go till redline

Edited January 13, 2009 by tommis85

[Lithium]

When I switched to a T04z I had 200-300rpm slower spool up and a whole shit load more top end. The car feels smoother and the response over 5000rpm is lighting fast (around here we don't race at 3500rpm ) I also notice the lag between gears if far less on the T04z

And i seriously don't know how you guys find the T04z harder to handle around a track, at 1.3bar i ran 1.5 seconds faster around a 1.20 track than i did with my anemic GT35 at 1.5bar.. and thats a RWD S14 no AWD or added weight.

But again, its all personal opinion, some people like turbo cars for the rush of power, some like them as every day taxi's, its just funny that the people with the biggest opinions are paper racing off other peoples results not actual personal usage.

As I have said before, from you describe about your experience with the GT35R makes me think that you probably had another problem with your setup or something. Me saying a T04Z is a dirty old T-series turbo is not an opinion, its a fact. HKS themselves have acknowledged that by calling it a "T04..." instead of a "GT..". No amount of you trying to cut down to your size people you know nothing about is going to change that.

To keep you happy, lets pretend I have no idea what a car with a GT35R or a T04Z drives like because and consider what the point of the thread is in the first place - the guy is looking for 400kw for his ceiling power figure and the best possible power delivery... the T04Z is a bigger turbo and you yourself said its a few hundred rpm higher threshold and the GT35R is known to be able to crack 400kw fine - wouldn't it make sense that the turbo which builds boost faster on the way to making the same power would provide the best power band?

[tommis85]

Can I just throw in a quick question related to the GT35 and T04's? I've been trying to get onto people with regards to the legality of external wastegates. Is it just the screamer pipe that's illegal (which I'm pretty sure it is lol) and, so long as your external gate is plumbed in is it legal? Are you safe as long as you plumb in it like with BOV's?

[wrxkilla]

yes well. ask a few of the people who have a t04z on an xr6 turbo the differance is marginal at worst. just 100kw atw differance.

anyway........ do you want smooth power delivery, or do you want it to be abit more fun with more power that doesnt fall over at 8k.

I want progressive power delivery with a good range of power making the car actually faster on the road. not a power band that comes in like a brick wall and fries the tires!

I had a 400kw GTR with a HKS T04R kit that done that, and the 35R is a much faster car.

[leg46y]

good point wrxkilla,

youd want a car that actually is faster rather than "feel" faster to drive.

because of the 'all at once hit' the T04Z might be more "fun" to drive but i can think of other ways to

fry tyres if i like, just not whilst trying to get from A to B quiker

Edited January 14, 2009 by leg46y

[SimonR32]

ok lets look at overall average power to see whats quicker from a to b

the gt35 has approx 15hp more between 3200 and 4200

while the t04z has approx 50hp more between 4500 to 8000

i dont know about you but if ur punting a rb26 you will spend 90% of your time on full throttle above 4500rpm

T04Z wins

[tommis85]

With my stock motor I'm inclined to shift up between 7000-7500rpm anyway which, according to the graph is where the GT35 may drop off. I basically don't drive the car in the red.

Michael, does your car feel like this? Does it drop off like that?

Cerbera, I guess one could argue that it may be harder to get from A to B with a thump of T04z boost like that? From descriptions on here it sounds like the T04z could be a bit painful in the wet?

Could someone with an external gate plz give me a quick yes/no for my previous post:

Can I just throw in a quick question related to the GT35 and T04's? I've been trying to get onto people with regards to the legality of external wastegates. Is it just the screamer pipe that's illegal (which I'm pretty sure it is lol) and, so long as your external gate is plumbed in is it legal? Are you safe as long as you plumb in it like with BOV's?

[Lithium]

ok lets look at overall average power to see whats quicker from a to b

the gt35 has approx 15hp more between 3200 and 4200

while the t04z has approx 50hp more between 4500 to 8000

i dont know about you but if ur punting a rb26 you will spend 90% of your time on full throttle above 4500rpm

I agree fully if you believe those dyno plots. I personally don't buy it, its comparing two cars with different setups from different dyno types with the GT35 dyno run "handicapped" with a calculated transmission loss because of an assumption on dyno reading differences and the car with the T04Z on it has bigger cams etc etc. It would be very interesting to see that same car with a GT3582R on it on that same dyno, I would put at least a couple of marmite sandwiches on the fact that the GT3582R would look a lot better than it does otherwise.

I do however agree with your comments on the useable power band, once you are up and cooking it doesn't matter - its a case I have argued with SAUers about RB25 upgrades and the nana preferences often exhibited on here. Remember the GT35R isn't my personal preference for a GTR, I just believe out of the two options it best suits this persons requirements. I'd go a GT4088R if I was getting a GTR...

[tommis85]

I agree too, I think that this graph has been put together in a fashion that biases it towards the T04z....I too am of the opinion that a perfectly setup GT35 motor would look equally impressive to that of the T04z. It's also unfair to plot the T04z on the same graph as the GT35 as the T04z is rated for a much higher HP figure - I mean *&^%, offcourse it's going to climb away from the GT35 at some stage as it's rated so much higher!

I don't think that graph is that good of an example - it's very simplified and should only be used to show how the two different turbo sizes spool up under 6000rpm.

Would I also be correct to assume that with a large T04z you'd be changing back more than 1 gear when she bogs down at corners to get it back up past 4000rpm whereas with the GT35 you may not have to as it will pick up earlier? You'd have to keep the T04z in *thump* range lol. The GT35 would have a much broader powerband than the T04z and hence you wouldn't have to anally try to keep it over a certain rev range.

[DRIFTER]

Can I just throw in a quick question related to the GT35 and T04's? I've been trying to get onto people with regards to the legality of external wastegates. Is it just the screamer pipe that's illegal (which I'm pretty sure it is lol) and, so long as your external gate is plumbed in is it legal? Are you safe as long as you plumb in it like with BOV's?

you are right, its only when venting to atmosphere that the external gate is illegal.

[tommis85]

Thanks Drifter, I guess I could risk it Oink oink oink

[T04GTR]

Suppose its 100% personal opinion,, to me the 35r was just rubbish for performance, it was like driving old mother Hubbard around.. and thats in a car 200kg's lighter than a skyline...

When I switched to a T04z I had 200-300rpm slower spool up and a whole shit load more top end. The car feels smoother and the response over 5000rpm is lighting fast (around here we don't race at 3500rpm ) I also notice the lag between gears if far less on the T04z

And i seriously don't know how you guys find the T04z harder to handle around a track, at 1.3bar i ran 1.5 seconds faster around a 1.20 track than i did with my anemic GT35 at 1.5bar.. and thats a RWD S14 no AWD or added weight.

But again, its all personal opinion, some people like turbo cars for the rush of power, some like them as every day taxi's, its just funny that the people with the biggest opinions are paper racing off other peoples results not actual personal usage.

exactly my thoughts AMEN. missuss car has gt35 mine has t04z. and how you described it is spot on. it was the boring surge of power and the lag between gears that shitted me with the 35. (345kw vs 376kw) but the t04z just felt so much stronger.

each to there own.

[T04GTR]

As I have said before, from you describe about your experience with the GT35R makes me think that you probably had another problem with your setup or something. Me saying a T04Z is a dirty old T-series turbo is not an opinion, its a fact. HKS themselves have acknowledged that by calling it a "T04..." instead of a "GT..". No amount of you trying to cut down to your size people you know nothing about is going to change that.

To keep you happy, lets pretend I have no idea what a car with a GT35R or a T04Z drives like because and consider what the point of the thread is in the first place - the guy is looking for 400kw for his ceiling power figure and the best possible power delivery... the T04Z is a bigger turbo and you yourself said its a few hundred rpm higher threshold and the GT35R is known to be able to crack 400kw fine - wouldn't it make sense that the turbo which builds boost faster on the way to making the same power would provide the best power band?

here you go. DIRTY 74mm borg warner bush bearing cat diesel turbo vs GT4088R same boost as you can see "GT" isnt the be all end all of turbos.....

AND A SIZE COMPARISON for these two turbos. "GT" vs shwitzer borg warner. AND THE BORG WARNER IS A SOLIT 10MM BIGGER IN WHEELS ON BOTH SIDES, jet still has the same responce.

not having a go at you, just saying old, tried and poven wins every time.

[Lithium]

Yeah I have seen that and it confuses me, the BW S374 spools as I'd expect something like that to on an RB - if not slightly better but a GT4088R taking until around 5500rpm is a bit weird. Its a one off graph where the GT40 is a lot laggier than usual, though takes nothing away from the S374. Its kinda amusing being told things I've looked into years ago like I am being presented with some kind of revelation, I got very near running a Holset HX35 on my car but decided on a Garrett GT3076R - more to do with packaging and convenience of the single scroll than anything else.

I have no idea what you guys are doing with your GT35Rs, the ones I have driven are stupidly responsive once they are cooking. Maybe you are just keeping the revs higher (due to absolutely needing to) the whole time which will make it that much easier for the turbo to wind up on lift off then reapply of throttle or whatever.

[wrxkilla]

ok lets look at overall average power to see whats quicker from a to b

the gt35 has approx 15hp more between 3200 and 4200

while the t04z has approx 50hp more between 4500 to 8000

i dont know about you but if ur punting a rb26 you will spend 90% of your time on full throttle above 4500rpm

T04Z wins

thats not a real dyno graph. its one someone has manually made to compare, and between a hub dyno and a dynodyamics dyno.

lets start uploading more dyno graphs then we will get a better picture. When we have see say 5 of each on a 2.6 RB26 then we will have a better idea....

Michael

[wrxkilla]

and ps. trust me, If i was convinced, I would ditch the GT35 right now and strap on a T04Z...

[wrxkilla]

Hey mate, sorry.

My car isnt anything special. I'm sure it isnt a great example. But hey, it still ran 11.13 @ the drags on 18inch falkens.

2.6, no head work, GT35R with a 6boost collector style steampipe manifold, 272 10mm lift cams still set to 0 on the cam gears...

I'm only 20psi

My dyno sheet reads

4500 - 225 HP

5500 - 355 HP

6500 - 410 HP

7500 - 430 HP

I recon we can get it on earlier if we dial in the cams and with more boost much more mid-range power.