Gtr Rb30 Sump Adaptor Plates

[N1GTR]

Hey everyone!

With some bigger HP/KW cars coming out of the woodwork and a lot of discussion between RB30 differences, one thats important is the sump adaptor kits available.

There's always been the widely accepted ProEngines kit;

But now RIPS have made a big splash with their mainly "stock" blocks and cranks. There's been some locals (well, local to us Aussies) using the RIPS billet kits, shanef has a kit in the pipeline aswel as a couple of other regulars on here.

So this thread is just for general discussion and a kind of XXXX kit vs XXXX kit, not to trash talk, but to have factual info for anyone considering the swap from RB20/25/26 etc to the RB30 bottom end.

Please post up any random info that can be of use! Pics, prices - whatever!

To start the discussion off; Why does RIPS sell a billet kit when the huge numbers have been pulled on their "normal" sump adaptor kit? Also, will they be priced closely to the widely accepted ProEngines kit?

Discuss

[Dynamix]

I'm sure shanef will have a say in this thread Best person to ask about r.i.ps kits is rob himself.

[N1GTR]

Oh im sure he will aswel Thats the plan, so info can be posted up for future RB30 owners

Hopefully Rob will post up his experience here also

[Marko R1]

steve - i have some pics from shanef on his billet girdle/adapter kit so hopefully he will post them here

[R.I.P.S NZ]

To start the discussion off; Why does RIPS sell a billet kit when the huge numbers have been pulled on their "normal" sump adaptor kit? Also, will they be priced closely to the widely accepted ProEngines kit?

Discuss

I'm more than happy to keep involved in this thread as long as it stays clean and no slinging match.

Firstly. I like to stay ahead of the game as much as I can and always have something new in the pipeline.

When I first put the 240z engine together I specificly wanted to keep it as basic as possible to try and find some limits, we've never even broken a stock one and we've had a guy in KSA take our most basic stock internal bottom end to just on 1000hp after he'd run it at 750 for a long time, admitidly he cracked a ring land at around 1000hp (2 bar, C16, GT42, good 26 head etc) but the other 5 pistons were still mint so we are un-decided weather it was a tuning issue or just bad luck.

He had already ordered a forged bottom end off me (as soon as we'd done 8.2s) so was quite keen to push the stock motor till it broke.

Anyway, back to the 240z motor.....I don't even have a block brace on it, the block is stock 2wd, no block filler, stock crank, stock cradle, stock used 10mm mains bolts and the head is held down with 11mm only.

I am as surprised as anyone I assure you, 8.05 @ 172 on a very "all over the place" run with lots of top end spin/slip shows at least 1100whp and we were up around 9500rpm.

I honestly expected it to go bang a long time ago, its been incredibly reliable, its had 3 or 4 oil changes, 1 set of thrust bearings which we found out were getting damaged by the stock flex plate distorting so much, the pistons have never been out of the bores since the day it was built and on Sunday just before the 8.16 and the 8.05 it had its first new set of spark plugs since new (no shyte!!)

I can say though, that we are EXTREEMLY fussy with the builds, install, wiring, mapping, between meet checks etc and it does pay off.

All of my 4wd motors get the block brace/adapter kit (adds nzd1000 to the price of a bottom end)

Once the billet mains kit was finished and tested by us in a 1300hp, 10,000rpm RB30, I have sold several to various guys all over the world who just want the added security of what should be pretty much a bomb proof bottom end, is it "needed" at 1200-1300hp, maybe not, is it "needed" from 1300-1500hp we don't know yet but I'm sure some of the guys with my billet mains kits either already are or will be in that power range, and when I break my stock block 240z motor I'll be the first to do a full video/photo diary of the strip down to show exactly what is inside it.

Rob

[N1GTR]

Great, thanks

Any chance we can have a few pics please to visually compare to the ProEngines kit? So people reading this thread in the future can see the actual differences before making a purchase. Btw thats better priced than the ProEngines kit pending shipping, id guess you've sent these by themselves to Australia before. Do you remember how much they are delivered? Quote in NZD if easier

Also for the more extreme guys; what sort of dollars are they looking at for the billet kit?

Ill assume they both come with bolts etc ready to go as a bolt on part

With your 240z motor being so reliable and deep into the 8's (well done btw ), im suprised the billet kit exists. But like you said, its good to know the limit of the stock parts

[Swiper the Fox]

Great, thanks

Any chance we can have a few pics please to visually compare to the ProEngines kit? So people reading this thread in the future can see the actual differences before making a purchase. Btw thats better priced than the ProEngines kit pending shipping, id guess you've sent these by themselves to Australia before. Do you remember how much they are delivered? Quote in NZD if easier

Also for the more extreme guys; what sort of dollars are they looking at for the billet kit?

Ill assume they both come with bolts etc ready to go as a bolt on part

With your 240z motor being so reliable and deep into the 8's (well done btw ), im suprised the billet kit exists. But like you said, its good to know the limit of the stock parts

Im keen to use a billet kit if its not too exy.

Robbie is the king of all things RB30 as far as drag cars go...(please no-one bring up the VL boys) no one in this country has had any success running these in 4WD format yet (again no VL comments). Im keen to build one and put one of my monster heads on it to see if i can get it to work. If not ill stick it back in the forklift and be australias fastest pallet stacker.

Edited March 3, 2009 by DiRTgarage

[R.I.P.S NZ]

Any chance we can have a few pics please to visually compare to the ProEngines kit? So people reading this thread in the future can see the actual differences before making a purchase. Btw thats better priced than the ProEngines kit pending shipping, id guess you've sent these by themselves to Australia before. Do you remember how much they are delivered? Quote in NZD if easier

Also for the more extreme guys; what sort of dollars are they looking at for the billet kit?

Ill assume they both come with bolts etc ready to go as a bolt on part

I don't usually sell the adpater plate seperatly as I do the pickup differently to the adapter shown above and as such each one is usually done along with one of our high capcity sumps so it all works together.

Our big sumps are also very involved and quite a few have been sold into Aussie recently for a variety of applications.

Shipping is cheap, around nzd200 for sump and adapter kit and if I was to sell and adapter seperate it would only be about nzd75 to send to Aussie.

The billet mains kit is a whole different kettle of fish, there are 75 fastners in the full kit (studs, cap screws etc), cnc billet mains caps and a substantial cnc block brace.

They require the block mains threads to be enlarged to 11mm and once all assembled the block needs to be line bored.

The full kit is nzd4000+ shipping or it adds nzd5000 to the price of a forged bottom end if we the whole job here.

Rob

[N1GTR]

Well done Rob, you're selling a higher quality and proven part for less than the Australian parts.

Ill be in touch soon to take one

Paul - sometimes people need to stack pallets quickly...

[proengines]

If anyone wants to know anything about our kits ask away. I've sold over 20 of them and no-one has complained or sent one back. I've sent them to the US, UK, Estonia, Saudi Arabia, even Tasmania.

They are a straight bolt up after grinding 7 notches in the block sump rail to the supplied templates. The have a silicone relief the same as the original sump does where they mate up to the block. The plate is 10mm laser cut steel. The bolt holes , threads and the silicone relief are fully CNC machined. We can supply the internal pickup but don't have to, I'd actually prefer not to as it saves a lot of work and the pickups are made to order so they slow down shipping.

We do the full kit for $900 including the plate, high tensile fasteners, cutting templates, turbo oil return, pickup and full instructions.

The kit without the pickup is $700 for those who want to make their own or run an external pickup. This still includes everything else.

If someone wanted a bare plate I'd do one for $550.

I've usually got 5 or so in stock (apart from the pickups which are made when they are ordered).

It's probably better if someone who has used one describes what the kit is like to fit, that way it's not an infomercial by me.

[shanef]

Well i'll start with my adapter plate kits, exactly the same as the rips or pro-engines one except i'm not including a pickup, too hard to do as i cant weld and can't find someone local to do them. Reason its too hard is the pickup on the rb30 sits in the centre of the block, which is exactly where the axle tube sits in the 4wd sump. You could do it easily if u used a ~15mm adapter plate, but then youd have cross member clearance issues. The pickup on the rb26 sits at the front of the engine, away from the axle tube.

So all my kits are sold with the plate which is fully cnc machined from 5083 ally (has a higher silicon content so aids in thread strength) with the edges chamfered, high tensile cap head & hex head bolts, washers, template to bolt to the block to drill & tap the extra holes & notch the block on the diff side & of course instructions. Priced at $650 retail. Pics:

Next are the billet girdles. I started work on these approx 18months ago with the first design being a 2 piece. It consisted of a piece of billet approx 40mm thick which mated to the std main caps that were machined down to suit, this was much similar to the way rob does his aftermarket girdles with individual caps but his being billet (and of course alot stronger). It went into a local circuit raced gtr and there were no issues what so ever after a tear down was down when a turbo let go. Along the way a few people raised the question of whether a 2 piece girdle like that would actually induce cap walk, being that there were now 2 plates holding the bearings in place, turned out there wasnt an issue and i see rob has gone an extra step with adding 2 extra high tensile cap heads per main cap that bolt the adapter plate to the billet caps (nice thinking rob). I then started with the single piece design and was contacted by a workshop over christmas which gave me a hurry up to get the design finished and the prototypes made. There are alot of unknowns and unanswered questions that need be figured out with the test car, so these wont be ready for sale for a few months yet. Price for these are $2250 for a rwd girdle and $2450 for a 4wd girdle.

Basic design is to give maiximum strength across all 7 caps by leaving as much meat in the end wings as possible and tie it to the side of the block. Started by getting both the block and std girdle digitised and then designed it from there. We also did some stress analysis to check where the critical areas were and made the appropriate changes to suit. Next was material selection, which ended up being 7075 alluminium which probably is overkill, but its better to have it stronger than its needed. Fitment wise is much the same as rob explained earlier with all the casting dags being removed, and in my case the std oil pickup tube mahinced off. To leave it there would weaken the middle cap more than what would be acceptable. Mainstuds are still the std M10x1.5 arp issue, but this time using a full set of the longer studs as found in the std arp kits. Recesses are cut into the top face to suit. The cap faces are faced dead square to both top and bottom decks, and 15thou is left on the tunnel. So the block being used needs to be line bored to suit, and this part is essential that it is done 100% accurate, any wobble in the boring machine will give incorrect clearances. Also when its line bored, radius' need to be put onto the bearing edges.

We are unsure of what clearances we are going to start off with as we dont know what role thermal expansion differences will play, short life but tear downs will give us the answers.

Enough babble and on with the pics:

Early 2 piece setup:

New single piece setup:

[shanef]

Epic post jesus

Heres a question i have for those brainy ones out there and for all to discuss:

With the aftermarket girdles and the adapter plates, where/who would you get in contact with to make some proper gaskets? It would save the hassle of using damn sealer all the time. This would also be handy for the aftermarket girdles as an un-even thickness could play with the clearances.

[Mandingo]

Very, very nice looking piece's of hardware from you boys I must say. Just what I needed to get my arse back in the garage and finish my 30 off

[proengines]

Epic post jesus

Heres a question i have for those brainy ones out there and for all to discuss:

With the aftermarket girdles and the adapter plates, where/who would you get in contact with to make some proper gaskets? It would save the hassle of using damn sealer all the time. This would also be handy for the aftermarket girdles as an un-even thickness could play with the clearances.

I may not be super brainy Shane but I'd stick to a good silicone. It conforms to any shape and will take up quite a big gap if it dries properly first. I don't like gaskets unless you have to use them, just look at the old jag engines, everything machined beautifully, gaskets on everything and leak like a sieve. For your one piece jobbie, why not machine it to take a rubber o-ring seal? you can buy it by the roll, fit it into the groove and glue the ends so it's a one piece seal. Saying that, all the oem stuff now is silicone because it just doesn't leak, I'd actually stick to that. (no pun intended ) I use silicone on the sump of the commodore cup engines I do and they dont leak, even without using the rubber end seals.

P.S. Rob, I just had a look at the thread on gtr.co.uk about the RB33. Very nice setup with the caps and plate. I like the cardboard censorship of the oil pickup on the adapter. I actually fitted one of yours a few years ago, nice simple setup with the pickup which has worked fine on the engine it's on. I didn't copy it as you can see in the photos above We spent ages to get a workable bolt on one and it took some creative thinking to have it clear the axle tube, saying that, it works really well. I've gotta say, also very impressed with your exhaust manifolds!

[shanef]

I may not be super brainy Shane but I'd stick to a good silicone. It conforms to any shape and will take up quite a big gap if it dries properly first. I don't like gaskets unless you have to use them, just look at the old jag engines, everything machined beautifully, gaskets on everything and leak like a sieve. For your one piece jobbie, why not machine it to take a rubber o-ring seal? you can buy it by the roll, fit it into the groove and glue the ends so it's a one piece seal. Saying that, all the oem stuff now is silicone because it just doesn't leak, I'd actually stick to that. (no pun intended ) I use silicone on the sump of the commodore cup engines I do and they dont leak, even without using the rubber end seals.

P.S. Rob, I just had a look at the thread on gtr.co.uk about the RB33. Very nice setup with the caps and plate. I like the cardboard censorship of the oil pickup on the adapter. I actually fitted one of yours a few years ago, nice simple setup with the pickup which has worked fine on the engine it's on. I didn't copy it as you can see in the photos above We spent ages to get a workable bolt on one and it took some creative thinking to have it clear the axle tube, saying that, it works really well. I've gotta say, also very impressed with your exhaust manifolds!

U say ur not super brainy but theres a great idea right there.

It wouldnt be hard at all to o-ring it, and without looking at one on a block i think theres enough room too.

Saying that have you tried it on any of your adapters?

The only way i could see doing the internal pickups was to get the bends custom mandrel bent, i couldn't work out a way to get the angle low enough out of the block so a)it wouldnt hit the tube and b)u could get a nut/bolt into the flange. I raise my hands in praise to yours and rob's efforts on that lol

[Dynamix]

This is really great, thanks everyone for sharing infromation, its a good thing to see!

[proengines]

Shane, I thought about fitting an o-ring but a 3mm cutter in steel leads to dead tools and would almost double the machine time, on aluminium it would be an awful lot easier. I'd still use silicone instead, it just doesn't leak.

As for the pickups, lots of close radius mandrel bends and a custom laser cut flange plate and screen (well over $100 in parts), plus a 10mm head M8 front bolt, a really good welder (not me) a jig we have set up using a 26 block and a sump with the bottom removed to check clearance and more time than it should take. The pickup runs really close but clears everything and is the same id as standard. We've been going to have them cnc bent but to make it worthwhile need to get a large batch done.

[shanef]

Hmm you've got me intrigued on the o-ring idea. I've got access to a spintron so i might look into setting an engine up on it and letting it run to see how it holds.

Yep knew it'd be that much of a pita, hence i ruled it out. Your probably actually losing money on them too with the man hours involved.

[R31Nismoid]

Great thread so far

Minor issue with people quoting prices and so on, but look ill leave it as is, if we dont continue anymore price talk that would be good

We have paying Traders so we've got to respect that right for them, i think we can all agree that's fair enough yes?

[proengines]

Great thread so far

Minor issue with people quoting prices and so on, but look ill leave it as is, if we dont continue anymore price talk that would be good

We have paying Traders so we've got to respect that right for them, i think we can all agree that's fair enough yes?

Agreed, sorry about that.