2009 F1 Season

[Marco-R34GTT]

F@RK!!!!

[Kinks]

well that was predictable enough

Yup.

All the teams got played. They have agreed to take an axe to their costs over the next couple of years so while there is no "cap", Mosley has still gotten his way by getting more teams into F1 and getting the manufacturers to spend less money. Mosley was planning to retire anyway so he loses no face by saying he'll step down in October. Ecclestone still gets to do what he has always done. The agreement appears to have restored balance, it is certainly not in FOTA's favour however FOTA are now a legitimate entity that can't be ignored.

On the other side of the coin a breakaway series would have been a massive undertaking for FOTA and in addition to going racing, they would have to deal with the administration and finances of a racing league. I reckon Bernie would have defected if it happened, but even so it would have taken a few years for the new series to settle and then pick up momentum.

I was hopeful that FOTA would break away but F1 has always been a case of "say whatever it takes to get your way". While all parties are busy swinging their dicks and talking things up, you can't trust a word of anything. This has certainly been shown to be the case with many FOTA people saying "doesn't matter what FIA say we are leaving" and now they've done a double backflip and agreed to stay.

[sh@un]

and wasn't the whole KERS thing a waste of time- cost anyone running it any chance of race competitiveness (so every race for McLaren)

what a joke

[TALBO]

AFAIK, FOTA were never completely against the cost reduction measures the FIA wanted to introduce. Instead they were against it happening in 2010 (all at once) rather than gradually reducing costs over the course of the next few seasons.

[ctjet]

lol

Edited June 26, 2009 by ctjet

[ctjet]

oh wow

imagine Ron Dennis replaced Max

without a doubt, the greatest/funniest single moment of 09

that would just about kill the geriatric screwball. the hate coming back to bite you on the arse like that... thats my xmas wish

/dreams

[djr81]

Yup.

All the teams got played. They have agreed to take an axe to their costs over the next couple of years so while there is no "cap", Mosley has still gotten his way by getting more teams into F1 and getting the manufacturers to spend less money. Mosley was planning to retire anyway so he loses no face by saying he'll step down in October. Ecclestone still gets to do what he has always done. The agreement appears to have restored balance, it is certainly not in FOTA's favour however FOTA are now a legitimate entity that can't be ignored.

On the other side of the coin a breakaway series would have been a massive undertaking for FOTA and in addition to going racing, they would have to deal with the administration and finances of a racing league. I reckon Bernie would have defected if it happened, but even so it would have taken a few years for the new series to settle and then pick up momentum.

I was hopeful that FOTA would break away but F1 has always been a case of "say whatever it takes to get your way". While all parties are busy swinging their dicks and talking things up, you can't trust a word of anything. This has certainly been shown to be the case with many FOTA people saying "doesn't matter what FIA say we are leaving" and now they've done a double backflip and agreed to stay.

There is nothing inherently wrong with trying to reduce the amount of money manufacturers have to tip into the sport to keep their teams competitive. Think about any or all of them. Can you really see Toyota wanting to keep spending hundreds of millions of dollars per year just to trail around with the Force India mob? Or the same for Renault? Or BMW?

As far as public pronouncements from the F1 teams & the FIA there is a simple rule to apply:

Nothing is as it appears & almost none of it is even remotely close to the truth.

[Beer Baron]

well no matter what you spend it's a bargain if your winning and a rip off if you're loosing. the problem comes when you do the latter for many years with none of the former. then people tend to pull out.... (honda?).

[djr81]

well no matter what you spend it's a bargain if your winning and a rip off if you're loosing. the problem comes when you do the latter for many years with none of the former. then people tend to pull out.... (honda?).

Yeah I am yet to be convinced it is a bargain for some. Toyota is the classical example. Say Glock & Trulli come good & wipe the floor with everyone. Are you going to merch up then head down to the local Toyota dealership & buy yourself a Camry Sportivo? Nah, me neither.

On the flip side is Ferrari who can trot out any number of crap F1 cars & yet make squillions selling Ken & Barbie "Ferrari" Motorhomes....

Edited June 26, 2009 by djr81

[Roy]

Honda and in my opinion any Japanese manufacturer should not be directly responsible for the running of a F1 team. Sorry, Honda were great engine suppliers, great backers or BAR and with Prodrive on board they started to enjoy success. They boot Prodrive and go it alone to spend years in the wilderness. They again relinquish technical control to a guy like Brawn and they turn the corner.

Japanese just ont seem to be able to be leaders in design and managment. They seem to be brilliant at the grind of engineering things to perfection, but it seems they need somebody else to do the steering.

Same is 100% trues with Toyota. If Toyota just jumped on board with Williams i have no doubt that Williams have the management and some technical skill whilst Toyota have the backing and untapped technical ability that just needs better leadership and direction. I hope Toyota throw in behind Williams as its the only way either team will be able to be regular top 3 teams with every 3rd or 4th season gunning for titles

[djr81]

Honda and in my opinion any Japanese manufacturer should not be directly responsible for the running of a F1 team. Sorry, Honda were great engine suppliers, great backers or BAR and with Prodrive on board they started to enjoy success. They boot Prodrive and go it alone to spend years in the wilderness. They again relinquish technical control to a guy like Brawn and they turn the corner.

Japanese just ont seem to be able to be leaders in design and managment. They seem to be brilliant at the grind of engineering things to perfection, but it seems they need somebody else to do the steering.

Same is 100% trues with Toyota. If Toyota just jumped on board with Williams i have no doubt that Williams have the management and some technical skill whilst Toyota have the backing and untapped technical ability that just needs better leadership and direction. I hope Toyota throw in behind Williams as its the only way either team will be able to be regular top 3 teams with every 3rd or 4th season gunning for titles

I agree with you with regard to Toyota. Honda I have always regarded as being the best of the Japanese manufacturers at design & manufacture. World class. Look at their record in bikes as an example.

I think the problem is that there is so much money needed to be tipped in by the car companies (ie engines & cash) that they think there is better value in doing it all themselves. I guess it has worked ok for Renault but Mercedes Benz has done the best of anyone.

[Roy]

How many Moto GP teams are truly Japanese? I suspect they have plenty of Japanese technical people and money, but the management and design strategy is mostly from Europeans in the teams??????????????????

[djr81]

How many Moto GP teams are truly Japanese? I suspect they have plenty of Japanese technical people and money, but the management and design strategy is mostly from Europeans in the teams??????????????????

Dunno.

Mostly motor racing expertise comes out of the UK & Italy. Even then it is mostly England. It is about the only thing the Poms do well. Although looking at the scores from the cricket last night I should watch my words.

[Kinks]

There is nothing inherently wrong with trying to reduce the amount of money manufacturers have to tip into the sport to keep their teams competitive. Think about any or all of them. Can you really see Toyota wanting to keep spending hundreds of millions of dollars per year just to trail around with the Force India mob? Or the same for Renault? Or BMW?

Oh for sure, even a winning F1 team would rather win spending $40 million than spending $400 million. But even if Ferrari win spending $40m then other teams will want to spend $50m to try and beat them. The big problem FOTA had with the FIA's proposal was that the cap would come in next year and would involve almost constant audits by the FIA to make sure the budgets were being kept. Most teams took offense to the intrusive nature of this process, which should give you some idea about how serious they really are about capping their costs. I think the budget restraint is just a facade, they will find ways to bury their spending.

Ultimately F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport and if you have soccer players being signed for 65 million euros a season for ONE PLAYER then why can't an F1 team spend big as well? It's like anything, you never get the best of the best for $2.50.

[izataskyrine?]

and wasn't the whole KERS thing a waste of time- cost anyone running it any chance of race competitiveness (so every race for McLaren)

what a joke

KERS is compulsory from 2010 so its an advantage for teams to run it and get there heads around it early really. But yeah have to agree, yet another half-assed, bad call by max mosley. The idea was to turn f1 more 'green' but it was poorly timed with the world financial crisis and ideas of trying to lower costs in f1.

Personaly i cant wait to see mosley go, he is a blight on formula one, and so is bernie eccelstonne

Yeah I am yet to be convinced it is a bargain for some. Toyota is the classical example. Say Glock & Trulli come good & wipe the floor with everyone. Are you going to merch up then head down to the local Toyota dealership & buy yourself a Camry Sportivo? Nah, me neither.

On the flip side is Ferrari who can trot out any number of crap F1 cars & yet make squillions selling Ken & Barbie "Ferrari" Motorhomes....

Well toyota are the no.1 car manufacturer in the world, so id say they know what there doing two words, brand association

[djr81]

Oh for sure, even a winning F1 team would rather win spending $40 million than spending $400 million. But even if Ferrari win spending $40m then other teams will want to spend $50m to try and beat them. The big problem FOTA had with the FIA's proposal was that the cap would come in next year and would involve almost constant audits by the FIA to make sure the budgets were being kept. Most teams took offense to the intrusive nature of this process, which should give you some idea about how serious they really are about capping their costs. I think the budget restraint is just a facade, they will find ways to bury their spending.

Ultimately F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport and if you have soccer players being signed for 65 million euros a season for ONE PLAYER then why can't an F1 team spend big as well? It's like anything, you never get the best of the best for $2.50.

Actually the issue is different to what you have described.

Take the case any random team.

At present they can spend as much as they can get. If the business is profitable at those expenditure elvels then a budget cap will simply remove a very large amount of the worth of the company. How are they going to slug sponsors if the same sponsors know they can only spend $100 million a year, for example?

The other issue is how do you price a component made in house. You can't go down to Woolworths & get a price check from isle 5 for a secondary circuit bypass valve CNC machined from the heart of a solid forging of unobtainium, now can you?

[Kinks]

^^ good points, it could be debated that with less expenditure the requirement for sponsorship goes down as well, but maybe sponsors don't care about how much the team spends. They do care if it wins or not and how much air time their logos get on TV. However if F1 as a brand is diluted because they are penny-pinching and TV ratings go down as people lose interest then the sponsors will definitely go elsewhere.

Pricing for components made in-house shouldn't be harder than components sourced outside - you still have to buy the raw materials from somewhere and employ somebody to manufacture it. Those costs are easily traceable as money flows. However if a company has a lot of manufacturing equipment which depreciate in value over time then you have a more interesting time trying to work out what the actual expenditure is!

[BezerkR32]

im not sure if you can depend on TV, i watched Lewis Hamiton run around in 16th for at least 10 mins last week when the battle was up-front between MW and Rubens, WTF.

^^ good points, it could be debated that with less expenditure the requirement for sponsorship goes down as well, but maybe sponsors don't care about how much the team spends. They do care if it wins or not and how much air time their logos get on TV. However if F1 as a brand is diluted because they are penny-pinching and TV ratings go down as people lose interest then the sponsors will definitely go elsewhere.

Pricing for components made in-house shouldn't be harder than components sourced outside - you still have to buy the raw materials from somewhere and employ somebody to manufacture it. Those costs are easily traceable as money flows. However if a company has a lot of manufacturing equipment which depreciate in value over time then you have a more interesting time trying to work out what the actual expenditure is!

[TALBO]

Afaik we get the same feed as the british do, so they're always going to be focussing in on the pom drivers. I'd imagine that other countries have different feeds focussing most of their attention elsewhere

[djr81]

Well toyota are the no.1 car manufacturer in the world, so id say they know what there doing two words, brand association

Well brand association can work - but only up to a point. I would suggest that the link between what Toyota sells on the car lot & F1 is too tenuous to be useful.

On the other hand rallying (the sport Toyota gave up to go into F1) has done wonders for any number of manufacturers - Ford, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Citroen, Lancia.....