Police Plan To Seize Cars From P-plate Speeders

[QUICKY]

^^^^^^ best post of the thread.

everyone is so quick to have a hissy fit when a p-plater is caught racing/speeding or is involved in an accident, yet the majority of road deaths are not p-platers. also, you think bringing tougher penalties like confiscating someones car for 3 months is going to teach them a lesson? they wont have their licence in that time, so why in gods name would they care whether their car is sitting in their garage for that time, or in sum impound. personaly, since my car is not fully insured, ide prefer to have it sitting in the impound .

[scathing]

Firstly.....why are you here?

isnt this a "Forum"? where people share their thoughts and 2 cents?!

Hence my sharing my thoughts on your thoughts.

if youd notice, most peoples post in here are usless comments anyways.

Yes, I have.

anyhow...by you being a smart ass and talking shit on this forum, would that really help you as a person???

Actually, I'm trying to help you as a person.

at the end of the day......tougher Penalties, is the way to go. especially for P platers as they are inexperienced and most are young.

So your solution to counter the behaviour of people without experience is to deny them experience?

You also pretty much failed to directly respond to anything I brought up. There's probably a good chance that you can't be helped, if your evident allergy to education is anything to go by.

why? due to the statistcs and yes..FACTS... that shows most MALES on Ps are the causes of racing and death.

I never denied it (although your complete lack of referencing source material makes your claims unsubstantiated and therefore unreliable). Where your opinion and mine differs is what to do about it.

leme guess...your one of those "driver education!" Faries?

My opinion on what should be done is a bit more complex than that. Simple solutions are good for simple minds. In a nutshell, I think:

1. Sensible and applicable vehicle restrictions

2. Driver education (not merely driving skills, but behaviour and consequences)

3. A less aggressive attitude from the public and law enforcement (history shows that you get better results from the carrot than the stick, and "persecuted" people tend to lash out even more stupidly)

4. More accessible places for enthusiast drivers to legally and safely drive their cars in such a manner (closing Oran Park is a big negative, in my opinion) and so a cultural shift that not everyone who likes cars is bad

5. Forcing convicted hoons where an accident occurs to do community service, where they have to assist the ambulance services which means they also get to visit all those crash scenes and have to see first hand the consequences of hooning

6. That aforementioned conviction will also record a loss of license (but not necessarily impounding the cars), and the penalty for driving during the suspension period being a jail term rather than just extensions to the suspension. After the jail term they can recommence their suspension and do community service for the duration.

There's more detail than that, but I'm not really in the mood to flesh it out more than that. You get the idea. A jail term should be a last resort for serial offenders who do something serious, not straight off the bat for someone who happens to be speeding with no context on where or when.

Every experience that a person has that they can take something away from is a learning experience, which makes it an education. People who don't learn anything are inevitably doomed to repeat their mistakes. As such, yeah, technically I support driver education as a theory - I just don't think any exist that meet the criteria as a course everyone should have to do to obtain their license.

If you have a look at the mood here and on other car forums, most think street racers are complete f**kwits. However, the fact that anyone who happens to like driving gets tarred with the same brush means we have to defend ourselves against attacks that don't actually apply to us.

Taking someone's car away and just letting them sit there does sweet f**k nothing to fixing the problem. When they inevitably get their license back if they don't know its wrong they'll just do it again. The fact that almost 3/4 of people who go to prison end up back there again is proof enough that just letting people idly stew about their predicament without being shown a better way end up doing it again.

[turbo_brian]

The NSW government has a great plan, that wasimplemented just yesterday witha couple of racers.

Instead of impounding the cars, having to supply land, have security for the cars, etc, they clamp the cars in the offender's property. Liability remains with the offenders, they can still start the engine once a week, but the car is clamped and can not be moved from it's location.

As for the views of P-platers, import drivers, etcI support the police in what theya re trying to do, but sometimes they go the wrong way about it.

OT, 2007 at Bathurst 1000 races, the police came in hard-core, went from the average 5 or 10 walkign around on Sulman/Reid camp grounds to over 500 police, sniffer dogs, riot squad, water tank, etc. People where being evicted from the event for things as little as piggy squealing noises and swearing.

On the Saturday night, it came close to a full fledged riot occuring because of the tension between bogan campers and police 'law enforcement'.

2008 at the Bathurst 1000 races saw the same number of Police, but this time, the uniformed officers where polite, talked to the campers, socialised, and where VERY relaxed with everything. It was actually pleasant to have the officers around, there was no tension, no issues, and everyone had a good time. There was still a few rebel hooligans that went too far, and where evicted, but come trouble night, there was no major issues other than a few fire crackers let off.

The difference wasn't in the numbers, the target outcome, or the plan of attack, it was in the manner at which the police presented themselves to the public, the attitude taken.

I haven't had an Australian released carfor the last 7 years, I have had a JDM Mazda 626, a Nissan 180sx, a Toyota Soarer TT, and currently an R32 Nissan GTR. In this time, I have been pulled over 5 times for 'RBT'and booked twice, once for a burnout, and once for talking on a mobile phone (both my own fault).

I am not a P-plater, so I dont get 'targeted' for my lack of driving experience, but I do drive an import, yet still dont get targeted.

Something I also find interesting, years ago Qld law did not require drivers to display their L's or P's, yet P-plater drivers where still the highest number of drivers booked and involved in accidents (this information based on discussions with Redcliffe Police when I was last in Brisbane over the New Year Period), so you can not tellme that police where simply targeting P-platers back int he days when no P-plates where displayed, yet they where still noticably more involved in all the things they are trying tostop.

I agree with Alan, if the government wants to tackle this problem, more driver skills AND attitude education is required, similar to what happens in USA, we should introduce driver education into 10th grade schooling (driving is probably the most used and most valuable skill someone in Australia can be given, and an actual life skill, not a useless bit of information).

Also give the younger people and enthusiasts placesto actually go so they can better their skills, race, and get off the public streets to experience what the car can do and how to handle it.

Sydney used to have Amaroo Raceway, this was closed for land development and housing, so we had Oran Park. Guess what, Oran park is now gone, re-zoned for housing development and sold off, leaving us with only Eastern Creek. Sydney used to have 3 places to go, now it only has 1 (unless your willing to travel long periods of time).

Infrastructure.

B.

[SHANE666]

"P-Plate speeding" shouldnt be an issue. Full Stop. Everyone speeds. Why are P-Platers targeted?

[DaGr81]

Ok the article says two fto drivers launched it at the lights and were caught by officers at high speed who were behind them at lights I think that was blown out of proportion by the media.

What really happened.

1. They launched at the lights and hit the limmit the police pulled them up and acused them of street racing

2. They couldn't have been at high speed they are in ftos 0 - 100 in 7 I think maybe slower by the time they launched and went over the limmit the cops would have been all over their asses for sure

But:

They could have waited to see who won LOL or to see if they can get them with over 45, but I doubt this bit because the moment they went over being on their ps they would have been pulled over for it

What do you think....

[SHANE666]

Every law-maker who has a problem with "P-Plate speeding" are idiots.

I just dont see any equality on our roads in regards to the so called 'issue' at hand.

[eeiko321]

Every law-maker who has a problem with "P-Plate speeding" are idiots.

I just dont see any equality on our roads in regards to the so called 'issue' at hand.

ive read a few of your past post....

the way you think is very very narrow......

pretty much....."im a p-plater...they hate me? f**k the world!" kinda attitude...

your right.....anyone speeds, i see alot of women speed also.. but P-platers really do lack the experience on the roads...

experience comes in time.....you cant just think....oh the world hates me.....coz im a p-plater...f**k them.....

you gotta think about "WHY" this is all happening....yes the media does like to focus attention....thats how they make buisness.....

i understand where your coming from on that one.....its just equivalent to Gun Laws in AUST.

we seriously have f**k all gun crimes in AUST comapred to US for e.g.. how often do you hear someone getting shot in syd?

and we all know it is a daily occourance in US in some areas.

but as soon as one gun crime happens in NSW...its not tolerated and all you hear is.. "tighten tighten tighten, gun laws..." seriously we have not SEEN what is called CRIME here....

the gun laws were introduced in the late 80's at the milperra massacre....involving the death of 15 Bikies and a young girl.

how often does this happen in the USA?!

anyhow statistics show young males especially are more likely to be unable to control themselves when the time comes they do so and cause an accident in the end.

why do you think people focus on the p-platers?.....even insurance companies do that....why do you think every insurance companies freak when they hear your under 21!?

im not saying your not doing the wrong thing....you as a p-plater could be a good driver... but its what the majority do to ruin it for others.

so you can thank the rest of the P-platers for "boosting" up the insurance premiums.

Edited January 14, 2009 by eeiko321

[eeiko321]

"OK, I can't hold the sarcasm up any longer. Trying to pretend to agree with your nonsense is actually hurting my brain."

"I guess people just aren't as brilliant as you, and too reliant on irrelevant details like "facts" to come to conclusions"

"...the guys you're heaping shit on is the fact that they can afford to buy their way out of trouble."

"eople as smart and "geeky" as yourself would immediately put the correlation between people not being allowed to drive "high performance" vehicles and increasing the death toll as a clear indication that the system is working well. Just like how recidivism rates have gone up in line with prison sentence increases.

"

"You also pretty much failed to directly respond to anything I brought up. There's probably a good chance that you can't be helped, if your evident allergy to education is anything to go by."

Firstly let me tell you this...

i dont mind sharing my thoughts and having a debate here with you about this..

after all, this is a forum as you agreed.... there is no RIGHT or WRONG in result. its ones opinion and personal thoughts

so from what you posted previously above, i dont see that as debating.

trying to intimidate me, mock, patronise or just being a stuck up rude arrogant asshole doesnt help our conversation.

anyhow back into the topic.

look, i think "Experience" isnt everything........

why?,...because i was once a P-plater also..back in 1999 before all this restrictions and p-plates. i love cars as much as anyone else here.

i have never been caught racing or hooning...some of what the P-platers these days do....i would have never been game. so hence ive never lost my liscence.

yes of course P-platers lack the expereince of someone whos driven alot longer....but experience comes in time...

like any of us.....we were all p-platers once.

but refering to what i said before about Restrictions to power is a VERY good idea. yes anyone can lose it in anything powerful..so saying P-platers lack the experince....then how about a lacked experience p-plater in a HIGH performance car? would that mix?

Just like motorcycles... when i got my P's years ago..there was always a restriction to 250cc for L's and P's.

yes at the time when i was on my P's i was thinking "omg broz itz bullshit couz, wulla i swear i want a sick Yamaha R1 broz...hate the law couz!"*windge Windge WIndge*

in the end, i appreciate the law for that.....i wouldve killed myself on a bike.

you agreed that certain punishments should be brought in...and i dont object to that.

its not up to you on how the law changes......it will all come to effect in the end.

just one bit at a time.. first the 3 years p-plates, then the Curfew, talks of crushing cars...(and apparently ive heard rumours of cars already been crushed in serious offences)

now a confiscating for simple speeding. then who knows what else maybe raising the driving age?

your guess is as good as mine... but in the meantime, have some popcorn while we wait and watch more people die on the roads.....

[Someguy]

Not that long ago, I had a cop pull me over.. he informed me of these new laws (Not just P-Platers.. but street racing as well). He informed me that he "liked my car, if I do anything wrong he will arrange for it to be confiscated and I wont get a chance to buy it back at auction". I felt somewhat intimidated, but by knowing the police system, he would have done a check prior to pulling me over to find a pretty clean record. This lead me to believe that this system would be open to abuse, cops could get access to nice cars really cheaply, especially if they know the auctioneers who will deal with the 2nd round confiscation.

I've even heard of a case where a car stereo was removed from a car that was taken in newcastle a few years back. It was nasty stuff.

I don't mind police getting powers to perhaps sway a few people that might be scared of the law and consequences. I think they have made some ground but most P-Platers are now buying $2000 or less cars to drive around in until they are off their P's. These cars are typically less safe, less maintained (as they are going to scrap or thrash it to death) and loosing these cheaper cars isn't a big problem. I don't see many P'platers on the coast in anything 10years or less on average. They probably wont have P-PLates on when they are doing it anyway,

If P-Platers could buy their dream cars, they would care more about this law... those lucky enough to have something expensive to loose it for a short period whilst they probably will be suspended from driving... still not big enough.. sadly there will always be someone silly enough to jump in the car, floor it and kill themselves and others.. Anything that would be effective would have to lashing in the main street and parents can't even smack their kids in public anymore... So I think ultimately this type of thing just serves a "we are doing something about it" to cover the voters...

[SHANE666]

Jamie, point taken. Thanks for your thoughts and reply.

I do agree with the statistics. I had an argument with my friend today who pulled out from the RTA that 15% of drivers on the roads are p platers, and they account for 36% of fatalities on the road.

In regards to whether cars should be confiscated or not. Personally, I think the current system is suffice enough. If we keep comnig back to this everytime a P Plater kills another individual, we will eventually get to the point where P-platers will have VERY limited rights on the road relative to today's laws. I can't think of any at the moment, but im sure there are better ways to address the 'issue.'

There's such a negative stigma towards P Platers in relatively nicer cars. Theres so much "How does she afford that....He sells drugs...I wonder how many people he killed to drive that..." The media doesn't help at all as well.

One more thought - us so called 'Generation Y' apparently have a "we are untouchable attitude" (which I strongly agree wiith) which could be associated with the cause of the forementioned statistics.

[scathing]

Ok the article says two fto drivers launched it at the lights and were caught by officers at high speed

They couldn't have been at high speed they are in ftos 0 - 100 in 7 I think maybe slower by the time they launched and went over the limmit the cops would have been all over their asses for sure

But:

They could have waited to see if they can get them with over 45

Dude, they were FTOs.

The cops' shift would have been over before they managed to hit those speeds.

[scathing]

I'll start off by apologising for the combative attitude.

but refering to what i said before about Restrictions to power is a VERY good idea. yes anyone can lose it in anything powerful..so saying P-platers lack the experince....then how about a lacked experience p-plater in a HIGH performance car? would that mix?

I'm all for the appropriate car restrictions, but unfortunately the pollies just want something simple because they're not smart enough to deal with the complexities of real life.

The Victorian government screwed the pooch first by implementing a power/weight ratio cap. Of course, they realised that banning P platers from driving Australia's best selling car, the V6 Commodore, would have been political suicide. So they set the ratio accordingly.

Unfortunately for them, WRXs had a worse power/weight than the Commodore and so they could still be driven.

NSW decided that they could out-stupid Victoria and just said "No forced induction, no V8s". So kids couldn't drive a supercharged 112kW/1500kg Mercedes C200K with its 5 star NCAP crash rating, a billion safety feature TLAs, and traction control that can't be switched off. Same with modern Saabs. P platers also couldn't drive the ultra economical 600ish cc Smart ForTwo or Suzuki Cappuccino, or any modern Saab.

However they could still drive the more powerful 150kW V6 Mercedes C240, a 140kW/800kg Lotus Elise R or a 180kW/1100kg S2000. Turbo diesels were also exempt, so P platers can still drive the Toureg R50...with its 8.0L V10 twin turbo diesel engine.

The typical bogan blindness of the NSW pollies that thinks fast cars only come with 8's or blowers also ignored the fact that every normally aspirated Porsche 911, the NSX, and BMW M3 would have been P plate legal until everyone with half a brain made fun of their stupidity and they added more restrictions.

It took them a few years to take the ForTwo and Cappuccino off the banned list, but those ultra-safe and pretty slow Euro cars are still banned.

Your modern fast car also has better handling, braking and safety features than your cooking model econobox. It honestly didn't surprise me that P plater deaths increased after the restrictions were introduced. Pushing people out of cheap but good handling cars like R32s and S13s meant they were stuck driving wallowing Falcodores or nuggety hatchbacks.

Basically, I agree with the principle of car restrictions but I think the actual rules implemented are a joke.

Just like motorcycles... when i got my P's years ago..there was always a restriction to 250cc for L's and P's.

in the end, i appreciate the law for that.....i wouldve killed myself on a bike.

Absolutely. That has saved lives.

The NSW government has recently removed the 250cc restriction. There's no displacement cap, but there still is a power/weight cap. The fact that people can now ride VFR500s and the like means they're no longer on bikes where you have to wring the tits out of the engine to go anywhere, and making bikes easier to ride also makes them safer.

its not up to you on how the law changes......

As a citizen of a country that claims to be democratic and free, I believe it should be. Not just me, obviously, but you know what I mean.

Back on the original topic, I don't think that just taking cars away from people (regardless of age) and just telling them "it's bad, m'kay? You shouldn't do it because.....it's bad". They need to know why. They need to see the possible consequences.

Punishment is required to hammer the lesson home, but there has to be a lesson there. That's the difference between discipline and abuse.

People also need to be given a legal outlet. I'll admit to slightly exceeding the speed limit on occasion, and going for drives, but generally after a track day I'm too knackered and over being behind the wheel to drive that hard for days afterwards. Having to replace all my worn out consumables also keeps the car off the road and forces me to drive gently too, but at least my car is off the road for a good reason and not bad.

Between watching people die, or get air lifted to hospital with broken limbs, in car accidents and enjoying my sports car on the few race tracks we have anywhere near Sydney has done far more to slow me down than the infringements I've copped from the police.

[PIG747]

Sydney used to have Amaroo Raceway, this was closed for land development and housing, so we had Oran Park. Guess what, Oran park is now gone, re-zoned for housing development and sold off, leaving us with only Eastern Creek. Sydney used to have 3 places to go, now it only has 1 (unless your willing to travel long periods of time).

Infrastructure.

B.

The government doesn't care about this. That why they spent millions of dollars for a v8 supercar street race in homebush instead of upgrading eastern creek.

[DaGr81]

That's what I'm trying to point out there's no way they were at "high speed" but the cops would have busted then as soon as they were 5km over for sure

[eeiko321]

I'll start off by apologising for the combative attitude.

apologies accepted!

as i said, this is a forum...no right or wrong.... its about respect for one anothers thoughts and inputs.

im glad you agree with power restrictions from HP cars.

yes i had picked out the problem also from the start. as i read through the banned list years ago. i noticed all the V-8s were banned...including 1979 V-8 HOlden Kingswoods.

those things were carby and were slow as a slug. but banned due to being a V-8.

then you have cars like the Honda S2000 & Honda Integra Type-R. those Vtec things are amongst the FASTEST Natrually aspirated 4 cyls.

and compare that to the Old Kingswood.... the kingswood wont even SMELL those 2 hondas..in fact it would most likely lose to a modern Honda Jazz...

so s2000 are Legal due to being a N/A car but in saying that....they ban the Previous model BMW M3...which was a Natrually Aspirated 6cyl for being a High performance car.

bullshit isnt it?!

they should make up thier minds... as far as im concerned, the Type R are high performance vehicles in that sense... so if they are gonna ban them...then ban them all....why leave open a loop-hole?!

yes the 250CC on motorcycles L & ps was removed because people were riding 2-stroke 250s.. e.g Suzuki RGV & Aprillia & Honda RS250s.

those bikes actually keep up with 600cc bikes in thier era due to the 2-stoke powerband.

but yeah they are not prohibited.

yes well there are 2 honda bikes that look identical....the RVF400 & VFR400....

im pretty sure the RVF400 is the legal one....

putting a p plater into a highperfomance car is no different to putting a rider p-plater on an GSXR-1000.

Edited January 15, 2009 by eeiko321

[eeiko321]

Jamie, point taken. Thanks for your thoughts and reply.

There's such a negative stigma towards P Platers in relatively nicer cars. Theres so much "How does she afford that....He sells drugs...I wonder how many people he killed to drive that..." The media doesn't help at all as well.

thanks.

but yeah you cant just relate everything to just p-platers......for what you commented there....

I'm sure you have heard that people think middle eastern people driving MERCS and M3s etc.... a criticised as "Drug dealers"

and Asian drivers driving prestige euro cars "must be doing something dodgy"?

think about it champ.....when people see a young Arab man in a BMW M3 over 120,000$ with a baseball cap driving in lakemba..... what do the narrow minded people think?

In regards to whether cars should be confiscated or not. Personally, I think the current system is suffice enough. If we keep coming back to this every time a P Plater kills another individual, we will eventually get to the point where P-platers will have VERY limited rights on the road relative to today's laws. I can't think of any at the moment, but I'm sure there are better ways to address the 'issue.'

like i said before, the media exaggerates and makes things into dramas....thats their business & profits. and like the gun laws two... its getting re-reviewed again..

when was the last time you heard something severe with guns in Syd?! we have several small groups that claim to be gangs and few bikie chapters..but crime is nearly un heard of.

in US, there are ghettos that you are unable to walk through if you do not fit in.

i think personally we Australians are windgers....

the whole world has alot of things issues alot worse than us...but yet, we are so intolerant when something happens.

what they've brought on or bringing on....is not the end of the world you see. you will eventually obtain a full licence. but in the mean time this is try TRY and help people follow road rules.

One more thought - us so called 'Generation Y' apparently have a "we are untouchable attitude" (which I strongly agree with) which could be associated with the cause of the fore mentioned statistics.

I'm not sure what you are trying to imply there......

but if it really is what i think you are trying to indicate....

well i really have no comment on that one..

[scathing]

yes the 250CC on motorcycles L & ps was removed because people were riding 2-stroke 250s.. e.g Suzuki RGV & Aprillia & Honda RS250s.

The Aprilia RS250 was banned due to its power/weight. For me, anyway. I can't remember if the power/weight limit included the rider, but since I'm a pretty small bastard I couldn't get one.

I fell in love with those things after seeing a guy riding one on the Old Pac and absolutely blitzing everyone.

At any rate, I'll probably have a massive long rant about P plater prohibitions at a later date in a column I write.

[bloodsword27]

limit to FWD, 1.3L carbies, no efi, no power windows, 13" rims and must have chrome hub caps...should make them stick out like sore thumbs

no real way to stop all this from happening in today's society other than to just prohibit driving all together...which really does make things alot harder

[eeiko321]

limit to FWD, 1.3L carbies, no efi, no power windows, 13" rims and must have chrome hub caps...should make them stick out like sore thumbs

no real way to stop all this from happening in today's society other than to just prohibit driving all together...which really does make things alot harder

well...i cant really agree with you there. it will work if they police it........and if they are serious about it, government funds it & the copz are serious.....

i pesonally think, whatever they will do....it will help at least a bit. and for every bit it helps.....some lives are saved....so what if its only lowered 37% or watever it was...

at least that 37% no one was killed. and within that percentage who knows ..it couldve been your father, your brother or sister that a P-plater or young driver crashed into & end up 6 foot under.

think about it, i recall 24 years ago when i was 3 years old...im pretty sure...there was no seatbelt rules..my father used to drive me when i was standing on the front seat.

he used to drive home pissed on the weekends.... none of that 60km/h road limit bullshit.... from memory, there was no proper limits on the street. (and lets not forget mobile phones werent invented then for them to prohibit that whilst driving)

and then they started bringing them in one by one....all that ive mentioned are heavy fines & can cause instant court case and even jail term.

as for anything,the only reason i can see where your coming from about no real 100% way of stopping it. only due to the fact that COPZ cant be everywhere at the same time.

for e.g as im typing this sat night 12:50am. i can guarantee you someone on sydney roads is drink driving as i type, and im sure someone is not wearing thier seatbelts.

you see plenty of people talk on the phone whilst driving.

but as i said....whaetever they will bring can help. anything is better than nothing.

[scathing]

i pesonally think, whatever they will do....it will help at least a bit. and for every bit it helps.....some lives are saved....so what if its only lowered 37% or watever it was...

at least that 37% no one was killed.

it couldve been your father, your brother or sister that a P-plater or young driver crashed into & end up 6 foot under.

Wrong way round, dude.

37% more P platers in NSW died in the year after car restrictions were introduced. Not 37% less.

That's 37% more fatalities as well, not just 37% more accidents. Since the vast majority of car accidents don't kill people, it would be a safe bet to say that more p platers crashed after the rules were brought in than before.

It's why I originally arced up when you said that the current banning policy has helped things. It didn't. Things got worse.

Hence why I think that the NSW government's simplistic determination of what constitutes a "safe" car for a young driver to drive is a complete joke. The rules have taken away good handling, safe to crash, cars while still leaving young drivers with plenty of death traps to pilot.

Philosophically I don't agree with the current passenger restrictions either. Instead of 4 idiots in 1 car all gee'd up to do something stupid (we are talking about fresh HSC graduates around this time of year), you have 4 idiots in 2 cars with stupidity in mind. When you've got 2 hoons and 2 cars, inevitably you've got a street race.

You can't have a race without at least 2 cars, and so these new restrictions have basically just made it more likely to happen.