Police Correspondence

[Dohmar]

Funny thing is these new mods want nothing to do with this meeting, what sort of message is that sending out.

I cant agree here. Both Nightcrawler and sled have conflicts of interest, not to mention a full time job and a family. Its unfair to expect them to donate more time than they already spend.

Seriously. Its a forum. hardly anyone here is a financial donor to sau (myself included) so its pretty rich of anyone expecting anything from the mods. I'm glad Nene has the fortitude to follow this thru, and believe me shes doing it for the greater good. If thats not enough for you, then i'm wasting my words.

I'll help as much as I can, but I too have a job and a life. That will take priority.

-D

[RubyRS4]

Nene, you know better than most that I've had a gutful of some motives around here, but I got your back. If you need the extra numbers give me a holler!

[SLED]

I always thought a Mods job was to moderate a forum. As far as meetings or police notification of cruises go, I thought I made myself very clear on the matter a long time ago.

Whether anyone liked what Cubes had to say on the matter back then is irrelevant to me, but I like to look beyond the tip of my nose and could see where he was coming from......now, months down the road, he could easily come back here and say, "I told you so!" If you keep sticking your hand in the lion's den, eventually he bites........lol, what a snowball effect!

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for getting involved and making a difference if I can see any light at the end of the tunnel, but I also like to pick my battles.

If anyone thinks this is a negative attitude, then please tell me specifically what is the exact outcome of this meeting that you are seeking. If it's to get this fella to ease up on defecting vehicles (which is what has sparked this row & thread in the first place) then you will walk away sadly disappointed because North Tce make the rules, not this fella and not his Sarg.

[rad100]

ahmen sled...

i personally just want some general questions answered!

[RubyRS4]

Sometimes when the battle looks unpromising for a win, you still need to try. You never know.

I'm sure that was the thinking of a particular person you knew who passed away recently, who was responsible why Sled can be ridden on the road.

I've always set out to prove people wrong when "it can't be done". I've never had failures, only successes in how not to do things

BTW Pete, having a small gathering for a pool party maybe not this weekend but next. Kids are welcome. I'll give you more info if you're interested.

Edited January 14, 2009 by RubyRS4

[Carbon 34]

I second what Pete said !!!! well said

[Stagstock]

Nene, I think the best possible thing you could ask Neil for both our sake and his is. What does he expect from us out of this, not the other way around!

However I'm sure you would have asked him this anyway.

Just a thought.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Stagstock

[SLED]

BTW Pete, having a small gathering for a pool party maybe not this weekend but next. Kids are welcome. I'll give you more info if you're interested.

sorry it's a bit off topic but thanks Roo.........send me a PM whenever you're ready if you like.

EDIT: That's a good thought Mathew......or at least a good platform to start

[Nene260RS]

I'll compile a list of the questions i'm gonna ask. (i'll post em up in this thread)

It will be after the next few days though because i'm going for a promotion at work and i'll be stressin my little head off about that.

I'll email Neil on Monday to set the meeting up.

Thanks Roo, and everyone else for the input on the subject.

Heslo, i got your text, But my phone is having a spaz and won't send msgs. I'll text you tomorrow if it decides to work.

[ted180]

here's the issue, firstly as far as our cars being illegal, well so are majority of the cars on road, difference is our defects are chromed, polished or painted and easier to spot than cracks, rust and worn parts underneath ur average car. our cars are no more illegal than your average car, in fact a lot of the time less illegal if you were to put them through regency.

for years defects have been used to crack down on "high risk" groups of people, you pull over someone u suspect of being a hoon, but didnt catch them in the act, bang defect.

we arent actually requesting any special treatment, simply that we be treated like a normal citizen who doesnt have police constantly trying to defect them.

trust you to single out my post

[nisskid]

lol i cbf reading past the first page, and urs was the first post that had any substance to it that was short enough for me to bother reading it.

[Martin Donnon]

I agree with Ben.. i seem to be increasingly reading about inconsistent and unnecessary defects being handed out. Serious clarification to what is deemed as illegal and defetable items needs to happen. However, if someone does get defected for something obviously illegal, then they should just accept what happened and deal with it.

You want serious clarification? Then here's the facts straight from DOTARS the govenrning body.

If you modify your car in any way shape or form from the original test vehicle specification presented when compliance was granted for your series (Stagea, R32, R33 etc) then technically you are in breach and the vehicle is instantly defectable. This isnt something special for Skylines or imports but for any car wearing a number plate in the majority of the states and territories this country. This is Federal legislation, so winning over the hearts and minds of the local constabulary isn't going to change a thing. They have a job to do, and if you are in breach, then you will be pinged. It really is as simple as that. Remember the onus is on you to prove that the car complies. So how to do this?

Align yourself with a workshop that has a working relationship with DOTARS approved automotive engineers. The workshop performs the modification to your vehicle, and the engineer - for a fee of course - undertakes accredited testing to put forward the supporting paperwork to Regency Park here in SA showing that the relevant ADR standards are still met with the modification(s) in place. For example we (Willall) put in an emission testing facility using the same standard used at Regency (IM240) at great expense, but its a piece of equipment that allows us to mirror their results and give supporting evidence to an engineer. We also use this equipment to perform initial emissions testing on our GM Twin Turbo systems, some of which we have now had fully ADR approved and road legal on a 'type' basis (i.e. you buy a VE Commodore fit our kit, have an engineer check its the same as our original test car, and voila legally registered and insured)

What is needed then - and always has been - is not so much a truce with the Police, but a more responsible and informed approach by those that are modifying their cars. All of the facts re modification are there in black and white so there is no excuse....and personally although this sounds a bit harsh, the Police are performing a public service by handing out defects, some of the cars we see with snapped aftermarket coilovers, dangerous chassis/brake mods, and covered in second hand cheap junk is alarming and disturbing at best

Realise if you want to do it right, then be prepared to spend the money on engineering. If you dont want to do it right, then bloody well keep under the radar and avoid activities like organised cruises, which make mass defecting on non-engineered cars like shooting fish in a barrel. This is the way it is, and just as importantly the way it has always been.

[nisskid]

You want serious clarification? Then here's the facts straight from DOTARS the govenrning body.

If you modify your car in any way shape or form from the original test vehicle specification presented when compliance was granted for your series (Stagea, R32, R33 etc) then technically you are in breach and the vehicle is instantly defectable. This isnt something special for Skylines or imports but for any car wearing a number plate in the majority of the states and territories this country. This is Federal legislation, so winning over the hearts and minds of the local constabulary isn't going to change a thing. They have a job to do, and if you are in breach, then you will be pinged. It really is as simple as that. Remember the onus is on you to prove that the car complies. So how to do this?

Align yourself with a workshop that has a working relationship with DOTARS approved automotive engineers. The workshop performs the modification to your vehicle, and the engineer - for a fee of course - undertakes accredited testing to put forward the supporting paperwork to Regency Park here in SA showing that the relevant ADR standards are still met with the modification(s) in place. For example we (Willall) put in an emission testing facility using the same standard used at Regency (IM240) at great expense, but its a piece of equipment that allows us to mirror their results and give supporting evidence to an engineer. We also use this equipment to perform initial emissions testing on our GM Twin Turbo systems, some of which we have now had fully ADR approved and road legal on a 'type' basis (i.e. you buy a VE Commodore fit our kit, have an engineer check its the same as our original test car, and voila legally registered and insured)

What is needed then - and always has been - is not so much a truce with the Police, but a more responsible and informed approach by those that are modifying their cars. All of the facts re modification are there in black and white so there is no excuse....and personally although this sounds a bit harsh, the Police are performing a public service by handing out defects, some of the cars we see with snapped aftermarket coilovers, dangerous chassis/brake mods, and covered in second hand cheap junk is alarming and disturbing at best

Realise if you want to do it right, then be prepared to spend the money on engineering. If you dont want to do it right, then bloody well keep under the radar and avoid activities like organised cruises, which make mass defecting on non-engineered cars like shooting fish in a barrel. This is the way it is, and just as importantly the way it has always been.

The only thing i would say is, that wont stop a lot of police from defecting you. When it comes to defects SAPOL are practically boundless in their power. There have been plenty of people who have shown the officer engineering papers and been told they don't mean shit, and they don't, because the defect laws are too broad. Sure regency is a different story, but by that time you've taken a day off work, paid $130, had your car gone through with a fine tooth comb, possibly re-defected for petty stuff, and gone through all the inconvenience a defect brings such as having a car you can't drive (often been given less than a day to drive, sometimes less than an hour, sometimes no time at all), all for some petty issue or something which could quite possibly be legal.

Generally speaking regency is a head screw, even if your car is safe, hell only this year my car was off the road for about 3 months because of 3 consecutive false defects for legal parts, 1 minor, 1 police major, and 1 regency major. i couldnt beleive it. the funny part is i ended up passing regency with every single "defect" i had been done for in place for the inspection.

subsequently i lost my job. which made the task of scraping together $80 for 2nd inspection + $40 for permit even harder. at least i didnt have to take a day off work haha

Sure this bs doesnt happen all the time, but tbh it happening once is more than enough. I'd be genuinely interested if there was a way you could use the engineering papers to avoid a defect, but i just dont see how it's possible, the only people that seem to really credit engineering papers are regency, and by that time you've already gone through the bs, if you're lucky you will get an officer which will be reasonable and see the papers and let you on your way, but they usually aren't the people we have difficulties with, it's the few unreasonable officers who quite simple are out to get you (recoginising how lame and immature that sounds), and they will get you for what they can, knowing the full extent of their power.

[mid life crisis]

battling regency can be a pain as well when i built my ac cobra replica i had to argue and with the help of the engineneer that i did not not need to run a charchol canister on a lpg powered car only . took 7 months of paper work going back and forth notes from the gas converter the engineer there is no way you can hook one up to a gas conversion .

in the end regency gave me a exepmtion to run without one on the condition i run a air pump into the exaust and run 2 cat convertors . no ford v8 in australia run a air pump and i had too modify a gemini one to fit and cats do fark all on a lpg car .

despite a engineer telling them what was right they took it on themselves to make up rules as we went along .

cheers mid life crisis

[RubyRS4]

Martin, the definition of "modify" is too broad and means many things to different people. Fitting seat covers is a modification if you wanna look into it that far. Thats what we need presented at this meeting: what modifications are permitted before being deemed defectable? Even modifying a car to an Engineers Certificate is worth nothing nowdays.

I build all my projects with the assistance of an engineer. But an Engineers Certificate didn't stop two motorcycle cops defecting my car years ago. Because they were losing the battle, they did me for tyres (3 week old, excellent tread tryes!) and sent me to Regency! I bypassed this, went to a cop shop and they lifted the defect without fee. Confirming it was an unfair defect.

Truth is Martin, try to do the right thing and you still get screwed over. So we want this meeting to discuss why there are so many irregularities with defects.

Do you recall my 200B wagon with the SR20DE squeezed in and SC14 supercharger force feeding it? That was engineered. Passed the inpsection and road registered ... but I still had no faith in all that protecting me from defects. It was a good thing it looked totally stock on the outside. All my projects once complete were never altered further in anyway with the exception of tyres and oil change.

Edited January 14, 2009 by RubyRS4

[Tangles]

Stewy's story here (post 154) is why this meeting could be the start of something big, something important.

Look, i havent been pulled over, not even for breatho, in around EIGHT years.

& there are reasons for that Im sure.

But I want to support ppl like stewy here who have had a hard time, all for nothing, due to the misinformation that exists between adr rules, officials (law, police, regency) and the public; the end users. I really feel for rocky88 too...

here to help. Sled, hope you reconsider mate. One percisive comment or a little ingenious input could be just the thing that ensures cars like Vu (air filter), stewy and rocky88's situation dont happen again, whether thats RB engined Nissans or old VW Beetles. The general public would benefit, no BULLSHIT defect crap from the police but actual POLICE work.

you know, POLICE work. pull people over and suss THEM out not defect the car just because you 'think' you can.

here to help.

[rhys5169]

mod plates would basically put a end to the harrasment certain officers of the law provide, they cant defect you for something that you have on the mod plate, but they still can with a $2000 dollar engineer certificate.

[RubyRS4]

Stewy's story here (post 153) is why this meeting could be the start of something big, something important.

Look, i havent been pulled over, not even for breatho, in around EIGHT years.

& there are reasons for that Im sure.

But I want to support ppl like stewy here who have had a hard time, all for nothing, due to the misinformation that exists between adr rules, officials (law, police, regency) and the public; the end users. I really feel for rocky88 too...

here to help. Sled, hope you reconsider mate. One percisive comment or a little ingenious input could be just the thing that ensures cars like Vu (air filter), stewy and rocky88's situation dont happen again, whether thats RB engined Nissans or old VW Beetles. The general public would benefit, no BULLSHIT defect crap from the police but actual POLICE work.

you know, POLICE work. pull people over and suss THEM out not defect the car just because you 'think' you can.

here to help.

You know Tangles, thats the most considerate, broad minded post I've read from you for a while now

Off the meds for the moment are we?

[SLED]

Stewy's story here (post 154) is why this meeting could be the start of something big, something important.

Look, i havent been pulled over, not even for breatho, in around EIGHT years.

& there are reasons for that Im sure.

But I want to support ppl like stewy here who have had a hard time, all for nothing, due to the misinformation that exists between adr rules, officials (law, police, regency) and the public; the end users. I really feel for rocky88 too...

here to help. Sled, hope you reconsider mate. One persuasive comment or a little ingenious input could be just the thing that ensures cars like Vu (air filter), stewy and rocky88's situation don't happen again, whether that's RB engined Nissans or old VW Beetles. The general public would benefit, no BULLSHIT defect crap from the police but actual POLICE work.

you know, POLICE work. pull people over and suss THEM out not defect the car just because you 'think' you can.

here to help.

Hey Tangles, I agree that guys like Stewy got the raw end of the deal. Unfortunately police are able to by-pass engineer's certificates and send you directly to Regency purely on suspicion that you've further modified your vehicle, beyond the certificate........harsh, but that's the way it is.

As far as reconsidering, my door is never fully closed, BUT, at this stage we seem to be calling for a meeting and no one has yet defined to me what their exact expectations are for the outcome of this meeting. I mean, we're not even sure what questions to ask yet so to me it comes across as a meeting for meetings sake (which I get enough of during the week) and when all is said and done, usually more is said than done.

We've already established that we are not going to change their minds in relation to defects for illegal mods, so give me a light at the end of the tunnel and I may reconsider......but don't hold your breath!

[Nene260RS]

Sled, I'll be compiling a list of questions / queries / concers soon, and i'll post them up. This will be my final check list as to what is on the agenda for the meeting.

I will not pull out now, as i'll be the one who looks like a wanker after all the corrispondence that's gone back and forth from Neil.

The end result, at the very least, will be clarification on certain issues brought up by SAU SA members.

I do not have the misconception of Mods HAVING to be there. But i will most definately be looking to you, over the next couple of days for some advice.