R32 - Rb20 220 230kws Vs New V8's

[quenda-xr]

Of course you can do things for really cheap if you know how to do things yourself etc. The prices I quote are what people who don't have much mechanical knowledge have to pay. So 3.3K for a cam (including tune), full difillipo exhaust will cost at least 3K, OTR $600, diff ratio change 1K (which is necessary when you get a cam to improve driveability), tex clutch will be around 1K, M/T street radials are about $700, and rip shift about $400? So in total a cam with all the supporting mods will cost around 10K and get the average owner into the high 11s.

Every man and his dog knows that if you throw in a huge CAM driveability will be severely affected and fuel consumption would be woeful. Driveability would be somewhat like the bug eye sti's - nothing, nothing, nothing but once you hit a certain high rpm all the grunt comes at once. That's why many opt for 'baby cams' which are quite okay to drive on a daily basis (assuming that the diff ratio has been changed to 3.9) but you won't trap anywhere near 128mph with a baby cam.

Like I said before I don't know much about imports as I've been into V8s for a long time. I'm not very familiar with what skylines run with 200rwkw, 225rwkw, or 250rwkw. But I can tell you that if an R32 with 240rwkw is trapping 105-110mph it is simply not producing 240rwkw despite what the dyno tells you (or there is something wrong with the driver or the setup). Don't forget that it's not all about power, the correct setup is essential when you are chasing low times not to mention the driver. My 200rwkw XR8 traps 104mph in full weight and that thing weighs 1800kg without me in it.

Could you get into the 11s in an R33 with a 10K budget assuming that the driver is competent and setup is right? If so, what would driveability be like?

Could you run a flat 13 in an R33 with a budget of 4K? That's what VE SSs are running.

Edited January 25, 2009 by quenda-xr

[joeyjoejoejuniorshabadoo]

Could you get into the 11s in an R33 with a 10K budget assuming that the driver is competent and setup is right? If so, what would driveability be like?

Could you run a flat 13 in an R33 with a budget of 4K? That's what VE SSs are running.

i'm gonna guess yes and yes

ask 2rismo... i beleive he's done similar to both

[MBS206]

i'm gonna guess yes and yes

ask 2rismo... i beleive he's done similar to both

2RISMO did it with gas also... Illegal for teh roads... And also needs constant refill which is constant money... Not sure how long his bottles last him.

Flat 13...

Tyres. - $700

ECU. - $2000 in and tuned for a "basic" ECU

FMIC - $1200 installed

Full Exhaust - $1000

Boost controller. - $400

Good driver. - Priceless...

So over $4k to run flat 13.

To get the power up to get extremely high 11s, you're looking at a new manifold, new turbo, and a new bottom end for a reliable high 11 second setup... New bottom end is around $6K in mods. New mani - $1100, new turbo $2000.... Plus you need the retune again, and you'd want to be looking at that suspension too as it's getting quite old and shagged. Forgot, cams too... And that's two of em that you need... That's $1000 alone before you even do the springs which need doing also, about another $400... Still need em installed too... All prices I've quoted for mani + turbo, is excluding labour, and the little things like $300 in oil lines and gaskets...

Then there's the diff that's going to need locking, another $1000...

As to that $600 for an OTR CAI, that's still a huge rip off. You could get a good setup in for $200.

Full exhaust system on an 8, including mufflers I was quoted $1300... Then the need for extractors, was $400 each... So less then $3000, and that was fitted. Drive in, Drive out.

From what I've seen with driveability of the LS2 and L98 on a HUGE cam... There isn't much of a driveability issue... The huge displacement just allows them to still get up and moving from idle.

And the R33s trapping a flat 13 are showing normally around 200RWKW, and hitting the line at 110MPH...

You will find, especially if you're used to V8s, what the imports lay down in MPH compared to their dyno graph, the dyno graph is usually 100HP odd inflated.

I used to argue the same until I did ALOT of digging. For the same MPH, the V8s just manage to run around 0.3 - 0.5 seconds on the ET quicker when you're talking up near the 11 second bracket.

Oh, as for driveability...

Get stuck any where below the 3500RPM mark and you're sitting there going "Is that an excel over taking me?"

Edited January 25, 2009 by MBS206

[quenda-xr]

2RISMO did it with gas also... Illegal for teh roads... And also needs constant refill which is constant money... Not sure how long his bottles last him.

Flat 13...

Tyres. - $700

ECU. - $2000 in and tuned for a "basic" ECU

FMIC - $1200 installed

Full Exhaust - $1000

Boost controller. - $400

Good driver. - Priceless...

So over $4k to run flat 13.

To get the power up to get extremely high 11s, you're looking at a new manifold, new turbo, and a new bottom end for a reliable high 11 second setup... New bottom end is around $6K in mods. New mani - $1100, new turbo $2000.... Plus you need the retune again, and you'd want to be looking at that suspension too as it's getting quite old and shagged.

Then there's the diff that's going to need locking, another $1000...

As to that $600 for an OTR CAI, that's still a huge rip off. You could get a good setup in for $200.

Full exhaust system on an 8, including mufflers I was quoted $1300... Then the need for extractors, was $400 each... So less then $3000, and that was fitted. Drive in, Drive out.

From what I've seen with driveability of the LS2 and L98 on a HUGE cam... There isn't much of a driveability issue... The huge displacement just allows them to still get up and moving from idle.

And the R33s trapping a flat 13 are showing normally around 200RWKW, and hitting the line at 110MPH...

You will find, especially if you're used to V8s, what the imports lay down in MPH compared to their dyno graph, the dyno graph is usually 100HP odd inflated.

I used to argue the same until I did ALOT of digging. For the same MPH, the V8s just manage to run around 0.3 - 0.5 seconds on the ET quicker when you're talking up near the 11 second bracket.

I agree, the 6L has more torque than the 5.7L so driveability should be improved. But it makes you wonder why so many people are still opting for baby cams for their street machines rather than more aggressive cams. It's all about day to day driveability at the end of the day. Most people want their cars to idle smoothly, maintain good fuel consumption, and have a linear spread of torque. That's what makes baby cams the choice for street driven cars.

For V8 exhausts the price varies depending on brand/quality and whether you fit it yourself. Generally a difillipo system (stainless) costs over 3K fitted for headers, cats, and exhaust. This is probably the most highly regarded system on the market but you pay the price. Xforce also make good value for money systems which are really popular. Fitted you're looking at around 2.8K. With V8s, exhausts are very expensive.

R33s should be able to quite easily get into the 12s with 110mph with a decent 60ft. It all depends on traction, driver skill etc.

I was just wondering if it is okay for an R33 to run a turbo back, cold air intake, FMIC, and boost controller without getting an ECU tune? Also, does the R33 really need slicks/MT drag radials to run a flat 13? I would have thought that they could manage that on good road rubber.

Edited January 25, 2009 by quenda-xr

[rev210]

2RISMO did it with gas also... Illegal for teh roads... And also needs constant refill which is constant money... Not sure how long his bottles last him.

Flat 13...

Tyres. - $700

ECU. - $2000 in and tuned for a "basic" ECU

FMIC - $1200 installed

Full Exhaust - $1000

Boost controller. - $400

Good driver. - Priceless...

So over $4k to run flat 13.

To get the power up to get extremely high 11s, you're looking at a new manifold, new turbo, and a new bottom end for a reliable high 11 second setup... New bottom end is around $6K in mods. New mani - $1100, new turbo $2000.... Plus you need the retune again, and you'd want to be looking at that suspension too as it's getting quite old and shagged. Forgot, cams too... And that's two of em that you need... That's $1000 alone before you even do the springs which need doing also, about another $400... Still need em installed too... All prices I've quoted for mani + turbo, is excluding labour, and the little things like $300 in oil lines and gaskets...

Then there's the diff that's going to need locking, another $1000...

As to that $600 for an OTR CAI, that's still a huge rip off. You could get a good setup in for $200.

Full exhaust system on an 8, including mufflers I was quoted $1300... Then the need for extractors, was $400 each... So less then $3000, and that was fitted. Drive in, Drive out.

From what I've seen with driveability of the LS2 and L98 on a HUGE cam... There isn't much of a driveability issue... The huge displacement just allows them to still get up and moving from idle.

And the R33s trapping a flat 13 are showing normally around 200RWKW, and hitting the line at 110MPH...

You will find, especially if you're used to V8s, what the imports lay down in MPH compared to their dyno graph, the dyno graph is usually 100HP odd inflated.

I used to argue the same until I did ALOT of digging. For the same MPH, the V8s just manage to run around 0.3 - 0.5 seconds on the ET quicker when you're talking up near the 11 second bracket.

Oh, as for driveability...

Get stuck any where below the 3500RPM mark and you're sitting there going "Is that an excel over taking me?"

You are misinterpreting the info you are reading perhaps.

Largely this is because there isn't alot of drag racing focus on this forum community, only when naming a hero.

I use the term : BOLT ON BOYS.

The V8 scene is as bad or worse. I have seen money thrown at setups that ran slow on all manner of vehicle. Mostly because some person says " I want X rwkw " not " I want X time over the 1/4 mile"

Dyno sheets are just toilet paper in importance when you rock up at the track and start making excuses. If I had a dollar........

Starting at the top.

2rismo. He is afterall a dirty cheating filthy ricer.

You want to run quick times at the drags but, want a stock road car with lovely manners? Nitrous is your friend. I told him this and he believed me.

I've had a play with this on small and big block V8's as well as just a little tinker with the old gtst. The principle is the same. Massive gains / low cost / stock road manners standard.

It's cheaper short and long term. Taking the kit out when going back to the road is no hassle takes very little time. Afterall only a cock is going to drive with full power around public roads. Most of these " but, I want power on call..." people never go to a real race track because they are too busy giving all of us a bad name and increasing our insurance premiums.

Then people say " but , I want a circuit car blah blah blah...."

Again, there are a number who will never ever get to a circuit day and if they did would be crapping on about how they have x rwkw , suspension brand and brakes and 'should' run such and such time.......

what about the 'expensive cost' ?

I only hear arguements from people who have never owned one. They always last longer than you expect and the power hits you get leave you with a great sense of 'value'.

A 10lb bottle costs about $100 to fill and it lasts 100 seconds at approx 100HP shot jetting. Thats a very long time when you consider it is only counting down at 100% throttle.

I sold 2rismo my old nitrous kit and he ran 11's with a stock turbo with it. Only hundreds of dollars worth of second hand nitrous kit.

He ran 12's with the stock turbo too no gas.

If you do it right ( I can do this to any healthy stock R33 gtst), you can run low 13's / high 12's with a stock intercooler, stock rims , stock tyres, S-afc, exhaust & pineapples. That would be about 170-ish rwkw in my books. This would be about 106mph and an even a crap 60ft to boot, so if you can drive and afford bigger than 205/55/16 cheap tyres you can get easily into 12's.

Does this sound reasonable?

Lets agree that this thread is total crap and worthy of the wasteland......although it's not funny.

Mods?

to the wasteland?

Edited January 25, 2009 by rev210

[quenda-xr]

Oh, as for driveability...

Get stuck any where below the 3500RPM mark and you're sitting there going "Is that an excel over taking me?"

I highly doubt that. Even off boost the RB25DET is tractable thanks to its high static compression ratio and 2.5L displacement. At the end of the day it is a 2.5L 6cyl pulling a 1360kg car. Even without the turbo the RB25 is a very good engine with 147kw and 255nm of torque. Which is impressive even by today's standards. The idle will remain civilised and you will still retain good fuel economy off boost.

In comparision, a LSX V8 with a huge cam will be a dog to drive in stop start traffic and fuel consumption will be crap even if you are trying to granny it. The whole car will be shaking and rocking like there's an earthquake. You would be idling at 2000rpm. There would be absolutely no grunt at low revs.

Yes, the L98 and LS2 have an extra 300cc over the LS1. However, this is only a 5% increase in capacity and don't forget the VEs weigh 7.5% more than the VT-VZ. This is only a small increase in displacement in a car that weighs 150kg heavier. A VE SS with a huge cam would have terrible manners on the street and would be a pig to drive. Perhaps you should ask GM motorsport if they would recommend their '10 second 1/4 mile cam' for street driven daily drivers. I'd bet my left nut that they wouldn't.

In comparision, the RB25DET is a whopping 25% bigger than the RB20DET. Now that's a significant increase in displacement.

An aftermarket cam will never offer the manners of the stock one. However, a baby cam will still offer decent manners, good driveability, and mid 12 second 1/4 mile times (with supporting mods).

[MBS206]

I agree, the 6L has more torque than the 5.7L so driveability should be improved. But it makes you wonder why so many people are still opting for baby cams for their street machines rather than more aggressive cams. It's all about day to day driveability at the end of the day. Most people want their cars to idle smoothly, maintain good fuel consumption, and have a linear spread of torque. That's what makes baby cams the choice for street driven cars.

For V8 exhausts the price varies depending on brand/quality and whether you fit it yourself. Generally a difillipo system (stainless) costs over 3K fitted for headers, cats, and exhaust. This is probably the most highly regarded system on the market but you pay the price. Xforce also make good value for money systems which are really popular. Fitted you're looking at around 2.8K. With V8s, exhausts are very expensive.

R33s should be able to quite easily get into the 12s with 110mph with a decent 60ft. It all depends on traction, driver skill etc.

I was just wondering if it is okay for an R33 to run a turbo back, cold air intake, FMIC, and boost controller without getting an ECU tune? Also, does the R33 really need slicks/MT drag radials to run a flat 13? I would have thought that they could manage that on good road rubber.

Oh, I know the V8 is a lot more expensive for the exhaust since you're looking at double the manifolds, so double the gaskets also, usually two cats, and as I prefer my V8 exhaust made... Dual system to the rear... Which is double the piping, double the mufflers... Double the price...

I've seen I think the best of a 12.8@~110mph from a 33GTS-t. The big thing with it, as you said, is driver skill.

The Ree with turbo back, CAI, FMIC and BC will be okay, so long as you set your boost on the dyno. Some stock R33 ecus run perfectly fine at 14PSi, where as others (like mine) shit them self, pull timing WAY back, and drop 30RWKW if you're running 10PSi...

And the R33 will do it without slicks/MT Drag radials, so long as you have decent rubber, and a good driver.

The big issue with the turbo cars for alot of people when launching, is they come off the line too soft. With an 8 it's not so much of an issue if you come off the line soft, as they still have low down grunt, but most turbos make all their punch up top... My R33 used to start to get moving at around 2500RPM, but REALLY didn't start to pull until 4500RPM when it switched over cam timing... So you come off the line a bit slow, and get caught down in the revs, you might as well re clutch it...

In reality, if you want a good setup for chasing 1/4mile times, basically is a nice light car, good suspension, and I've seen the V8 seems to do it the best.

Matching 1/4 mile times even across top end drag racers. When you get an identical ET, the turbo is generally 2 - 3 MPH quicker across the line then the V8... And you'll find on the rollers, the turbo is claiming more power, then the ET is actually showing up...

This is all I'm trying to state...

I love my I6T I really do... But when you crack the throttle at 3000RPM and you go "where's my power?" and then a second later as you start to climb past 4000RPM you're met with a real scream from the tyres as they attempt to fry...

Whereas, from what I've seen, even in the big cammed 8s, at 3000RPM they're up in a VERY useable power band... (I'm talking the V8s running 10/11 second here)...

The difference you'll still find, is sitting at 100km/h... That V8 is barely breaking 1500RPM... Whereas, my I6T is "cruising" at 2900RPM...

Match the gearbox and diff from the I6T to the V8... Watch it be an awesome fun tyre tearer...

Generally, the turbos are a very peaky motor, usually needing the tits revved off em, compared to an 8, where it's only really the modern V8s that go past 6000RPM (Street driven)...

But hey, I'd still love the Best of both worlds... LS2+TT... (PS, If my RB30 bottom end shits it self, it's a VERY distinct possibility... )

Quenda... You're saying you highly doubt it... But, have you owned the RB25DET? I have... And I've replaced it with an RB30DET... Now it has torque, even when off boost, but waiting for boost to come, so I can actually get moving, is the issue...

In 2nd gear, from 2500 - 4000RPM, a stock SV6 can sit side by side with me... Yet if I punch it in 3rd gear at 80KM/h, as I hit 90km/h and boost swings on I step out sideways... Yet a stock SV6 can roll on with me whilst I'm waiting for power to come in... And that's with the 3.0L...

Edit2: The LS2 just incase you hadn't realised/neglected to mention, was also available in the late VZs...

Edited January 25, 2009 by MBS206

[quenda-xr]

Yeah, an LS2TT would be a weapon with awesome driveability.

Nah, I haven't owned an import before. I'm seriously thinking about getting an R33 series 2 GTST or an S15 though. Then I can have the best of both worlds even though my Boss 260 has nowhere near the aftermarket potential of an LSX V8.

Just out of interest, what mods does your 33 have?

[MBS206]

Yeah, an LS2TT would be a weapon with awesome driveability.

Nah, I haven't owned an import before. I'm seriously thinking about getting an R33 series 2 GTST or an S15 though. Then I can have the best of both worlds even though my Boss 260 has nowhere near the aftermarket potential of an LSX V8.

Just out of interest, what mods does your 33 have?

I drove around with my R33 for 12 months running:

RB25DET.

FMIC

Turbo back exhaust.

All metal piping from air filter to engine (Makes a difference ditching the rubber pipe to the turbo)

light weight fly wheel, and 6 puck button clutch

I also like to note I was running light weight racing rims. These do make a noticeable difference.

And I had an Adaptronic e420c running the show (For the last 4 months of the twelve)

and a manual bleed valve.

And shocks I ran Bilstein aftermarket shocks. With GTS4 springs (Made it able to put power down in large sweepers better as the rear wanted to come around less)

NOW:

RB25 head, which has just been ported (And not yet put back together)

RB30 bottom end. Just stock spec bottom end with ceramic coated pistons.

6Boost high mount mani.

And a bit of a hybrid turbo, td07s housing with t04r comp wheel and a t66 exhaust wheel. Not the greatest setup turbo wise out there... But when it's on song... It hammers.

Also have a Bosch 044 fuel pump and Sard 870CC injectors for fuel supply.

Still running all the same clutch and ecu etc, just haven't yet had it fully tuned.

I'll be retuning it myself once I finish bolting the head down.

If I throw around 24 PSi down its throat, I should be able to rattle off around 370RWKW... But, my bottom end won't last long at that power level...

I'm only tuning at 14PSi, and hoping to push around 300RWKW, or actually, with some slicks bolted on, I'm chasing down around a 125MPH trap speed... Which should get me in the mid to low 11s... But at 300RWKW... I'm going to be pushing it VERY hard... For the strip I may tune for 20PSi...

Oh, also only running GTS-t suspension now...

Haven't yet done the diff, but I have the lock bar sitting here to go in to remove my HICAS, and I'm contemplating pulling the diff at the same time and shimming it...

As to buying an R33 or S15... They're awesome fun, and hell, the R33 has come down a SHITLOAD in price, to the point you can pick one up with loose change from behind the couch.

I really can't knock em, they're a good package, just for chasing 1/4 miles, I'd rather a new V8... In all seriousness, I'd like the LS2 even just NA in my R33... Lowers my kerb weight by 40KG!

[quenda-xr]

Yeah, most 2.0-2.5L turbos are peaky and none of them are rockets off boost. But from what I've heard, the RB25DET is fairly tractable at low revs especially when you compare it to the RB20 and the WRX's EJ20. Short gearing would also help the engine get on boost quicker.

The thing with drags and turbos is that you have to launch in the power band which is usually higher up in the rev range. If your car is RWD you will need good rubber to keep traction. The WRX is the perfect example of the potential of a 2.0L turbo and short gearing at the drags. The 2.0L versions are very weak off boost (especially the Sti). However, if they are launched properly (in the power band) they are extremely quick off the mark. I've seen timeslips of modded Foresters/WRXs running high 12s with 104mph and ultra low 60ft times. Turbos can be very quick if launched right.

[quenda-xr]

As to buying an R33 or S15... They're awesome fun, and hell, the R33 has come down a SHITLOAD in price, to the point you can pick one up with loose change from behind the couch.

I really can't knock em, they're a good package, just for chasing 1/4 miles, I'd rather a new V8... In all seriousness, I'd like the LS2 even just NA in my R33... Lowers my kerb weight by 40KG!

Your R33 sounds like a real weapon . GM crate motors are pretty good value. Holmart sells LS2s for 4.5K!

Edited January 25, 2009 by quenda-xr

[MBS206]

Your R33 sounds like a real weapon . GM crate motors are pretty good value. Holmart sells LS2s for 4.5K!

Holmart is where I've been looking... At even attempting to some how fit the 6Speed manual in the trans tunnel too...

As to my R33 being a weapon... It's slow compared to quite a few on this forum...