Track Day (pre And Post) Inspections?

[Roy]

Meh, whats all the fuss about. My lil R32 GTSt is quicker around Sandown then an R35 So what if the GTR had a speed limiter

[costco]

the vast majority of people would see track days where each lap effectively costs in the vacinity of $200 as being an absolute f**king rip-off, regardless of how perfect each 200ms gearshift is.

maybe you should get a grip on reality before posting dumb shit like that

I Believe that Martin is spot on in what he says. The Porsche, Ferrari and other supercar buyers get treated the same way and are happy to pay the big bucks for the privelege or status when they get shafted by their respective dealerships. Why? because they got the bucks and treat their cars as an expensive hobby whilst on the other hand Nissan is attracting bargain basement supercar buyers that have swallowed all the stories they spun in order to take your bookings and your money and then fill in the details at a later date. Nissan , through their dealerships (who have spent a lot of money to gain the accreditation to sell these vehicles) have made a lot of ad hoc promisses that they will never be able to honour.

If anyone that has pre ordered these cars believes the warm and fuzzy stories that Nissan have spun just go and visit the UK forums and talk to the guys that have paid substantial deposits in March 2008 and are now getting their deliviries deferred to OCT 2009. These guys have been in well before the Australian buyers and have had much more information than the guys over here and are still

getting rooted around.

So just remember if you need to ask how much and what for, then you propably can't afford it anyway. Nissan are here to make money and not to do any favours. They have spent a lot of effort to get this car into the country and so far with the dollar in free fall they will do their arse in, so they will be going hard any way they can to recoup the money. This will NOT be an "affordable supercar."

[Martin Donnon]

Martin,

Where do I get my information...well obviously I should have asked you because from your posts to date you are a self proclaimed expert on all things track and GTR. Well done we should all aspire to your dizzying heights of knowledge and wisdom.

Cheers

Maybe I based my post on the vast publicity and emphasis that Nissan put on their Nurburging lap times in both the wet and dry, the fact that the image when waiting for the GTR site to load is a race track. The fact that they claim it is "The Supercar for anywhere, anytime" ...oh anywhere except the track.

They also claim under the tyres: "Are specifically designed for high speed driving around the race track"

Their claims of how it performs and corners on the track at upto 300km/h.

Hey Gibbo you are welcome to believe the sales brochure, but its fact that -

These high performance race tyres you speak of (run flat RE070 rubbish) delaminate and fall apart at the front after a handful of laps while being seconds slower than a proper road legal semi-slick. The brake pads fracture and fall apart by around your second track day, and the brake rotors are cracked beyond safety by the fourth. At this stage the gearbox will be making serious metal, the front diff oil have totally cooked and need replacing, and the engine require a major service. Welcome to playing with cars on a race track.

While this doesnt sit well with the fairies down the bottom of the garden that wrote the sales spiel to suck in customers, these facts are indeed dervied from 6 months of personal GTR ownership and plenty of sessions around Mallala Raceway. My GTR is on its third set of tyres, second set of brake pads, second set of brake discs, has had 4 major services, has an aftermarket transmission cooler in place to protect the box, and has covered a total of 8000km. R35 GTR IS NOT A RACE CAR FOR THE ROAD. Just a bloody fast nice GT/Supercar.

Your GTR wouldnt have been built yet let alone be in your garage, so when you play the smart arse quoting car salesmen against actual recorded facts, accept there are those out actually doing it, while you are typing about it.

But hey what do I know....

If you calmed down and listened probably a lot more than you do now

Edited March 9, 2009 by Martin Donnon

[ylwgtr2]

[Beer Baron]

R35 GTR IS NOT A RACE CAR FOR THE ROAD. Just a bloody fast nice GT/Supercar.

exactly. like I said, it's at it's most impressive on the road and that's where it's designed to be driven. sure it's quick on the track over a single lap or two but the temps get rapidly out of hand. engine oil temp and trans oil temp rocket after a few decent laps.

for any serious track fun you need:

new non drilled rotors

new high temp pads

lot's o tyres

trans cooler and better trans oil

replace all the oils regularly (and there is enough in the thing to keep oil sheiks very happy!)

and by then you really would be looking to get a proper harness and seat in there

and convert the paddles to move with the wheel

etc etc etc. all costs money. and that's assuming nothing breaks...

they are still the most impressive car you can get new for $160K I reckon and stupidly fast in all conditions.

[Martin Donnon]

engine oil temp and trans oil temp rocket after a few decent laps.

Not on mine

[Beer Baron]

Not on mine

well not any more.....

I should add that it's pretty much the same for any production car. particularly newer ones. you take any brand new factory standard car to the track and punish it for 10 laps and see how it copes. the story is always the same. good for 1 or 2 laps. but 10 laps will give you smoking brakes, sky high temps, tyres that are moving around on the tread and possibly even chunks of them coming off. there are only a handful of exceptions. like a GT3 or GT2 etc. and they cost a shitload more than 160K and of course they are great on track, but no where near as good on road.

[Gibbo_R35]

Your GTR wouldnt have been built yet let alone be in your garage, so when you play the smart arse quoting car salesmen against actual recorded facts, accept there are those out actually doing it, while you are typing about it.

I know about your history with the GTR, I know you own one, I know you track one....my gripe is not against the car, I know the limitations of tyres, I know the limitations of brake pads, I have tracked cars (Mainly for fun mind you) for the last 10 years.

I know from the NOW RELEASED specs that GTR is not a Race Car, however my gripe is the following:

Nissan have marketed the car as a car for the road and track, their web site and all the marketing guff states this pretty clearly. (Lets forget about the actual specs for just this moment)

I put down a deposit almost 18 months ago, I signed a formal order about 6 months ago. I explained very clearly what I intend to do with the car, at this point Nissan did not say one word. It is only now that they have decided oh wait our final Australian specs are not suitable for proper tracking of the car, lets throw in a product waiver.

Not only will we throw in a waiver, we will then void your warranty if you try to change those things that make this car unsuitable for tracking. Not just void the warranty on those parts or faults caused by those parts.

My argument is not that the GTR is a racecar...it is certainly no GT3, that is designed to be used for all manner of Motor sports, the GTR is marketed as a car that you could drive to work on Friday and then take it to a drive day on Saturday. It is not for Motorkana's, it is not for hillclimbs, it is not for rally's, it is however marketed as a car suitable for recreational track use.

This is what pi$$es me off, Nissan markets the car as one thing but then tells you...oh by the way...all those claims we made about 0-100 times, all that great potential the car has for the track and that we publicised as it's strengths...if you do any of these things then your warranty is void.

I will ensure that I will carry a GTR brochure around with me at all times...hell knows it will be the only proof that I have of this car's true potential because as soon as you try to do the real thing, then poof.....there goes your warranty.

[Martin Donnon]

Ok I understand you are frustrated Gibbo, and that is fair enough

However these are car companies we are talking about here, that will do what they need to do to get the deal done.

This whole scenario is a direct lift out from the pages of 1990/1991 when Nissan last tried to market a GTR here. The dealers didnt know what was going on, there was little information about the cars, warranty was almost non-existant - a clutch went (started slipping) after a track day in our original Aussie delivered R32GTR when it was 3 months old, and all Nissan could suggest was to learn how to drive the car, and the customer pay for the clutch. Jim Richards came and showed you how to drive your 32 GTR on the track, and if you took it to the track again you had no warranty. Go figure, nothings changed in 20 years.

Just drive it for what it is and realise that even with all of the shitty paperwork its still a good car

[djr81]

Ok I understand you are frustrated Gibbo, and that is fair enough

However these are car companies we are talking about here, that will do what they need to do to get the deal done.

This whole scenario is a direct lift out from the pages of 1990/1991 when Nissan last tried to market a GTR here. The dealers didnt know what was going on, there was little information about the cars, warranty was almost non-existant - a clutch went (started slipping) after a track day in our original Aussie delivered R32GTR when it was 3 months old, and all Nissan could suggest was to learn how to drive the car, and the customer pay for the clutch. Jim Richards came and showed you how to drive your 32 GTR on the track, and if you took it to the track again you had no warranty. Go figure, nothings changed in 20 years.

Just drive it for what it is and realise that even with all of the shitty paperwork its still a good car

Well here is hoping the R35 is more successful sales wise than the r32's. The original Godzilla sat around stinking up Nissans forecourts for a very long time. Mind you the R32 was released in the middle of a recession. Oh, wait.

I am curious about a couple of things:

1. How does anyone suppose Nissan will be able to differentiate between failures caused by track work & failures that may be grounds for warranty claims?

2. Your local dealer be of no help in fettling the car for track work. At most they may do a wheel alignment but remember even Nismo parts void the warranty. So at the end of the day how valuable is staying involved with the dealer?

[Martin Donnon]

Well here is hoping the R35 is more successful sales wise than the r32's. The original Godzilla sat around stinking up Nissans forecourts for a very long time. Mind you the R32 was released in the middle of a recession. Oh, wait.

Well you do have a very good point. The only difference is that $110,000 for a GTR back then in the early 90s would be like charging $350,000 for the current thing. 35 actually represents good value for money

I am curious about a couple of things:

1. How does anyone suppose Nissan will be able to differentiate between failures caused by track work & failures that may be grounds for warranty claims?

Of course they cannot

2. Your local dealer be of no help in fettling the car for track work. At most they may do a wheel alignment but remember even Nismo parts void the warranty. So at the end of the day how valuable is staying involved with the dealer?

Exactly right. I leave the track wheel alignment, track pads, midpipe etc on our GTR the whole time rather than wearing out all the suspension adjustment points trying to reduce road noise. Fact is on those RE070 tyres you can hardly hear the passenger talk at 110km/h on the right coarse chip surface such is the roar the things make. Moving the camber a couple of degrees wont change anything enough

Edited March 9, 2009 by Martin Donnon

[sh@un]

Well seeing as you probably havent driven anything racier than a keyboard, and obviously never been on a track let me explain.....

How you come to that conclusion without knowing anything about me I'll never know. If we're playing the 'wild assumption' game; maybe you like to dress up as a school-girl and get your arse paddled by Madam Lash at the Emporium Of Pain? Who knows...

FYI though: I have owned an R32 GT-R (does that qualify as 'racier than a keyboard'?, maybe we can start a poll?), and have done multiple track days with it, driving hard.

I know from first hand experience that your cost breakdown is laughable using a resonably priced performance car (i.e- The ones that have been out for a fair while and have had enough parts developed for them that there is decent aftermarket choice) where you don't take it in the backside for upgraded parts.

Not including the entry fee for a track day, you'd easily get away with additional expenses being around the same as you spend on fuel for the 'racing' (just don't fight for position under brakes, coz that's a no-no at these 'run-what-ya-brung' events)

[LSX-438]

Has anyone got the wording of the new agreement or details on the inspections yet?

[scathing]

And have all the joys of a 10 year old well worn car with the bonus being it will be worth $50K when it comes time to sell it

If you're comparing apples with apples, what's the worth of a "thrashed" R35 GT-R with no warranty, thanks to your track work?

Your cashed up social climbers wanting to be seen in a GT-R aren't going to buy a tracked example, especially it if Nissan gives them grief when it comes time to service it. Your enthusiast track day guys are too busy spending money on those consumables you mentioned to buoy up the prices.

It might be worth more than $50K, but relative to how much you paid for either car the R34 still makes a more cost effective vehicle for track work. At least with a modified R34 you can strip the upgraded parts out and try to recoup some of your outlay.

FYI though: I have owned an R32 GT-R (does that qualify as 'racier than a keyboard'?, maybe we can start a poll?), and have done multiple track days with it, driving hard.

Define "hard".

Not including the entry fee for a track day, you'd easily get away with additional expenses being around the same as you spend on fuel for the 'racing'

If you were driving hard you'd go through a set of R-Comps in 3-4 track days if you don't street drive them in between (you might stretch it to 5-6 if you're not concerned about outright grip, or road legality). You'd probably go through a set of OEM pads in 10,000km mixed in with regular street driving if you did those 3-4 track days during that period. That's before you get into fluids that you should be changing after each "hard driven" track day, or other incidental costs. Nor does it include the cost of breaking something.

3-4 track days in 10,000km of daily driving might be a bit more than what a lot of people do, but if you consider your car to be a "race car for the road" and you plan on enjoying it in a legal manner then it's also not unbelievable that some people might do it.

[scathing]

I put down a deposit almost 18 months ago, I signed a formal order about 6 months ago. I explained very clearly what I intend to do with the car, at this point Nissan did not say one word.

If you can prove it, you can get a refund and back out of the formal order without penalty.

Its not the ideal solution since you actually want the car, but you want the car they're advertising and not the car you're getting.

Edited March 9, 2009 by scathing

[ylwgtr2]

i think this is getting out of hand.....we are talking "track day" not "race day"....there is a big difference

[ylwgtr2]

How you come to that conclusion without knowing anything about me I'll never know. If we're playing the 'wild assumption' game; maybe you like to dress up as a school-girl and get your arse paddled by Madam Lash at the Emporium Of Pain? Who knows...

hahahahahahaha

[Snowman]

i think this is getting out of hand.....we are talking "track day" not "race day"....there is a big difference

Indeed. I remember being told originally that the car would be covered on the track on the condition there was no competition number on the car.

I'm not sure that is still the case. The old document mentioned the words "excludes coverage for racing" but never mentioned the words "race track" like the new one does. I'm trying to get a copy of the new form today.

[FineLine]

And have all the joys of a 10 year old well worn car with the bonus being it will be worth $50K when it comes time to sell it

And what do you think a 35 will be worth after its been track flogged with all the data there to prove it. I be thinking the track costs will blow out dispoprtionately if you take accelerated depreciation due to track work in to account.

[Max_ST-R]

Yep I got an explanation on this last week, the warranty is void whist you are tracking the car. They inspect for faults before going on the track, they then inspect after you finish to ensure there aren't any. Your warranty then resumes.

Your warranty does not resume until after your after track inspection.

Once again another surprise that Nissan springs after you order the car.

Nissan GTR, the every day super car that is designed to beat the Porsche Turbo....but don't drive it fast, or take it to the track, or launch it because we will not cover it.

I am getting a little jack of this, everytime I go back to the dealer they spring something else on me.

Why build a track car and then not cover anything.

I have not signed anything yet...wonder what happens if I refuse to. This was not part of the original contract for sale.

I think we need a bit of perspective here. First of all, by rights the GT-R should be a hell of a lot more expensive than what Nissan charge for it. From the way it performs, the way it's engineered and built, to the spec list, it's a gigantic anomoly in the supercar market. lets face it you can't even get yourself into a Cayman S for the price ($160,800 PLUS options for PDK) . You couldn't even buy a BMW M3!

'Pound for Pound' Porsche is the most profitable car maker on the globe and one of the most profitable full stop. The cheapest vehicle they produce that even comes close to the GT-R is the GT3, that car is $279,300 PLUS options, next in line is the 911 Turbo manual coupe at $361,100 PLUS options, then of course there is the GT2 at $447,500 PLUS options. Of course Porsche can allow their owners more liberties on the track...becuase the customer pays for it!. Even at the revised April 1 price of $158,500 for the GT-R Premium ($155,800 for the standard), this simply pales in comparison...and my money is that the 09MY will cast aside ANY doubt that the GT-R more than has the measure for the $447,500 GT2 (let alone Turbo and GT3). I think at these prices Nissan are entitled to a bit of protection...after all the alternative will set you back at least an extra $120,000...but in reality an extra $202,000 for a Turbo or $290k odd for a GT2. Don't get wrong..those Posches are fabulous machines, I love them dearly..but once again...perspective...