R32 - Rb20 220 230kws Vs New V8's

[adis]

I have pretty stocky RB25, on 10psi and i blew a VT GTS 250 kw on top end. I was shocked how shit it went.

[rodger1]

vt gts has 300kw unless it's a series one and then it has 220kw so maybe it was a clubsport u raced

[MBS206]

LOL @ all the people in this thread so wound up about how "great" imports are...

Seriously, go start comparing the power levels of V8s and their MPH at the drag strip (And 1/4 mile times too!) then do it with the Import turbos...

Better yet, enter any turbos data into the calculators out there for working out MPH and ET, then laugh at how far slower they really are...

Seriously, if in 6 months time my RB30 bottom end blows in my R33, it's coming out, and in will go an LS2...

I took a VE SS (STOCK) for a test run when I had just the RB25 in my R33... The ability to light the tyres up 1000RPM just by squeezing the throttle... Yeah... It kinda shocked me...

The V8 just kept on pulling the whole way through the rev range... There was no "waiting" for boost, it just pulled the same the whole way... And it was quicker...

Now then, lets take this simple R32 that's pushing 240RWKW... and throw the same amount of money at a VE SS...

So turbo + mani = what let's say $2500...

FMIC - $600

Injectors - $800

ECU + tune - $1500...

So we've spent $4400... And you're running what sort of time? In the 12s?

New VE SS... Spend that on the SS, and you should be cranking High 10s...

GM Motorsport did just this... Cam package, tune, and things like filters etc... In an auto... High 10s... (10.87 to be exact @ 128MPH)

So,will your R32 with the same amount of money spent on it keep up with a new V8 is a much better question... And simply, NO.

[joeyjoejoejuniorshabadoo]

vt gts has 300kw unless it's a series one and then it has 220kw so maybe it was a clubsport u raced

yeah, holden's figures are all at the flywheel and are thus NOT very impressive.... not to mention it weighs as much as rosanne barr riding an elephant

[joeyjoejoejuniorshabadoo]

LOL @ all the people in this thread so wound up about how "great" imports are...

Seriously, go start comparing the power levels of V8s and their MPH at the drag strip (And 1/4 mile times too!) then do it with the Import turbos...

Better yet, enter any turbos data into the calculators out there for working out MPH and ET, then laugh at how far slower they really are...

Seriously, if in 6 months time my RB30 bottom end blows in my R33, it's coming out, and in will go an LS2...

I took a VE SS (STOCK) for a test run when I had just the RB25 in my R33... The ability to light the tyres up 1000RPM just by squeezing the throttle... Yeah... It kinda shocked me...

The V8 just kept on pulling the whole way through the rev range... There was no "waiting" for boost, it just pulled the same the whole way... And it was quicker...

Now then, lets take this simple R32 that's pushing 240RWKW... and throw the same amount of money at a VE SS...

So turbo + mani = what let's say $2500...

FMIC - $600

Injectors - $800

ECU + tune - $1500...

So we've spent $4400... And you're running what sort of time? In the 12s?

New VE SS... Spend that on the SS, and you should be cranking High 10s...

GM Motorsport did just this... Cam package, tune, and things like filters etc... In an auto... High 10s... (10.87 to be exact @ 128MPH)

So,will your R32 with the same amount of money spent on it keep up with a new V8 is a much better question... And simply, NO.

100% correct, but they are also a LOT more expensive to begin with...

i'd take my 33 with aftermarket turbo and full house suspension setup over a stock suspension v8 anyday

and also i agree.... if i had my time again there'd be an GENTT in my bay right now

[joeyjoejoejuniorshabadoo]

that's a GEN-TT by the way... not a gent in my bay

[adis]

Yes sorry it was a Clubsport 250kw VT.

I personally am impressed with my car. Bought it dirt cheap, (8G), cooler and 10 psi and i bet a "superr aussie vehicle", da 250 big powa KW, for god sakes its a 5.7 L and we went top end. Im impressed with skylines even if odd people arent.

[joeyjoejoejuniorshabadoo]

my point was that a "250kw" VT is more like 200rwkw

[adis]

Fair enough, and my point is its twice the price i payed for my skyline at least, if not more.

[R33GTRKid]

there is no way you could spend only $4.5k on a VE SS and run 10's.

I just sold a LS2 ute, spent $6.5 k on it, for extractors, race cats, full custom stainless twin rear, cams and tune and the thing was only putting down 270RWKW, no way that is going to push 1800 kgs to 10's.

You would need a supercharger on any unopened V8 to get it below high 11's and I have had heaps of goes with various v8's.

IMHO, there is only one car I would go beyond a GTR and that is an F6 - with a change of cats, cat back system, injectors, pump, filters and tune (about $5k all up), you can run high 10's and the rest of the car will cope with it! My cousin has done it with his BF II, cost him $4,790 and 10.91 seconds

[Rekin]

LOL @ all the people in this thread so wound up about how "great" imports are...

Seriously, go start comparing the power levels of V8s and their MPH at the drag strip (And 1/4 mile times too!) then do it with the Import turbos...

Better yet, enter any turbos data into the calculators out there for working out MPH and ET, then laugh at how far slower they really are...

Seriously, if in 6 months time my RB30 bottom end blows in my R33, it's coming out, and in will go an LS2...

I took a VE SS (STOCK) for a test run when I had just the RB25 in my R33... The ability to light the tyres up 1000RPM just by squeezing the throttle... Yeah... It kinda shocked me...

The V8 just kept on pulling the whole way through the rev range... There was no "waiting" for boost, it just pulled the same the whole way... And it was quicker...

Now then, lets take this simple R32 that's pushing 240RWKW... and throw the same amount of money at a VE SS...

So turbo + mani = what let's say $2500...

FMIC - $600

Injectors - $800

ECU + tune - $1500...

So we've spent $4400... And you're running what sort of time? In the 12s?

New VE SS... Spend that on the SS, and you should be cranking High 10s...

GM Motorsport did just this... Cam package, tune, and things like filters etc... In an auto... High 10s... (10.87 to be exact @ 128MPH)

So,will your R32 with the same amount of money spent on it keep up with a new V8 is a much better question... And simply, NO.

I hope you're not an accountant because you would be $30,000 over budget according to your maths

There's still the matter of purchasing the car and with SS's ranging in the $40,000 obviously it will perform better with $5k mods than a $8k r32 w/ $5k mods...

Now if i spent an extra $30k on my r32....

[MBS206]

I hope you're not an accountant because you would be $30,000 over budget according to your maths

There's still the matter of purchasing the car and with SS's ranging in the $40,000 obviously it will perform better with $5k mods than a $8k r32 w/ $5k mods...

Now if i spent an extra $30k on my r32....

It may have cost you 30K more to throw into the R32, but what you have to think about, the guys attempting to compare, an old car, to a new car.

AND he was attempting to take a modified car, which has NOTHING you can really level it against without him properly running it down the quarter and getting times.

Hence, to "level" it back up, you need to throw the extra money at the new V8, OR leave the R32 stock.

Oh, and you may want to check out the price of SS now... They have come down a fair bit BRAND NEW with the economic crisis...

As to the guy who spent 6.5K and failed to get over 270RWKW, go call GM Motorsport RIGHT NOW, ask them what they can net you 1/4mile wise, and power wise, (The quickest) with just the basics of a 4-1 Exhaust, and a cam and a tune. You may well be surprised, especially since they're GUARANTEEING their work last time I read... I think you got jipped mate...

Edited January 22, 2009 by MBS206

[rev210]

www.realultimatepower.net

This thread is there now

[quenda-xr]

The LS2 VE HSVs are so overrated. I'm not saying that they're bad cars; I'm just saying that they not the supercar people make them out to be. I raced a stock VE HSV at the plex in cool 16C weather. He ran 13.9 @ 103 mph both times. He didn't stuff up the launch although he could have done slightly better imo. Still, the 103mph trap speed speaks for itself. My 4spd BA XR8 consistently hits 103-104mph with just headers and K&N filter (stock everything else - tune, cat-back, final drive ratio, torque converter and so on). The 'super car HSV' starts to look very silly compared to my 4spd XR8 which is widely regarded as a slug. So to beat/match a stock VE HSV your R32 will need to trap around 104mph at the end of the quarter. It should be noted that the VZ HSVs are significantly faster because they are 150kg lighter. It's funny how HSV claim the VE is the fastest yet but in the real world (at the track) the VZ eats it. I guess their lack of credibility was exposed when they made their famous 0-100 in 4.9 seconds claim which if true would put the LS2 HSV neck and neck with an RS4, M3 and ISF.

Onto other 'new' V8s...

A stock LS1 SS will trap around 100mph and a stock L98 VE SS will trap around 102mph.

A stock 307kw HSV puts out about 230rwkw and they weigh about 1840kg. That's comparable to an R33 GTS-T with 170-180 genuine kw at the wheels.

That being said, the LS motors have great potential when you start to put aftermaket cams into them. Stock they are very ordinary but once modded they hammer.

To make a manual LS1 commodore really fast you need full exhaust, OTRCAI, tune, diff ratio change, and cam. This will net around 270rwkw and it will cost over 7K. To get 300rwkw you'll need to get the cylinder heads done too. All up, the average person will pay about 9K to get 300rwkw.

300rwkw in a VT-VZ is about 250rwkw in an R33 GTS-T - based on power to weight ratio. Just as a comparision, how much will it cost to get an R33 to 250rwkw? I don't know much about imports.

[quenda-xr]

So we've spent $4400... And you're running what sort of time? In the 12s?

New VE SS... Spend that on the SS, and you should be cranking High 10s...

GM Motorsport did just this... Cam package, tune, and things like filters etc... In an auto... High 10s... (10.87 to be exact @ 128MPH)

So,will your R32 with the same amount of money spent on it keep up with a new V8 is a much better question... And simply, NO.

It's common for tuning houses to run great times that aren't backed up by the people who actually buy their kits. Still, in order to run a high ten, GM motorsport would have used a massive stall converter and lumpy cam which would have made the car virtually impossible to drive on the street. They probably would have stripped the interior out and run on slicks. Total cost would be closer to 7K (cam = 3K, tune 1K, stall 1.5K, slicks 1K). Yeah, awesome at the track but anywhere else it would be a dog.

[quenda-xr]

Let's face it the vast majority of people only do mild mods to their cars if any. They also want to maintain good driveability and fuel consumption as most use their cars as daily drivers. It would be interesting to compare the new VE SS to an R33 GTS-T if both had about 4K to spend on go fast mods. These cars are to be used as daily drivers and not as purpose built drag cars.

Most V8 drivers (ford and holden) who mod their cars usually don't go beyond fitting a full exhaust, cold air intake, and tune. This gives them a nice power increase while maintaining good driveability and fuel consumption. A full stainless exhaust (headers, cats, cats-back) will cost about 2.8K, an OTRCAI will cost $600 and tune will be about $600-1000 depending on whether it is mail order or custom. Total = roughly 4K.

An LS1 SS with these mods will run the 1/4 mile in around 13.4-13.5 seconds @ 105 mph. The VE with the L98 will be a bit faster and will probably run a flat 13 at around 107mph. This is in full street trim (street tyre pressures and full weight - yes that means the spare and jack in the boot).

How would an R32 or R33 compare?

[quenda-xr]

To make a manual LS1 commodore really fast you need full exhaust, OTRCAI, tune, diff ratio change, and cam. This will net around 270rwkw and it will cost over 7K. To get 300rwkw you'll need to get the cylinder heads done too. All up, the average person will pay about 9K to get 300rwkw.

Forgot to mention that you'll also have to upgrade the clutch so the total cost will be around 10K plus.

[MBS206]

Quenda, don't know where you're pulling your figures from...

But $3K for a cam... Um, that's an INSANE price to pay for one. Only some hippy weed munching idiot would be paying $3k alone for a cam.

http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=58304

See in there... It's $3300 at a very expensive tuning house to have the Cam you've chosen be supplied, fitted, AND tuned...

So your $1000 tune just simply disappears. And paying $600 for an OTR CAI is like the guys on here paying HUGE money for "HKS/APEXI/SomeJapBrand" CAI when you can simply make one yourself, or get a cheap version for $50...

And as for that tuning house one running the 10.87... I've seen the dyno graph... Power BAND from 2700RPM - 7200RPM... and the amount of torque it had below 2700RPM was still rather impressive. I'll try and dig it up... Also, it was running a manual, not an auto.

And why is it, that there are Cam + tune only LS1s out there (Privately owned) running 11s? I'm not talking tuning house. I'm talking privately owned cars. In full street trim.

As for comparing RWKW from a I6T to a V8NA...

Find mt what a 260RWKW R32 runs... or an R33... Then compare it to how much power you say is needed by a V8 to match (300RWKW wasn't it?) and then watch one do the same time, with the same power instead of needing 40RWKW more... PS, the link below shows a car, who's quoted kerb weight is in the high 1800KG... Yet it's running higih 10s... What'd happen if we stripped it back down to an R33 GTS-t weight, or even better, down to an R32 GTS-t weight?

http://www.gmmotorsport.com/gm_mrsls1.shtml

You guys have to remember, a V8 delivers power TOTALLY different to how a I6T does... They don't need as much power to run the same times. They have area under the torque curve. And f**k me, everyone on here keeps claiming it's the area under that torque curve that WINS races...

That cars mods are: GMM Custom TK Cam, GMM Pushrods, GMM Custom Cold Air Intake & GMM Custom Maf Tune, Di Fillippo 4 into 1 headers and Twin 3" Di Fillippo Exhaust

It's also the one that ran 10.87 in full street trim...

Notice how the POWER curve is basically a nice 45 degree angle? That is basically saying, the torque it's making down low, is EXACLTY the same amount of torque it's making up top... In other words... That would be an awesome car to drive on the street... No lag, no power holes...

Also, I hear a 350-370RWKW R33 GTS-t is what, about a mid - to low 11 second car...

Then why are the 8s, which are also heavier, dropping into the 10s...

http://www.gmmotorsport.com/gm_rippin.shtml (And look at the car above again...)

Oh, that's with the 5.7L, yes, with a bit more work done on it, so yes that one would be a bit expensive... But what I'm trying to point out, they don't NEED to make the power to run the times... There cars run the same, if not quicker times, with 100HP less...

Oh, just one last one...

260 RWKW = 11.4@117MPH...

Yet a 240RWKW R32 is crossing at what 105mph?110mph? But doing what, lazy mid to high 12s...

Yep... I'm sure your 240RWKW R32 will keep with "newer" V8s...

Edited January 25, 2009 by MBS206

[rev210]

this is a stupid thread like all Vs threads tend to be.

Look, the power delivery argument is very weak MBS206 as is a big pile of skyline fan garbage in this thread you have responded to.

I'm not taking a side here.

Drag racing setups and time predictions have more to it than shoving some dyno numbers under your nose.

I have done a little tiny bit of drag racing with V8's , rotors and and to much lesser extent these nissan things. It's all good fun.

What I notice is there are an equal number of people quoting dyno numbers in any 'brigade' who can't turn them into track times. The funny thing is that more often than not the guys really into drag racing may not be able to tell you 'exactly' what power their engine makes. I know a mate back in the day who must have rolled his eyes so much at the question " so how much power are you making " that now he can't look straight. I reckon if you survey drag racing teams for the most boring question they always get that would be up there.

The carry on is the same with fan boi's in the V8 arena at the track since time began. Garbage sprouted about ford / chev / hemi V8's power delivery meaning blah blah blah.... The people at the track crapping on about that are in love with thier own voice not drag racing. They are usually people who have never lifted a spanner in thier life and want to prove some sort of point about a brand.

If you asked me how much power I needed from an Rb26 to get into 10's in an R32 , I could say " less power than the LS powered 1800kg commo " and be totally right. At a guess I would say 300rwkw or a little less might do the trick. I would estimate by comparison I will need another 40 - 50 rwkw at least in the 1800kg wagon.

But, the problem is I don't care what the power is. I may not even know or remember once I am running 10's. I will not care if I break the 300rwkw number to get there if it serves the purpose of doing the time and feeling the thrill.And you can bet your bottom dollar I'll want to go faster.

they have some good dyno comparisons here;

www.realultimatepower.net

[SLAPS]

I own both.

The R32 with 200kw will kick a stock 220-250kw LS1 auto or manual.

Tweak the LS1 with an exhaust, inlet and edit making 210-240rwkw and its a no show for the R32 or an R33 until 140-150km/h+ only then the Skyline might catch it slowly.

The LS1 auto's when tweaked are damn quick off the line. Extremely difficult to keep with.

A mate of mine with his R33 200rwkw tuned, fmic, exhaust knows all about it.

My little R32 on the other hand is up over 400rwhp; even still off the line I can't really keep with the LS1. When 80km/h approaches the R32 sails by rapidly click third and it looks like the LS1 has hit its brakes. But thats useless for the street.

IMO there's no point owning a high performance street car that is only good up over 100km/h as a result of lag or lack of lag inducing wheel spin.

All round performance I find the LS1 quicker on the street, it grips changes gears fast and hard and is great on fuel (once tuned). It see's 12.5-13L/100.

The R32 doesn't lag (20psi by 3000rpm) spins the first couple of gears too easily even with sticky tyres; its really a 3rd gear 80-100km/h car.

Love the LS1 as a daily chirping its gears at 1/4 throttle with its stock tranny and a tuned ecu.

Awesome what they can do with ECU's and trans control these days. Press that power button and it completely transforms the car in to a gear holding, small throttle input kick back, gear chirping monster.

LOL - The LS1 doesn't even need forged pistons to sound like the skyline's piston slap forged motor on cold start first thing in the morning.

Edited January 25, 2009 by TheRogue