2009 F1 Season

[TALBO]

From my understanding the issues with KERS are not associated with the use of it but rather the 30-40Kg added to the car and how exactly to maintain the cars balance with it added.

[djr81]

From my understanding the issues with KERS are not associated with the use of it but rather the 30-40Kg added to the car and how exactly to maintain the cars balance with it added.

This years cars are predominantly grip limited at the rear. Which means the teams try & get as much weight forward as possible. (By the way this is why the diffuser ruling is so critical)

With the KERS you obviously need a motor tied in with the drive train to get the power out. Beyond that the batteries need to go as far forward as possible.

On the upside I don't think any of the teams are running over weight because of KERS.

On the downside obviously there will be limits to how much ballast you can redistribute when running it.

But weight distribution shouldn't have a marked affect on braking performance.

[jase-r34]

isn't that what everyone wants? overtaking??

I'm not so convinced about Webber's performance as some of you. How many times did he almost loose it or run off the track attempting to pass? He was certainly having a go, but not entirely convincing if you ask me. I thought he spent a few laps there doing his best "accident looking for a place to happen" routine. Sure he looked fast in the wet when he jagged the right tyre decision to go to inters despite the black sky that looked to be promisig the downpour that came later. But that was against a crap car (McLaren). And let's not forget he got owned by Glock's Toyota in the wet as well. How would Vettel have gone if it wasn't for that incomprehensible 10 position grid penalty?

Webber may have been a bit ragged at times but he was getting the job done much better than some of the so called 'fast' guys. Ie Hamo and Rubens who did manage to go off!

My big LOL was for Heidfeld though, he was struggling huge and pulled off second.

Also don't forget Vettel was 10kg lighter than MW when he qualified 2 spots higher as well...Agreed though that the penalty was total BS!

[TALBO]

This years cars are predominantly grip limited at the rear. Which means the teams try & get as much weight forward as possible. (By the way this is why the diffuser ruling is so critical)

With the KERS you obviously need a motor tied in with the drive train to get the power out. Beyond that the batteries need to go as far forward as possible.

On the upside I don't think any of the teams are running over weight because of KERS.

On the downside obviously there will be limits to how much ballast you can redistribute when running it.

But weight distribution shouldn't have a marked affect on braking performance.

And obviously the cars balance (where this weight is distributed) has nothing to do with traction, braking and cornering speed..... I think it's pretty obvious that the rear diffuser is allowing some teams greater grip in the rear of the car.

RBR don't have what is considered an illegal rear diffuser and they've seemed to produce a pretty damn fine car this year which to me isn't that surprising considering who designed it.

For anyone who is doubting the abilities of Newey or just simply aren't aware of his history of winning, I've quoted this below from another thread....

Not really surprising to see that RBR are starting to show some signs of speed. Adrain Newey who has designed the RB5 has had massive success in F1. For those that weren't watching GP's in the 90's, Michael Schumacher was the only driver between 1992-2004 to win WDC's against Newey designed cars. Vettel and Webber should be feeling quite confident

1992 - Nigel Mansell - Williams by Newey

1993 - Alain Prost - Williams by Newey

1994 - Michael Schumacher - Benneton

1995 - Michael Schumacher - Benneton

1996 - Daman Hill - Williams by Newey

1997 - Jacques Villeneuve - Williams by Newey

1998 - Mika Hakkinen - McLaren by Newey

1999 - Mika Hakkinen - McLaren by Newey

2000-2004 - Michael Schumacher - Ferrari

[djr81]

And obviously the cars balance (where this weight is distributed) has nothing to do with traction, braking and cornering speed..... I think it's pretty obvious that the rear diffuser is allowing some teams greater grip in the rear of the car.

I guess that was sarcastic. Hard to tell. Clearly weight distribution will profoundly affect traction & have an influence on cornering speed. My point was that the relatively influence it has on braking performance in no way explains the complete hash many drivers are making of defending their places into corners. Alonso was all over the place in Malaysia & clearly he is no Muppet.

RBR don't have what is considered an illegal rear diffuser and they've seemed to produce a pretty damn fine car this year which to me isn't that surprising considering who designed it.

RBR's scope for running an "illegal" rear diffuser will be seriously hampered by their pullrod rear suspension. You can bet someone somewhere is beavering away designing a pushrod rear setup for the RBR.

For anyone who is doubting the abilities of Newey or just simply aren't aware of his history of winning, I've quoted this below from another thread....

Adrian Neweys abilities (in an F1 sense) have not been in doubt since he designed the Leyton House Marches that offered the only real competition to the McLarens in 1988. The amusing bit about Leyton House was who their motors were designed for & by - not necessarilly who had their names on the cam covers...

[TALBO]

Agree, Alonso is no muppet but I don't think his woes and others can be 100% attributed to KERS. This years Renault car looks like an absolute pig (handling/traction wise) wet or dry track.

The 1988 Ferrari, Lotus, Benetton cars weren't exactly mixing it with the McLarens (15 wins from 16 starts) either but I would've said that the March team were best of the rest.

Who were the Judd engines designed for? Williams F1 later used them too iirc....

[sh@un]

Some food for thought re:KERS- It's mandatory from next season, so all the current buzz teams like Brawn GP are gunna cop it next year when they have to go through the teething stage with their systems. Meanwhile McLaren can just adopt the cheater-diffuser on the 2010 car (assuming it doesn't get outlawed on the 14th at the hearing) and be back at the pointy end.

An F1 car rated by their top driver as a 4/10 suggests I won't have much to cheer about this year...

[TALBO]

I won't have much to cheer about this year...

I'm in a similar boat being a Ferrari man..... but I'm going to be optimistic and keep thinking that they (Ferrari) will use Fridays 2 x 1.5Hr sessions to get their cars to the pointy end of the grid again.

Edited April 7, 2009 by TALBO

[BezerkR32]

i think it was proven on the weekend that Kers provides no advantage in a wet race.

[R31_pwr]

its my understanding that the KERS system is powered directly by the engine, not using the 'brakes' at all, similar in effect to an engine brake on a truck. this means that as the system reaches full charge there is a loss of retardation that would normally be offered by the KERS, and since the engine is only linked to the rear wheels this throws the braking ballance off

[R31Nismoid]

i think it was proven on the weekend that Kers provides no advantage in a wet race.

In an unsorted car, yes I agree. Although it gave webber issues with the overtaking. the RB car is better by a long shot.

The McLaren simply doesn't not look like its driving well, and from reports about how LH feels, its much the same

[ctjet]

i wonder if its worth asking heikki what the car is like to race with?

[djr81]

Agree, Alonso is no muppet but I don't think his woes and others can be 100% attributed to KERS. This years Renault car looks like an absolute pig (handling/traction wise) wet or dry track.

The 1988 Ferrari, Lotus, Benetton cars weren't exactly mixing it with the McLarens (15 wins from 16 starts) either but I would've said that the March team were best of the rest.

Who were the Judd engines designed for? Williams F1 later used them too iirc....

Judd motors (the 3.5 litre V8's anyway) were used by Williams, March (Leyton House) & Ligier. Later by Lotus. Judd had a long history in F1 & other categories - he worked on the championship winning Repco V8's & had extensive dealings with Honda. Judd engine developments company still exists today.

Interestingly (or not) the motor the Leyton House team went on to use was an Ilmor V10. Which morphed into a Mercedes Benz badged unit. Which went into the back of the Sauber. Well before Sauber was taken over by BMW. See how incestuous F1 is?

[TALBO]

Yes the Ilmor deigned/built Mercedes engines were also used by McLaren to success in 98/99. As far as I know they are still built by Ilmor in the the UK for McLaren/Brawn/Force India

[djr81]

Yes the Ilmor deigned/built Mercedes engines were also used by McLaren to success in 98/99. As far as I know they are still built by Ilmor in the the UK for McLaren/Brawn/Force India

The best work Ilmor did was designing a push rod V8 for the Indy 500. The motor had a life of exactly one race - the 1994 Indy 500. Needless to say it won.

Ilmor was bought by MB ages ago. The Ilmor that exists today came about via a Honda Indycar engine programme & Roger Penske's involvement. Same thing just different.

[TALBO]

Didn't know MB bought Ilmor....

[Marco-R34GTT]

McLaren's sh1t kicking fallguy is no longer with macmerc...

Macmerc called before WMSC, Dave Ryan no longer with McLaren..

Doesn't sound very Schumacher or Senna-esque to me...

[Roy]

The best work Ilmor did was designing a push rod V8 for the Indy 500. The motor had a life of exactly one race - the 1994 Indy 500. Needless to say it won.

Ilmor was bought by MB ages ago. The Ilmor that exists today came about via a Honda Indycar engine programme & Roger Penske's involvement. Same thing just different.

Yeh, i remember the Ilmor Indy Car engine. The rules said if you were silly enough to run push rod then you could run more boost and a few other freedoms. Needless to say after Ilmor did it and started winning the rules were changed.

[wrxkilla]

but give the guy a break. he hasn't passed anyone in about 6 years or so. he's bound to be a bit rusty. he'll get back into it.

quote that shizzle for the truth. Exactly my sentiments!

and yeah, i dont like KERS. Go RBR (I think Vettel might challenge for championship) and go the BRAWN!

[BezerkR32]

go ye old pushrod engine lol

The best work Ilmor did was designing a push rod V8 for the Indy 500. The motor had a life of exactly one race - the 1994 Indy 500. Needless to say it won.

Ilmor was bought by MB ages ago. The Ilmor that exists today came about via a Honda Indycar engine programme & Roger Penske's involvement. Same thing just different.