2009 F1 Season

[TALBO]

Hey, i like Webber and try not to be one-eyed, but how can you say Vettel out raced Webber? Webber didnt lose positions off the start, Vettel went P2 to P4 in the first corner.

Webber fought off Alonso and had a great second stint punching out better lap after better lap as the fuel laoded and tyres improved...yet Vettel just stared at the tail pipe of the Ferrari. The fact that KERS cars are bad under brakes and not as quick mid corner, Vettel really should have put more pressure on Massa.

In my eyes Vettel had a shocker!

Not one eyed, I call it how I see it. I'm a Ferrari fan and admit Ferrari f**ked it in qualifying and also f**ked it with Massa's strategy in the same way RBR f**ked Vettel over....

Easy to say. Webber's strategy (long 2nd stint on softs) allowed for him to run longer on the softer tyre rather than Vettel's strategy which cost him dearly as he was running the harder compound for a longer stint. RBR should have changed Vettel's strategy to get him out from behing the Ferrari..... I'd be a little disappointed in my team if I were Vettel. Why Brawn GP had Rubens on a 3 stop is pretty disappointing too imo.

As for Webber fighting off Alonso..... well realistically there shouldn't have been a contest. The Renault is hardly a match for the RB car don't you think...?

[hrd-hr30]

I was watching the live timing and once clear of Massa Vettel was 1.8 to 2 seconds a lap quicker then Mark for the last 6 or so laps of the race.

Thing is though, Webber was being held up by Rubens at this point. Before arriving on his bumper Webber was doing 23s with higher fuel load to catch Rubens, but then slipped into the 55w, the same lap times as Rubens as he followed. For the laps after his second stop he was in the 23s.

Whilst Vettel was being held up by Massa, after the first round of pit stops Webber was behind the late stoppers, Hamilton etc and was not all that pacey, as soon as they pitted he was the quickest guy on the track just about every lap for about 16 lap. He made 32 seconds on Vettel an Massa in the second stint.

It wasnt just strategy, he raced like a "flamin champion" to get his 3rd. Vettel meanwhile proved he is human and even though having a far quicker car could not clear Massa.

that's a very selective summary of what happened. Mark made up the majority of his time on Massa and Vettel when they were on their long final stint running the much slower hard compound tyres and Mark was on the fast soft tyre. Mark got all that clean air running and spent alot more time on the faster tyre, and managed to beat his team mate who spent 99% of the race stuck behind a KERS car that was 2 sec a lap slower, by just 5 seconds.

It was just strategy. If RBR had got Vettel ahead of Massa in the pits or just fuelled him long in the 2nd stint to get him some clear laps at the end, and minimise his time on the slow tyre it would have been a totally different story. All he needed was about 7 seconds to make 2nd place, which is what - 4 clean air laps???

[Roy]

Selective summary? How much time did Webber make on Vettel/Massa?

I agree, Vettel screwed the pooch with regards to strategy, and odds are he would have been on the poduim if not for Massa holding him up. But Vettel did a Webber off the line, for once Webber held position. Thats what hurt his race right there, his inability keep the 2nd row behind him,

[hrd-hr30]

Hey, i like Webber and try not to be one-eyed, but how can you say Vettel out raced Webber? Webber didnt lose positions off the start, Vettel went P2 to P4 in the first corner.

Webber fought off Alonso and had a great second stint punching out better lap after better lap as the fuel laoded and tyres improved...yet Vettel just stared at the tail pipe of the Ferrari. The fact that KERS cars are bad under brakes and not as quick mid corner, Vettel really should have put more pressure on Massa.

In my eyes Vettel had a shocker!

it was RBR that had the shocker for Vettel. 63laps they left him stuck behind a 2sec slower car on a track that's notoriously hard to pass on. And the car he was stuck behind had KERS so the only opportunity on the front straight was pretty much never going to happen. Vettel lost positions to 2 people ont he start - Ruben, who went around everyone, and Massa who also got a great start and with KERS was alwatys goign to make places in the run to the first turn. It wasn't like he bodged the start or got out-raced into the first turn. Vettel had a shocker?

[Roy]

He qulified P2 and was lucky Massa had a fuel refilling problem as he would have finished 5th. Its a poor result for him. Webber for once had the right strategy and made it work. Based on the pace of the RBR he had a good chance of a win today, but he didnt get the job done on the first lap. Button did it in Bahrain, Vettel couldnt do it yesterday.

I just cant see how you can say a guy that lost places on the start, and was fortunate to finis 4th out raced somebody who started 5th and finished 3rd, only 1 second off 2nd and 13 seconds behind first. That is a good race result for the guy considering where he started and where he was relative to Button at the first round of pit stops

[hrd-hr30]

the drivers don't make their own strategies...

[Beer Baron]

well if vettel is so bloody good then why couldn't he pass he massively slower ferrari which was basically coasting to save fuel? I can't see how vettel out raced webber.

vettel went from 2nd to 4th on the first lap. I don't think that was a strategy call. I'm fairly certain RBR didn't say, "hey vettel drop some spots off the grid mate."

webber had a good start, kept it clean and held his spot.

vettel got trapped behind massa and did nothing about it.

webber nearly got stuck behind alonso and carved him up nicely. then ran away from him. webber and alonso were together on track at that point but mark finished about 20 seconds ahead of sanchez. if he'd pussied out he would have been stuck behind him.

vettel only got 4th at all because it was gifted to him by massa who basically pulled over 5 laps from the end. otherwise he would have had a 'well deserved' 5th place to think about from 2nd on the grid.

webber drove a great race guys. he was quick at the right times, and sure he had a good 2nd stint, but he took pain for it early on and looked like he was out of the game. no one knows in advance what the best call is going to be. as best I could tell vettel had the prime or safe strategy. he was on the same strategy as all the other main players, webber was the one with what looked to be the dud strategy. but he ran hard at the end of the stint and clawed back that time. give the bloke some credit. vettel was ordinary. he did nothing special all race. he just went backwards from the first moment. webber made his way up for once.

[Roy]

the drivers don't make their own strategies...

I have to seriously question that. How can you say a driver doesnt call the strategy? He is the one in the car telling them what tyres are doing, how the car feels. I have never heard that the pit call the strategy exclusively.

I think the real issue is that Ferrari knew the RBR was quicker, sso even though heavier on the grid, they pitted when they saw that Vettel was coming in. Second round of stops Ferrari again make sure Vettel doesnt get any clear air laps... Ferrari actually got some strategy right on the weekend

[hrd-hr30]

well if vettel is so bloody good then why couldn't he pass he massively slower ferrari which was basically coasting to save fuel? I can't see how vettel out raced webber.

a few reasons - #1 KERS up the straight. #2 end of the straight is the only passing opportunity there. #3 No adjustable front wing ont he RBR cars, which may have helped when stuck behind a slower car...

vettel went from 2nd to 4th on the first lap. I don't think that was a strategy call. I'm fairly certain RBR didn't say, "hey vettel drop some spots off the grid mate."

because of a screamer from Ruben who jumped every single car in front of him, and Massa who was always going to pass people int he run to the 1st turn!

Vettel only got to show his pace for a few laps at the end of the race, and was catching Webber and the Brawn cars which are the class of the field, hand over fist. It was only strategy that let him down, and that's nto the driver's call. All they had to do was fuel himlong in the second stint and he could have leap-frogged Rubens into a 2nd place.

webber nearly got stuck behind alonso and carved him up nicely.

nearly got stuck behind Alonso when Alonso passed him...

webber drove a great race guys. he was quick at the right times

yep, he was quick when his team put him in wide open spaces. Vettel didn't get the same opportunity, spending 63laps stuck behind a slower car. And after his complete shocker and Webber's awesome race, he was only 5sec behind him at the end.

[hrd-hr30]

I have to seriously question that. How can you say a driver doesnt call the strategy? He is the one in the car telling them what tyres are doing, how the car feels. I have never heard that the pit call the strategy exclusively.

I think the real issue is that Ferrari knew the RBR was quicker, sso even though heavier on the grid, they pitted when they saw that Vettel was coming in. Second round of stops Ferrari again make sure Vettel doesnt get any clear air laps... Ferrari actually got some strategy right on the weekend

lol apart from the strategy of putting enough fuel int he car to finish the race!

[Roy]

LOL, yeh like i said, SOME strategy

yep, he was quick when his team put him in wide open spaces. Vettel didn't get the same opportunity, spending 63laps stuck behind a slower car. And after his complete shocker and Webber's awesome race, he was only 5sec behind him at the end.

Come on. Swings and roundabouts. Look at Webber in China, he had the heavier fuel so it was expected that he would have stopped after Vettel. Instead they pull him in first, and Webber comes out behind all the slower longer stint cars. It hampered his race pace for the next 8-10 laps. Then he had to do a number on Button, so after all this extra work i think he finished, what 12 seconds behind Vettel. A race full fo spray. That weekend Vettel got put in clean air through pit strategy.

And to say Vettel was quiker at the end of the race, by this point Webber was behind a slowing Rubens. Webber had been quicker before getting to 1 second behind Rubens, to that point he was as quick/quicker then Button by a a tenth or three

And after his complete shocker and Webber's awesome race, he was only 5sec behind him at the end.

He was P2, his team mate P5 and he finished 5 seconds behind his team mate. That would have to be a disappointing result. Though looking at the guy post race it was as though it was weeks ago. No wasted energy on the past from young Vettel

[hrd-hr30]

8-10 laps> wow. put him behind a slow car for 63 laps and see how he goes.

[Gts-t]

massa had kers to hold off vetel

[Roy]

8-10 laps> wow. put him behind a slow car for 63 laps and see how he goes.

Webber was behind the same slower car for the first 17 laps. Was then behind the long first stint guys, so it wasnt an easy stategy to make work.

And i dont think its fair to trivialise the laps behind the slower cars in China. It was horrible conditions and Webber spent 85% of the race in the spray of other cars. So not just the slower cars to contend with, but the visibility...then the need to puch harder to make time in diffcult conditions.

...and i will add Webber did shithouse behind a slower KERS equipped car in Bahrian, he couldnt do anything to PK Jr

[TALBO]

well if vettel is so bloody good then why couldn't he pass he massively slower ferrari which was basically coasting to save fuel? I can't see how vettel out raced webber.

I'm not saying Mark didn't race well, he did but I think Vettel did better considering circumstances. I don't know what makes you think the Ferrari of Massa was 'massively slower'.... Have you seen aggregate times of the 3 practise sessions and also qualifying times/weights...?

Brawn no doubt about it had the best race package but I don't think there was much between the RBR and Ferrari had the strategies been the same.

[Roy]

How did he do better though?

[Ant97GTR]

positions to 2 people ont he start - Ruben, who went around everyone, and Massa who also got a great start and with KERS was alwatys goign to make places in the run to the first turn

From the footage I was watching Massa didn't use KERS in the run to the first corner.

[Beer Baron]

I'm not saying Mark didn't race well, he did but I think Vettel did better considering circumstances. I don't know what makes you think the Ferrari of Massa was 'massively slower'.... Have you seen aggregate times of the 3 practise sessions and also qualifying times/weights...?

I don't need to see any other times apart from these. vettel was glued to the back of massa. as soon as massa let him past he picked up 2 seconds a lap+. so massa was obviously holding him up was a lot slower than vettel. and isn't that your argument of how vettel drove a great race? that he was held up by a slower ferrari? so yeah. massa was a lot slower, and vettel needed to pass him to make his strategy work. webber made his work. vettel didn't make his work.

don't get me wrong, vettel is a great driver. but he drove an ordinary race. and sure with hindsight you can say webbers strategy helped and it worked out. but as I said vettel was given the same strategy as the other front guys apart from rubens (3 stope) and webber (long middle). and like roy said, perhaps they did try to get him away from massa with stops but ferrari just shadowed them. either way he did bugger all to improve things. webber on the other hand did everything necessary to make the most of what he had.

you can all say wow vettel was so fast in the last 5 laps. well whoop de doo! he should have made a move and been fast for the last 25 laps. then perhaps he could have got back some positions. he let himself get stuck behind a car that was 2s a lap slower. sure it happens to everyone from time to time, but for it would have been a great drive if he'd done something about it. just sitting there and then saying look at me i'm now 2s quicker in the last 5 laps doesn't do anything for me. he was bloody lucky massa pulled over otherwise it would have been 5th.

[dezz]

Lucky i go for mclaren

Yeah, cause they did real well...

In my eyes Vettel had a shocker!

Webber raced like a 'champion'

Vettel had a shocker, and finished 1 place behind him. Worst case would've been 2 places if the Ferrari rig did its job...

well if vettel is so bloody good then why couldn't he pass he massively slower ferrari which was basically coasting to save fuel?

vettel was ordinary. he did nothing special all race. he just went backwards from the first moment. webber made his way up for once.

Massa wasn't coasting the whole time he had Vettel behind him. He was pushing as hard as he could to hold his position, and was obviously pissed off to be told he has to save fuel, to which he replied 'What can I do?', which obviously shows he was still defending his position..Not coasting as yet.

And again, you're saying Vettel was ordinary, yet he finished 4th, and Mark has 1 of his best races ever and finishes only 1 (almost 2) spot ahead...A great result for Mark no doubt, but nothing spectacular when put in that context

I have to seriously question that. How can you say a driver doesnt call the strategy? He is the one in the car telling them what tyres are doing, how the car feels. I have never heard that the pit call the strategy exclusively.

Look at the Brawn drivers, neither of them chose their strategy. They did what they were told and the rest is history.

[TALBO]

he picked up 2 seconds a lap+.

So that had nothing to do with the fact Massa HAD to conserve fuel to get him to the end of the GP?