Got Over 400kw Atw?

[zebra]

alchohol burns a lot slower than gasoline, hence you NEED to add timing, the extra heat comes from the different make up (hydrocarbons??) of the 2 fuels

[zebra]

just thinking of that Dan/Noel, have you tried adding a few degrees of timing, might lower the Egt's enough to help the turbo live

[The Dan]

Did it make it off the dyno?

Yeah it had been running for two days no problem on the street. Did (I think) 3 drag runs with pauses in between on the Saturday. We checked the spark plugs at the stop over and everything looked sweet - still does

Then Noel did two back to back drag runs and it died at the end of the second run

just thinking of that Dan/Noel, have you tried adding a few degrees of timing, might lower the Egt's enough to help the turbo live

Yeah there is 18degrees in places where 0 degrees used to be so I am told. The tuner has a lot of experience with E85 and Methanol.

[The Dan]

Plus the EGT's out of the runner were only 750.

It's when it got to the bottleneck at the end where we don't know what temps it was running.

[mico]

Don't falcons use the same gt35 with a 1.06 rear and make 400rwkw all day with a 4L motor without cooking them?

yer my falcons been running 500whp for years with the stock turb. 15psi bp98. the magic number for these is 19psi, turb will last 4ever at that boost or below on 98. they only rev to 6500 tho, e85 + high rpm and the .82 housing ....

[mico]

this may sound stoopid. but because of the extra heat e85 creates and considering its going to be a popular everyday fuel in the future, do u think some sort of water injection at the mouth of the collector on the manifold would ever work ? it works on the combustion side ?

[zebra]

No becasue the oxygen in the water after it evaporates will cause any flame front int the exhaust manifold to..well....make a very large bang.

[HYPED6]

Can any one point me to the information that says E85 gives a higher EGT than 98?

[Harey]

After some quick searching:

"You all really need to check you EGT when adjusting timing map with E85 because E85 burns much slower then gasoline you will almost certainly run very high EGT temperatures when you switch to E85.

When I started mapping for E85 I quickly saw the EGT rise to over 1100 degrees Celsius, we added more pre ignition timing and the temperature went down. I now have 32 degrees pre ignition on full load and about 870 degrees EGT.

Your piston rings or conrods will probably break before you hear knocking on E85 :-)"

From here: http://forum.nistune.com/viewtopic.php?f=7...623&start=0

"We have come to the conclusion that running an old truck technology TO4Z exhaust housing is probably part of the problem, and are upgrading to a GT series turbo (unfortunately as the TO4Z worked amazingly well) which apparently can withstand higher heat loads."

From here:

http://www.efi101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?...1e463c6bdd43846

[FineLine]

back from a few days r&r with the mrs. Interesting reading these last few days.

I dont have the answers. matter of fact i dont have any answers. I do know i am way tired of the 35r's shitting themselves and takin my engine with them. It gets old very very quickly. And if you think I'm tired of it spare a thought for Dan, I'm sure his heart sinks lower than mine every time the friggin turbo lets go.

The response from the turbo supplier has been abysmal. Whilst they openly admit we have made out turbo selection well within the guidelines of their criteria Their only recompence was an offer of "A very good deal" on a new turbo. Not happy Jan!

The next turbo to go on the car will not happen until we have exhausted every research avenue in an endevour to eliminate this bullshit. The only definite change atm will be an upsize from a t3 to a t4 split pulse flange. Will keep you posted when a final selection has been made.

[HYPED6]

After some quick searching:

"You all really need to check you EGT when adjusting timing map with E85 because E85 burns much slower then gasoline you will almost certainly run very high EGT temperatures when you switch to E85.

When I started mapping for E85 I quickly saw the EGT rise to over 1100 degrees Celsius, we added more pre ignition timing and the temperature went down. I now have 32 degrees pre ignition on full load and about 870 degrees EGT.

Your piston rings or conrods will probably break before you hear knocking on E85 :-)"

From here: http://forum.nistune.com/viewtopic.php?f=7...623&start=0

"We have come to the conclusion that running an old truck technology TO4Z exhaust housing is probably part of the problem, and are upgrading to a GT series turbo (unfortunately as the TO4Z worked amazingly well) which apparently can withstand higher heat loads."

From here:

http://www.efi101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?...1e463c6bdd43846

Most definatly that can be the case. The question is, Are the high EGT's from overly retarded timing? Or is it directly related to the fuel? What where the EGT's on pump gas?

Where are they measuring the EGT's. At the collector or out of the head?

Ill think you will find that is at the collector into the turbo. This is going to be your highest reading because of the high pressure area.

E85 directly does not cause High EGT's. Going from 98 to E85 a 100deg c drop in egts at higher power levels are not un common.

The slow burn rate of Ethanol. Is this the same "slow" burn rate as Methanol, or Elf race fuels? They both have amazing low EGT's so how would E85 run any differently?

I have seen many logs of different engines on differnent fuels from 98 to 109 to 98+Meth to 98+meth+Toulene to E85 and even straight methanol. E85 Does not always make more power, It does how ever have the lowest EGT's.

Edited November 19, 2010 by HYPED6

[Rolls]

Would increasing water/oil flow to the turbos do much for extending their cooling ability?

[mico]

Would increasing water/oil flow to the turbos do much for extending their cooling ability?

turbine wheels the problem, i thought water could cool it down ;(

[mico]

through the housing ?

[Rolls]

Oh, I thought it was the bearing cartridge.

[mico]

ah yeah your probably right sorry, i prob should read the whole thing.

[FineLine]

Yeah point taken its not a direct comparison but I understand the car we are talking about hasnt been doing laps and laps to bust the turbo either? Did it make it off the dyno?

Personally I think 20-22psi through a 1.06 housing will bring the temps down enough but I am not going to pay if it doesnt so I will be quiet.

The turbo had done 3/4 months of track work prior. That seems about the life expectancy of that combo.

[Rolls]

Is it as simple as getting a custom made bearing core that is just simply bigger and has more cooling capacity?

[Galois]

No becasue the oxygen in the water after it evaporates will cause any flame front int the exhaust manifold to..well....make a very large bang.

Hey Zeb, can you explain this please?

Are you referring to dissolved oxygen? Because surely the dissolved O2 wouldn't be significant compared to the O2 left in the exhaust gases after combustion.

And water itself doesn't break down into hydrogen and oxygen until 2000oC.

Water is a natural product of combustion:

(Ethanol) CH3CH2OH + 3.5O2 -> 2CO2 + 3H2O

Petrol is similar but a much larger and more complicated hydrocarbon.

Cheers

[Prue]

Hey Zeb, can you explain this please?

Are you referring to dissolved oxygen? Because surely the dissolved O2 wouldn't be significant compared to the O2 left in the exhaust gases after combustion.

And water itself doesn't break down into hydrogen and oxygen until 2000oC.

Water is a natural product of combustion:

(Ethanol) CH3CH2OH + 3.5O2 -> 2CO2 + 3H2O

Petrol is similar but a much larger and more complicated hydrocarbon.

Cheers

I was more refering to the rapidly expanding gas and the huge heat shock it would cause, like a 600-700deg exhasust manifold and then spray some cold water into it

Edit - oops still signed in to Prues account lol

Zebra