Gt35r Vs Garrett T04z - Discussion (just Post In This Thread To Create A Database)

[Lithium]

Ah ok sweet, cheers

[tommis85]

Hi all!

Thought I'd post my results in here to keep the intent of the thread going ;-)

The GT3582 is bolted up!

This is pretty much stage 1 out of about 3 so I'm happy that the car actually drives the way it does. The only things that have been changed from stock so far are:

- exhaust mani (offcourse)

- oil and water lines (braided)

- 2 into 1 air intake

- rising rate regulator

So yeah, no cams, no ecu and no fuel pressure mods (which are the next steps)

With out changing any of the timing or resetting the ECU etc, the car happily made 304hp at the rear on 15 pounds. Everything looked safe on the dyno computer but I do want to get a bigger pump and also a ECU asap!

So that's all good news, but there is some bad too. The car only runs well when you up it...it boosts very hard and pushes you back quite nicely when the turbine kicks in just after the 4300rpm mark however, the car runs a bit rough on idle and also when coasting around in 60km/h traffic. It's ever so slightly noticeable. It also has a fairly rough idle....not bad, but just a bit rougher than a normal GTR's idle.

So that's a GT3582 without any supporting mods. Stage 1 out of 3. It boosts hard, goes like a rocket but on the downside it's a bit rough when driven gently as a daily. The best way to describe it is, imagine the A/C kicking in and out continuously...lol!

Obviously there are many more dyno tunes involved with a PFC or something similar....but these are my "better than I thought" results for now. I never expected it to drive at all to be honest.

[tommis85]

PS - I will post up a dyno print out and photo soon.

[SimonR32]

rough idle etc will be all in the tune!!!

sounds like very low hp for that boost as well... i would be expecting it to make more like 300rwkw at that boost!!!

[tommis85]

Well this was only a tune up to get the car out of the work shop. It was also done on a 2 wheel dyno and not even to full rpm range - just a quick squirt if you know what I mean. It will be getting a PFC and bigger pump this week which should see much better figures at the same level of boost. Then after that there should be better figures again with the cams but still running same boost.

Dunno about 300rwkw on a stock engine without any supporting mods lol! You realise how much that is?

This is simply the results of what happen when you slap a GT3582r onto a factory bog stock (except exhaust) RB26 that has 70,000km on it.

Maybe would have had better results with a set of N1's - they would work better with the factory tune and cams.

Also, it was insanely hot in the shed they done the dyno in - the car went a lot better during the night than it did during lunch when I picked it up.

But yeh mate, just sharing results. Very early results, for those who may be reading who too are considering a GT3582.

Oh, and I should also mention that I'm glad I didn't go for the T04z! Some say it's up to 800rpm laggier than a GT3582 - I don't know how you're meant to drive that!

[tommis85]

Here's the dyno sheet for those interested.

[DCIEVE]

Your better off holding out untill the thing is properly tuned before making any judgements. We did a similar thing with mine just to get it running and out of the workshop and the difference is day and night. I would recommend straight fit cams before the final tune to really wake it up.

btw I'd agree with cerbera, around 400hp at 1bar is about right.

[tommis85]

Your better off holding out untill the thing is properly tuned before making any judgements. We did a similar thing with mine just to get it running and out of the workshop and the difference is day and night. I would recommend straight fit cams before the final tune to really wake it up.

btw I'd agree with cerbera, around 400hp at 1bar is about right.

Well the GT35 shifts a lot more air than the two stockies at the same pressure so there should be some more mumbo there once it's tuned properly. Right now it's 300hp at the rear so you think around 400hp would be more like it?

Maybe this 300hp is around the limit of the stock CAMs, ECU and fuel support combination? When you start replacing certain items the power should climb under the same boost.

Dcieve, did you have an aftermarket computer at that time or did you do exactly the same thing as me? ie. slap turbo on, check that mixtures are safe, and then drive off?

Also, should I be expecting 400rwhp in it's current state where everything is stock? Will the cams and ECU deliver this with 1 Bar? Or are you saying that once I put the cams in that then it will deliver the 400 at 1 bar? I think that's what you mean

Thanks for the replies by the way - this is pretty much the criticism I'm after to see if my money is getting well spent.

[archie01]

Maybe this 300hp is around the limit of the stock CAMs

Definitely not. My 389rwkw was on stock cams.

[SimonR32]

Well the GT35 shifts a lot more air than the two stockies at the same pressure so there should be some more mumbo there once it's tuned properly. Right now it's 300hp at the rear so you think around 400hp would be more like it?

Maybe this 300hp is around the limit of the stock CAMs, ECU and fuel support combination? When you start replacing certain items the power should climb under the same boost.

Dcieve, did you have an aftermarket computer at that time or did you do exactly the same thing as me? ie. slap turbo on, check that mixtures are safe, and then drive off?

Also, should I be expecting 400rwhp in it's current state where everything is stock? Will the cams and ECU deliver this with 1 Bar? Or are you saying that once I put the cams in that then it will deliver the 400 at 1 bar? I think that's what you mean

Thanks for the replies by the way - this is pretty much the criticism I'm after to see if my money is getting well spent.

cams, injectors and fuel pump will be good for 300rwkw but starting to run out of injector duty and pump flow, cams will still be fine well above this power...

seriously you should be getting a aftermarket computer and tune before you even think about making assumptions on performance!

no tune could cause a serious engine failure as well, get it tuned asap and dont thrash it before you do

Edited February 3, 2009 by Cerbera

[tommis85]

cams, injectors and fuel pump will be good for 300rwkw but starting to run out of injector duty and pump flow, cams will still be fine well above this power...

seriously you should be getting a aftermarket computer and tune before you even think about making assumptions on performance!

no tune could cause a serious engine failure as well, get it tuned asap and dont thrash it before you do

No problem. My tuner has recommended PFC and pump as the immediate things that need doing. Currently I'm not even driving my car to work as it runs pretty rough in traffic. When you're on very light throttle it feels like the A/C is kicking in and out repetitively. So yes, the car's locked up till I can get the computer and tuning sessions.

[GTRNUR]

Hey Tomek, whats the purpose of this car? Drags, short track, motorkarna, or circuit?

[tommis85]

VspecR33, I'm actually Tom mate...Tomek is another guy on here.

The car will be used for track work but also as a daily driver (to some extent). I'm hoping to get a shitbox to drive to work ;-)

[GTRNUR]

VspecR33, I'm actually Tom mate...Tomek is another guy on here.

The car will be used for track work but also as a daily driver (to some extent). I'm hoping to get a shitbox to drive to work ;-)

Sorry i got lost in the thread somewhere there..

No problem. My tuner has recommended PFC and pump as the immediate things that need doing. Currently I'm not even driving my car to work as it runs pretty rough in traffic. When you're on very light throttle it feels like the A/C is kicking in and out repetitively. So yes, the car's locked up till I can get the computer and tuning sessions.

It shouldnt be detonating with a stock ecu, the risk is that it might be running lean. It will need 2-4 degrees more advance across the entire base map when on boost compared to a stock PFC base map, and it will tolerate about 1.5 degrees additional advance per 1000rpm after peak torque around the 5500 RPM mark because of reduced EGT's and colder air charge because of the more efficent turbo (compared to stock that is).

The rising rate reg will likely be making it too when on boost as well. While it sort of works now these can make the car a pain in the ass to tune when you get the PFC in there. Getting it to maintain a steady 12:1 afr can be nearly impossible from my experiences. They arent very linear in operation, and when you are running above 1 bar of boost your fuel pressures get eratic and very high. Consider 43.5psi base pressure + (manifold pressure x2). Fuel pressures approaching 80psi slow down fuel flow from the pump too, load it up and heat your fuel up a lot. You can run out of fuel flow in top end.

Your going to be much better off with some larger injectors and a standard regulator and larger pump. Add a fuel cooler on your return line before it returns to the tank too if your running an 044/040 pump.

Also, if you have cam gears try running 2 degrees advance on the intake and 4 degrees retard on the exhaust. You should see quite a diference in the response and top end. It workd really well on my 33 GTR.

Keep us informed with the progress. Its good seeing someone doing what many of us have wanted to try but due to lack of available information we havent been brave enough to take the plunge. Id have liked to see the 0.63 turbine version of the GT35 tried as well, to try and overcome the lazyness of the GT3582.

Cheers

[tommis85]

Hey, thanks for your reply! This is the sorta info that I've been hoping for ;-)

Ok, so I'll be able to to a fair few timing adjustments when I have the PFC installed but right now, without adjustable cam gears, it would be a bit hard to do right? I've read that you can make the factory gears adjustable, but at a cost. There's nothing I can do now, or? (Bog stock remember)

Well I believe that he put the rising rate regulator in there to deal with the fuel at the high end of the tacho. With it's current level of tune (poor) you'd probably prefer to gave a safe/rich A/F mixture at the high end - at least it won't go kaboom then! He admitted that he hasn't dealt with GTR's as stock as mine before - most having at least 500rwhp when they rock up at his work shop. I don't think he's ever seen a fully stock engine bay like mine in a very long time.

So, for now I should be looking at:

- pump (which, apparantly is flowing a bit weak but not dangerously low)

- Power FC to get timing under control and to suit the more efficient turbine

- adjustable cam gears?

- bigger injectors so that there's room for tolerance (eg knock mode and so forth when they need to open up)

- take out rising rate regulator?

Cheers,

Tom

[GTRNUR]

Since your going circuit racing, id suggest leaving the stock pump in the tank and have it fill a surge tank you can mount in your spare wheel well in the boot. Get a bosch 044 pump to be your main supply pump, and it will draw from the surge tank and return to the tank via a smal fuel cooler (like an alloy transmission fluid cooler.

Adjustable cam gears are definatly worth getting, short of getting a set of pon cams they are the cheapest option. Modifying stock ones is possible but its not as accurate and not tunable when your on the dyno so your stuck with the modified settings and thats it.

Larger injectors have nothing to do with knock. They are simply to flow more fuel. A set of 700cc would be ideal for starters.

For a track car that might see use on hot days you dont want to run your PFC knock at anything above 15. 10-15 would be a good value to aim for. You also want 12:1 AFR's for the entire map where on boost, except for top end (above 6000 rpm) at full load where id suggest 11.8:1 to help keep things a little safer/cooler.

Plug gaps at 0.8mm, not 1.1mm. Just to guarantee the spark wont blow out on the higher boost levels.

Definatly lose the rising rate reg. That will allow you to achieve a good tune. Like i said in the other post, they cause too eratic fuel pressures. The PFC maps are designed to work with correction values for larger injectors but do not factor in non-linear fuel pressure changes.

Talk to a few more tuners familiar witht the FC as well. Im surprised that someone that is "familiar with 500rwhp" cars has recommended a rising rate FPR, especially where up to 1.4-1.5 bar will be run.

With that setup id be surprised if you didnt easily break 450rwhp on a maxed out tune. If the knock is down low it will be relitavely safe too, the danger will be oil surge when its on the track so you will have to take it easy in cornering till you can fit restrictors and an external drain from the head... or just rebuild the engine completely.

[Tomek]

VspecR33, I'm actually Tom mate...Tomek is another guy on here.

which started the thread ...

speaking of this thread, bottom end is complete, head is back ... 264 in 272 ex

Only finalising oil pump (got an N1, but afraid of using it) before the whole she-bang goes in.. should be able to update in a handful of weeks when motor is run-in and dyno-ed.

BTW 1.06 housing 35R on worked 26...

Tomek

[T04GTR]

interesting.. with you plans..

throw the rising rate fpr in the bin.. and put the stock one back on.

use a 044 intank. or better use the stock one to feed a surge tank with an 044.

ive used a 040 intank in the standard position in the tank and it cavitated its arse off. would not work once the fuel heated up.

id use a non air flow meter ecu such as a haltech plug in e11 etc etc.

you will need to get some 550cc injectors at a min.. 740's or 1000's would be better.

what ex housing did you use? and what ex manifold?

[tommis85]

interesting.. with you plans..

throw the rising rate fpr in the bin.. and put the stock one back on.

use a 044 intank. or better use the stock one to feed a surge tank with an 044.

ive used a 040 intank in the standard position in the tank and it cavitated its arse off. would not work once the fuel heated up.

id use a non air flow meter ecu such as a haltech plug in e11 etc etc.

you will need to get some 550cc injectors at a min.. 740's or 1000's would be better.

what ex housing did you use? and what ex manifold?

T04GTR, I know....my plans seem quite interesting. I'm lucky that it has worked in stages like this.....ok, it may not be driving the best in traffic but it actually drives safely. Just a bit rough, but according to the dyno screen everything else is in safe areas. I hope to have it all going properly by April for a couple of Top Gear races. In the next two weeks it should be re-tuned with pump and cam gears to get it going smooth again and possibly spread the power out a little bit better. Come April, it should be safe to do some racing with it.

I ran the FPR issue past my tuner and he's aware of it. He says this one is quite good but he knows that some of them do spike up and down in fuel pressure as fair bit. I'll ask him about taking it off all together - especially for when the ecu goes in.

When you're saying I should use a 044 intank (which I have in my GTST) do you mean that it's also the 040 that cavitates? Or do you mean 044? The pump in my GTST done that after driving for a while - surged it's ass off! I'll have to check out the surge tank option with a fuel cooler.

Yep, my tuner has recommended 740cc injectors in an earlier quote - they'll go in soon.

The turbo has a .82 housing. I haven't paid exact attention to it - but it seams to kick in between 4500 and 4800. With some adjustable cam gears and ECU where would you be expecting it to kick in then? Would it be a little bit earlier? Remember mine is 2.6L too.

Thanks for your help guys - I'm trying to take it all on board.

The exhaust is a stainless one that cost around $1200.

Edited February 4, 2009 by tommis85

[tommis85]

Since your going circuit racing, id suggest leaving the stock pump in the tank and have it fill a surge tank you can mount in your spare wheel well in the boot. Get a bosch 044 pump to be your main supply pump, and it will draw from the surge tank and return to the tank via a smal fuel cooler (like an alloy transmission fluid cooler.

Adjustable cam gears are definatly worth getting, short of getting a set of pon cams they are the cheapest option. Modifying stock ones is possible but its not as accurate and not tunable when your on the dyno so your stuck with the modified settings and thats it.

Larger injectors have nothing to do with knock. They are simply to flow more fuel. A set of 700cc would be ideal for starters.

For a track car that might see use on hot days you dont want to run your PFC knock at anything above 15. 10-15 would be a good value to aim for. You also want 12:1 AFR's for the entire map where on boost, except for top end (above 6000 rpm) at full load where id suggest 11.8:1 to help keep things a little safer/cooler.

Plug gaps at 0.8mm, not 1.1mm. Just to guarantee the spark wont blow out on the higher boost levels.

Definatly lose the rising rate reg. That will allow you to achieve a good tune. Like i said in the other post, they cause too eratic fuel pressures. The PFC maps are designed to work with correction values for larger injectors but do not factor in non-linear fuel pressure changes.

Talk to a few more tuners familiar witht the FC as well. Im surprised that someone that is "familiar with 500rwhp" cars has recommended a rising rate FPR, especially where up to 1.4-1.5 bar will be run.

With that setup id be surprised if you didnt easily break 450rwhp on a maxed out tune. If the knock is down low it will be relitavely safe too, the danger will be oil surge when its on the track so you will have to take it easy in cornering till you can fit restrictors and an external drain from the head... or just rebuild the engine completely.

Vspec R33, thanks for the info mate - very much appreciated as always. The thing is that I'm not on terribly big budget but nor do I want to take out a loan for the mods. I guess you see a lot of people who have these massive horsepower cars and a sh[t load of money and you wonder how the hell they do it. This is a bit of a reality check. Ideally you'd want to have it all on there at once but I've chosen to span it out over a couple of main stages that should see it complete by around April.

Stage 1: (completed)

Manifold, turbo, braided oil and water lines, fpr, 2 into 1 air intake pipes, turbo to intercooler pipe, stainless dump to 3" system, safe tune

Stage 2:

Fuel pump, adjustable cam gears and re-tune with retardation and advancement as per your recommendations (pump's not providing enough pressure and cam gears would make the car more stable for now)

Stage 3:

Haltec E11 or Power FC plus full tune up

Stage 4:

Intercooler, oil cooler, fuel cooler, splitfire coilpacks.......etc etc

Those are the stages. Obviously it would be most efficient to do them together as it would save money in re-tuning but seeing that it's a daily driver and I'm currently putting up with it's lumpyness (carefully) I have to get the work done progressively. I'm sure there are plenty of people on here in the same boat. Some may be lucky to have a second daily driver so that the project can be left in the garage.

Vspec R33, what do you think of them stages?