Holset Turbo's

[omy-33]

why r the photos of an rb25 motor tho?

[Cjmartz2k]

I'm at work right now so I can't see pics, but which pics are you talking about? I'm running a RB25 if it's any of my pictures.

[discopotato03]

Hi all , so tired ATM . Trains off the road at Longwood (Vic) and west of Yarrabandi (between Parks and Condobolin) and the network up the wall .

I've had a brief look into some of these Holset turbos and at a glance there seems to be a trend of slightly larger turbines in relation to compressors compared to some Garretts and of course the twin entry turbine housings .

I'm not so sure Holsets wheels are more modern/effective than Garretts GT ones but they are set up more towards big diesel engines that have a lot of gas throughput and needs tons of torque at low revs .

You generally find big torque diseasel turbos with healthy A/R ratios (big housings) and low restriction hot sides .

From a few pics I've seen these TS turbine housings are quite wide and have more squared off shoulders than many Garrett TS housings .

In a while I'll post what dimensions I've found for some Holset H1E , HX25/27 , HX30 , HX35/HX40 .

The burning question I have for FullRace Geoff is can the TS turbine housings be grafted onto Garrett GT BB turbos .

Recently he told me that he has become a dealer for either Holset or BW so he must like them .

As for BB vs TS , that's not really straightforward because they are associated with different issues . Having both would be top draw but until Garrett scales down something like the GT4088R to GT35R and GT30R dimensions it'll be hard to get anything off the shelf .

It's never going to be as easy with the Garrett small (GT25BB range - GT2554R to GT3582R) because parts for them don't grow on trees .

I'm reasonably sure the large BB cartridge size (found in T04Z/GT37R/GT40R/T51R/GT42R etc) is dimensionally same as their large plain bearing frame turbos . The shaft size and wheel offsets is very probably the same meaning the wheels/backplates/housings are probably interchangeable in the same sizes and trims .

Back in a while , cheers A .

Edited December 11, 2008 by discopotato03

[discopotato03]

Some Holset turbine and compressor wheel dimensions .

Turbine group Inducer Exducer Tip Height Shaft Diameter .

HX25/HX27

52.0 45.6 8.9mm

HX35/HX40/H1B/C/D/E and H2A

70.0 59.9 10.7 11.0mm

76.0 64.0 10.0 11.0mm

76.0 67.0 12.3 11.0mm

Compressor Group Exducer Inducer Tip Height Wheel height

HX35/HX40/H1B/C/D/E and H2A

83.0 52.0 6.4 40.0

83.0 60.0 7.2 40.0

83.0 46.0 5.1 40.0

83.0 54.0 5.9 40.0

Bear in mind that a GT3582R's wheels are like 68mm for the turbine and 82 for the compressor .

At 70 and 76mm the Holset turbines are either in between a GT35 and GT37 (70 vs 68 or 72.5mm) or in between a T04 and GT40 (76.0 vs 74.4 and 77mm) .

From the pictures of Holset turbines they are chunkier meaning heavier and aero wise a little dated looking .

The compressor wheels remind me of what older smaller IHI bush bearing wheels look like , the ones mentioned above are said to be 8 bladed but not sure if 8 full height or 8 high and 9 low .

Its not surprising that they can be in huge bulky compressor housings given that the details I read quoted the as being OEM on engines STARTING at 5-7 Liters capacity .

More as comes to hand , cheers A .

[discopotato03]

Lots of reading to do .

Cheers A .

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-syst...s-part-4-a.html

[discopotato03]

More Holset stuff , looks interesting .

http://www.holset.com.cn/pics-related/3-me...Ti-issues-4.pdf

Cheers A .

[alwaysdreaming]

most of the hx35's i have found have an internal gate, but i was reading that depending on the year of the truck the turbo is from (eg. 1997 dodge ram) depends on how much psi the wastegate is rated at.

the earlier models were 17psi, the new ones are 23psi.

if i was only looking at say 16-20 psi to start with, can i leave it internal? (money factor for now)

does changing it to external create any inefficiency in the turbo?

If only i could get hold of a holset in Aus! pathetic AUSdollar!

Btw chris, when i finaly get a hx35 i will most definatley try and fit it on standard manifold , wish me luck lol

thanks for all your help guys!

Gezza

[alwaysdreaming]

check out the size of this thing!

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=ag4nLpu1nJ0&...feature=related

it isnt a holset its a borgwarner but still, they are similar.

cannot beleive the size of this thing!

found it in my many diffrent searches for holset and borgwarner.

cheers

Gezza

[FATAZZ]

I went into Cummins around the corner here in Wetherill Park NSW.

asked about internally gated hx35 turbo... They said....just over $2000 and theirs are just RE-built units from the melbourne workshop.

Goodluck!

[discopotato03]

Yeah it could be difficult finding anything cheap here at Cactus Island , possibly from OS depending on the exc rate .

I did another long post in this thread the other day and lost it to a phantom shut down .

The guts of it was that Holset and Borg Warner appear to be using larger major diameter wheels than Garrett usually do in their GT BB range , and in smaller trims too .

Garrett put a lot of emphasis on their petrol spec BB turbos being compact lightweight high speed units but it does have some disadvantages . Moving lots of gas means having housings with large passages if you want the resistance to flow (restriction) to be low .

I think Garrett are changing their thinking and it shows with TS units like the GT4088R and some of their GT37BB range , the turbine trims have been reduced from the usual 84 to I think a more appropriate 78 . The 88R's compressor is 52T and the smallest GT37R - GT3782R has an 82mm 50T version of the 88R's compressor .

Something else to look at is the BW S200SX and S300SX turbos which are giving good results in the US , FullRace Geoff sells them and you can see them at his site . Still big bulky heavy but it's the nature of the beast .

A .

Edited December 15, 2008 by discopotato03

[Cjmartz2k]

So Garrett is moving more towards what Holset and Borg-Warner produce for trim sizes? I agree the one major drawback to Holset turbo's is the physical size (or plus in my case because it freaks people out when I pop the hood ) It does make for a stout, well built turbo though.

Again, my main draw to these is the performance to cost ratio. I won't argue that they do or do not outperform Garrett BB's till I'm blue in the face, but I can for certain say the performance is close enough for it not to matter (although I do think they outperform). Unfortunatly, it seems for you guys it'll be considerably harder to procure them as cheaply as we can in the states. They are real expensive turbo's to get new from the OEM, but we can get them cheap used from all the pick up trucks they come off of here, as well as surplus supplies of turbo's like HX52's that somehow "fell off the back of the truck" . I feel your pain on the weak dollar front. My USD here in japan is now only worth 89Y where it was over 125Y to the dollar when I got here.

I've also seen the non-extended tip BW's (S200 and S300 series) and they looked promising but I just didn't see near as much proven aftermarket research and usage by DIY'ers as well as such a ready supply of turbos.

Disco, have you drawn any independant conclusions on how these things perform from you researching? You seem to be looking into Holsets from a pretty impartial perspective.

[discopotato03]

Well Garretts GT4088R has been around for a couple of years now and it started life as a development mule with an 84 trim turbine and a different style of GT 6/12 bladed compressor - in 56 trim . A few were released for test purposes and of those a few escaped into the market with much frothing from big G .

It did not work particularly well and you can actually buy it in large frame GT bush/plate bearing form .

I'm only guessing but is highly likely that the rest of the GT30/35/42 etc range won't change in a hurry because the market still buys them .

Garretts main lines are OEM turbos and spares because that's where the volume sales are .

They have always been able to offer alternative compressor trim sizes and a 48 or 52T doesn't cost any more to make than a 56T .

Turbines and their housings are the expensive things to develop particularly for petrol engine turbos because high temp materials are expensive and often difficult to work with - esp turbine housings .

Sadly for us the hot side is always most difficult section to get right and cost makes it the least likely section to get changed from a manufacturers point of view .

No doubt Garrett are watching what their opposition is doing and gauging market reaction to it .

I try to be impartial because the only practical thing to be is a "parts sl_t" , if it's good enough for the manufacturers (cars) these days why should we be any different .

My conclusions ? Personally I think too many people are barking up the wrong tree having high boost pressure and revs as their goal , torque is the answer not kw or Hp .

I don't believe huge turbos are needed unless people want a vastly extended engine rev range and peaky power delivery .

Just on those Holsets , notice how their compressors are often 8/16 bladed and the housing is rather bulky ? I see this as a method of moving large volumes of air for big capacity diesel engines that don't have a very wide rev range .

Properly applied the twin scroll turbine system will always win hands down because its the way to have a reasonable boost threshold and lots of mid range torque and not need the extended engine speed ceiling .

Early in this thread someone posted a you tube link about some wag with I think a TS Holset on a Pomy Ford - Sierra Saphire type thing and it looks like a torque animal - to the point where it's easy on demand wheel spin everywhere .

If you could do it with a GT30R or 35R with a "fat" TS turbine housing it'd be worth it wouldn't it ?

Ages ago some switched on Americans got 440 Hp and 400 ft/lbs of torque into a tarted up SR20 without reving the piss bags out of it - GT32 TS housing on a propper GT3071R .

At the end of the day if a Holset or BW isn't cheap it could well turn out to be an orphan so look around , Garrett make TS plain bearing diesel turbos too .

A .

[alwaysdreaming]

hey guys just been searching ebay and found this.

the guy doesnt know the actual model "hx35,hy35,hx55 ect."

these are the details he has given, any idea on what it is?

The tag reads:

Cummins Kit 3800 401RX

Assy. 3538232

Serial 134 05 97

The diameter of the hole where the turbine is at the steel end:

Internal - 83mm External - 101mm

The diameter of the hole where the turbine is at the alloy end:

Internal - 93mm External - 101mm

The diameter of the hole where the pressure is fed back to the engine (alloy):

Internal - 53mm External - 74mm

thanks for any help you can offer.

Gezza

[Cjmartz2k]

You need to get the measurements on the wheels, not the holes. That will give a lot better idea of what it is. It looks like one of the older designs though.

Anybody know what kind of spool times GT30r's and GT35r's do on a RB25?

[CEF11E]

hey guys just been searching ebay and found this.

the guy doesnt know the actual model "hx35,hy35,hx55 ect."

these are the details he has given, any idea on what it is?

The tag reads:

Cummins Kit 3800 401RX

Assy. 3538232

Serial 134 05 97

The diameter of the hole where the turbine is at the steel end:

Internal - 83mm External - 101mm

The diameter of the hole where the turbine is at the alloy end:

Internal - 93mm External - 101mm

The diameter of the hole where the pressure is fed back to the engine (alloy):

Internal - 53mm External - 74mm

thanks for any help you can offer.

Gezza

that is a dinosar it is of a 6.7 litre cummins powered earth mover. it was designed to diliver a scud of torque at very small rev range. about 2600 to 3200 rpm. it has a strange anti surge ring machined into the compressor housing and the compressor wheel has notches that fit into the ring. on an rb25 it would see boost at around 5500 to 6000 rpm

the one you want to go for is a hx35 not one of these

[mattsr31]

look at this big f@#ker

[Cjmartz2k]

Not that there aren't some impressive giant Holset turbo's out there, but see you guys looking at the big ones and think you are missing the main point of the smaller ones like the HY/HX35 and HX40 (not that a almost 700hp capable turbo is small). HX35's are spooling like GT30's and flowing like the smaller GT35r's. That's what I find impressive.

[juggernaut1]

The Borg Warner s300sx also seems to be a very capable turbo spooling similar to a GT35. I note the BW s300sx's are available from Full-Race at just over $1,000 US.

Here's a comparo on an Evo 2 litre and 2.3 litre.

http://forums.evolutionm.net/service-parts...roll-gt35r.html

Edited December 18, 2008 by juggernaut1

[Cjmartz2k]

Very interesting read. Also interesting to note those are almost the exact same measurements of my compressor (60mm inducer, 84mm exducer). I wonder if that test will change some minds?

*Edit--I just noticed the GT35r they compared it too was a twin scroll housing. Are most of the GT30/35's out there twin scroll?

Edited December 18, 2008 by Cjmartz2k

[juggernaut1]

One thing I notice with the BW's is that they can generally match their Garrett counterparts at moderate boost levels but when the wick is turned up the BW's shine - presumably a function of their extended tip technology.