NSW State Supersprints 2009

[Beer Baron]

Listen? You can hear things in here?

Listen: v. i. To give close attention with the purpose of hearing; to give ear; to hearken; to attend.

Listen: v. i. To give heed; to yield to advice; to follow admonition; to obey.

I think harry has some pretty good points. I know you argue that it's 'state level' and not a 'club championship'. but tell me what apart from the name is different between the cams state level supersprints and the AROCA/HSV/WRX/SSCC events? I've competed in both and they both seem the same to me. they both cost about the same. they both have the same classes. they both run at the same tracks. and they are both entry level motorsport. which is the key.

I think it's great you get out there in your formula holden and I would never seek to exclude anyone from racing, but you did buy the car knowing what rules and classes it fitted surely? so if you wanted to be eligible for points etc you could have bought a different car and competed for points? supersprints are like regularity. they are in the main there for guys with road cars to get out on the track in a safe and affordable form of motorsport competition. usually the serious guys with dedicated race cars move on to any of the number of local, state or national championships. taking a formula holden to a supersprint to compete against bob smith in his 2 litre 1983 alfa GTV or frank jones in his road going 32 GTR is like bringing a bazooka to an arm wrestle.

I could totally understand if you bought a car that was eligible, and then they changed the rules to exclude you. that would be completely unfair. but that is not what has happened here. sure it's nice to win, but it's hardly a fair fight to bring a car that in top form is capable of near on a minute flat around the GP Circuit to beat cars that at best will get to mid teens. the outright lap record at OP GP I think is still a formula holden at around 61 or 62 seconds.

state level, suburb level, international level whatever level supersprints are an entry level form of motorsport and a formula holden is far from an entry level car. BTW well done on hussling the thing round as quick as you do. people always think it's easy to drive a fast car fast, but it's not. it's far easier to reach the potential of a slow car and look good doing it. 1:15 is quicker than i've ever been around GP circuit that's for sure.

if you really want to run the formula holden in a series then you should talk to AASA and see what is happening with all the guys that were running in ozboss etc. surely those cars aren't all running in 'state level' super sprints around the country.

[SteadyEddie]

you miss the point entirely. you are not eligible for the championship. you bought and entered a car that you know is not eligible for the championship. you can't really come first if you're not eligible, can you?

you'll either have to get used to watching other people get 1st outright in the championship, or run an eligible car and beat them fair and square???

you beat a bunch of road registered cars by 3 seconds and you want everyone to know you were the real outright winner??? I'd be embarassed to go up and accept the trophy for that.

that's all from me on this subject.

Talk about missing the point......the whole point of Michele/Neils and anyone else that runs a type 5 - is they can not win outright - and the reason they can not win outright is because the rules were setup so they couldn't - plain and simple...yet you carry on about this and that and miss the whole reason. The rules are WRONG - CAMS admit they changed the rules to exclude a type - that is fixing....

The argument is all about that - nothing else - yet you cant see that....so dont talk about "missing the point entirely" - you havent understood - from your first comment to your last - what the argument has been about...I'm glad thats all from you - because you havent contributed anything constructive because you havent understood what the whole point of Michele/Neils concerns are - basically you have totally missed everything...ITS ALL ABOUT THE RULES BEING WRONG AND LETS GET THEM CHANGED....read that - and listen!!!

[rmsport]

Will someone correct me if the below is wrong.

For outright points

A sports sedan is acceptable - Oran Park 1:06.9

A V8 Supercar is acceptable - 1:08.6

A 997 Porsche is acceptable - 1:09.6

A Formula Vee 1200 is NOT acceptable - 1:21.9

A Formula Vee 1600 is NOT acceptable - 1:18.8

An Aussie Legend is NOT acceptable - 1:16.6

For the Australian Supersprint Championship ANY CAMS category vehicle that is the quickest on the day will win the Championship.

Seems to be a warped sense of logic in NSW.

[grippy]

Okay, I'll let Bob know as well, get him to follow up because he is not showing up as registered. The original paperwork had the wrong fax number, it wasn't supposed to go to CAMS. I'm not sure what happened at CAMS end, but most of those ones went missing.

cheers, I'm sure it will be sorted out somehow.

I will pass on the info to my brother.

We both appreciate your help.

Hope to see you at the next round.

Rgds,

Andy

[hrd-hr30]

Talk about missing the point......the whole point of Michele/Neils and anyone else that runs a type 5 - is they can not win outright - and the reason they can not win outright is because the rules were setup so they couldn't - plain and simple...yet you carry on about this and that and miss the whole reason. The rules are WRONG - CAMS admit they changed the rules to exclude a type - that is fixing....

The argument is all about that - nothing else - yet you cant see that....so dont talk about "missing the point entirely" - you havent understood - from your first comment to your last - what the argument has been about...I'm glad thats all from you - because you havent contributed anything constructive because you havent understood what the whole point of Michele/Neils concerns are - basically you have totally missed everything...ITS ALL ABOUT THE RULES BEING WRONG AND LETS GET THEM CHANGED....read that - and listen!!!

The rules are right. They have been made this way intentionally. I am well aware they're excluded, that's bleedin' obvious, the thing you don't understand is WHY they are excluded. I've explained it. Go and read it from a slightly more objective perspective.

Edited March 17, 2009 by hrd-hr30

[Michele]

The rules are right. They have been made this way intentionally. I am well aware they're excluded, that's bleedin' obvious, the thing you don't understand is WHY they are excluded. I've explained it. Go and read it from a slightly more objective perspective.

What you are suggesting would be halfway acceptable if this were a club level event, but it is not. This is the CAMS 2009 Supersprint Championships and therefore all CAMS categories should be included. Bathurst Light Car Club hold club level supersprints and type 5 are eligible. Thornleight Car Club hold supersprints and type 5 is eligible.

Last year it was mandatory for type 5 to do three supersprints before they were allowed to run at the Nationals, however type 5 were not eligible for outright points in NSW. A disconnect.

By all means have multiple championships within the series, but don't call one of them Outright if it isn't. If not allowing all legitimate CAMS categories, I propose that they eliminate the deceptive Outright title altogether.

What is wrong with that? Why would anyone like to see a deceptive title awarded?

CAMS said it was to stop an individual from winning all the time. Tell me this isn't blatant event fixing? Yet I can't find anything on Natsoft to suggest a type 5 vehicle was winning constantly. In fact, the event record is held by a well deserved clubman.

I'm about making this fair for all legitimate CAMS categories, nothing else.

[GTR32G]

I don’t know why you say the rules are WRONG, there been like this for a while now. No offence to the drivers Neil and Michele you are driving your cars to at the level you wish to drive at, it’s better than pushing the car hard and not being able to control it and ending up in the wall, you can correct me if i am wrong Michele but if your car is a Formula Holden as Beer Baron has said it lap record is 1.02 at Oran Park GP, you can’t expect to come to a super sprint and a run over 10seconds or more a lap slower than car can go and thinks it’s fair to say you should be the NSW Cams Supersprint Champion doing it, Its fine if you want to show up and do a few sprint and test the car and learn how to drive it and move on to racing somewhere, but this is Supersprinting, like others have said its a starting point for drivers, street cars or people who can’t afford to go racing and do this as a hobby.

I myself am rebuilding a old Mazda sports sedan to run all up cost me under $15,000 and plan to run the car on a yearly budget of $4000- $5000, I hope to be able to get the thing in the top ten to run for outright, I am not trying to be a smart ass about it but my budget for the year would go as far as you ending up in a sand trap and ripping the front spoiler off, the rest of the outright cars running in the series would be all like me running on a budget as a hobby, so the rules suit 97% or the people running and is a close Championship, And yes you can go buy a R35 GTR and will cost a bit and if driven hard will beat Clubmans and Sports Sedan but this would still be some ones road car and doing it as a hobby.

And if you think the NSW State series rules are fixed to suit clubmans or who ever, why don’t people cry over the Super Lap rules where you can’t enter a clubman or kit car or rear engine car over 4 cylinders? So is Super Lap fixed to suit Jap Cars? I think the rules are good makes for close competition just like the top ten in Supersprint now.

I think at the end of the day everyone will have their own thoughts on this and if you try and get the rules changed will be interesting how you go, But i would be surprised if they changed them to suit 3 people of the 120 or more cars running. May be they will make a new Outright Series for perpose built race cars for the radical and all open wheel cars. and the others can have there own Championship as well?

[Michele]

What makes you think my budget is more than yours?

What is wrong, is that there are 5 cars entered who are legitimate CAMS categories who are not eligible for points at a CAMS state level event. What is wrong is they are falsely awarding an Outright title. All I am asking is to include ALL categories in the Outright title or remove the title altogether.

What is wrong is that they should never have changed the rules in the first place... and they should be ashamed of their reasoning.

[Michele]

May be they will make a new Outright Series for perpose built race cars for the radical and all open wheel cars. and the others can have there own Championship as well?

That would be a great outcome

[hrd-hr30]

Will someone correct me if the below is wrong.

For outright points

A sports sedan is acceptable - Oran Park 1:06.9

A V8 Supercar is acceptable - 1:08.6

A 997 Porsche is acceptable - 1:09.6

A Formula Vee 1200 is NOT acceptable - 1:21.9

A Formula Vee 1600 is NOT acceptable - 1:18.8

An Aussie Legend is NOT acceptable - 1:16.6

For the Australian Supersprint Championship ANY CAMS category vehicle that is the quickest on the day will win the Championship.

Seems to be a warped sense of logic in NSW.

its not for formula cars. get over it. there's only 1 who's entering anyway.

some formula Holden times

http://www.natsoft.com.au/cgi-bin/results....07/2000.ORAN.Q4

1:06 may be the Sport Sedan record, but there's only a handful of cars in the country capable of doing anything like that, and they seem to have bigger fish to fry than grassroots competitors at a Supersprint. Top State level Sport Sedans run more like 11s. The calibre of Sport Sedan you'll get at a grassroots supersprint will be significantly slower again. For example, there doesn't appear to have been any SS at the 1st round

Same goes for the V8 Supercar record. top line cars may be capable of those times, but you won't see any of them at a supersprint. how much slower are the slightly older Fujitsu/Konica/whatever they're called now series cars? moot point anyway because they have better things to do than beat up on grassroots competitors too so you won't see them at a supersprint. I've never seen an old V8 supercar at any supersprint I've done, and I've done plenty in a couple of states over the past 10 or so years.

exactly the same applies to the Porsche/Carrera Cup cars.

all of this type of hardware is pretty much out of the reach of the typical competitor base involved in grassroots stuff like supersprints.

but you now have 1 solitary F4000/Holden at your NSW supersprints. it doesn't really "fit" there, so its excluded from results, but they still let it run so the driver can get their kicks on the track. Its win-win for all parties. Only problem is someone wants to get the trophy for bashing up these grassroots competitors in their road registered cars...

[rmsport]

Will someone correct me if the below is wrong.

For outright points

A sports sedan is acceptable - Oran Park 1:06.9

A V8 Supercar is acceptable - 1:08.6

A 997 Porsche is acceptable - 1:09.6

A Formula Vee 1200 is NOT acceptable - 1:21.9

A Formula Vee 1600 is NOT acceptable - 1:18.8

An Aussie Legend is NOT acceptable - 1:16.6

For the Australian Supersprint Championship ANY CAMS category vehicle that is the quickest on the day will win the Championship.

its not for formula cars. get over it. there's only 1 who's entering anyway.

some formula Holden times

http://www.natsoft.com.au/cgi-bin/results....07/2000.ORAN.Q4

1:06 may be the Sport Sedan record, but there's only a handful of cars in the country capable of doing anything like that, and they seem to have bigger fish to fry than grassroots competitors at a Supersprint. Top State level Sport Sedans run more like 11s. The calibre of Sport Sedan you'll get at a grassroots supersprint will be significantly slower again. For example, there doesn't appear to have been any SS at the 1st round

Same goes for the V8 Supercar record. top line cars may be capable of those times, but you won't see any of them at a supersprint. how much slower are the slightly older Fujitsu/Konica/whatever they're called now series cars? moot point anyway because they have better things to do than beat up on grassroots competitors too so you won't see them at a supersprint. I've never seen an old V8 supercar at any supersprint I've done, and I've done plenty in a couple of states over the past 10 or so years.

exactly the same applies to the Porsche/Carrera Cup cars.

all of this type of hardware is pretty much out of the reach of the typical competitor base involved in grassroots stuff like supersprints.

but you now have 1 solitary F4000/Holden at your NSW supersprints. it doesn't really "fit" there, so its excluded from results, but they still let it run so the driver can get their kicks on the track. Its win-win for all parties. Only problem is someone wants to get the trophy for bashing up these grassroots competitors in their road registered cars...

So the rules will allow the sports sedans, V8 supercar/Fujitsu, 997 Porsche etc, to score outright points. Whether they enter or not is beside the point, the rules will allow it !!!

The other point is that you need to do a bit more homework on F4000/Holden history.

The current tyres available for F4000 are some 4 - 5 secs a lap slower than those available in 2000. A 22 year old, aluminium tub March, is some 5 - 6 secs a lap slower than a 14 year old carbon fibre tub Reynard 95D.

"Only problem is someone wants to get the trophy for bashing up these grassroots competitors in their road registered cars..."

Is not Michelle a 'grassroots' competitor, is not Neill a 'grassroots' competitor, are not the F/vee competitors that ran supersprints a few years ago 'grassroots' competitors ?

Oh - sorry, has to be a closed or road registered car, at least that will stop the skirt from blowing up in front of the eyes.

Erol

[GTR32G]

So the rules will allow the sports sedans, V8 supercar/Fujitsu, 997 Porsche etc, to score outright points. Whether they enter or not is beside the point, the rules will allow it !!!

The other point is that you need to do a bit more homework on F4000/Holden history.

The current tyres available for F4000 are some 4 - 5 secs a lap slower than those available in 2000. A 22 year old, aluminium tub March, is some 5 - 6 secs a lap slower than a 14 year old carbon fibre tub Reynard 95D.

"Only problem is someone wants to get the trophy for bashing up these grassroots competitors in their road registered cars..."

Is not Michelle a 'grassroots' competitor, is not Neill a 'grassroots' competitor, are not the F/vee competitors that ran supersprints a few years ago 'grassroots' competitors ?

Oh - sorry, has to be a closed or road registered car, at least that will stop the skirt from blowing up in front of the eyes.

Erol

I may be wrong as i dont really know how long Michelle has been doing motorsport for but i think i read somwhere 2 years, i know Neil has been around for a few years has had a Capri Sport Sedan that he ran in the Supersprint Chapionship befor the radical, the Championship is made for people who do this for a hobby you can call it grassroots if you want? but rocking up in a $50,000 - $100,000 or alot more perpose built race car that was made to race only is far from grassroots, yes you can run a V8 supercar or Porsche cup car but once again most people dont buy these types of cars for a hobby "grassroots" unless you plan on going places in motorsport. I know you can spend a $150,000 on a R35 GTR and could win but once again would be somones road car and doing superspinting as a hobby. if it was a full on race car R35 i sure they would be running at likes of Targa and such and not worry about supersprinting it.

[Michele]

Guys... can you please stop assuming how much I paid for my car or my race budget? You are all waaaaaaaayyy off the mark and are making a discriminating judgement for all the wrong reasons.

My car was a retired museum piece when I picked it up.

While ever my car is a legitimate CAMS category (and it IS), it should be allowed at a CAMS state level event. May the fastest car/driver combination get outright & thats the way it should be. Otherwise, don't have an Outright title, just have the class titles.

PS: for those who think I am hunting this change for me, let me make it clear in advance that I am unable to make all events, there is NO chance of me getting outright because some of these events clash with my other events. I also want to make it clear that I have no disrespect for the organisers of these days or the competitors. It was a great day with fantastic people.

[hrd-hr30]

While ever my car is a legitimate CAMS category (and it IS), it should be allowed at a CAMS state level event. May the fastest car/driver combination get outright & thats the way it should be. Otherwise, don't have an Outright title, just have the class titles.

it is the outright title from the eligible cars for the series. formula cars are not eligible.

PS: for those who think I am hunting this change for me, let me make it clear in advance that I am unable to make all events, there is NO chance of me getting outright because some of these events clash with my other events.

but you said you didn't want to change it this year - you wanted it changed for 2010??? you must have highly tuned telepathic powers to already know all the dates of the 2010 NSW events!

and for rmsport's benefit, I'll say it again... formula cars are for circuit racing. Formula Vee have their own State Championship where nothing else is eligible. How fking discriminatory! better change their rules too!

The Formula 4000/Holden car Michele has is from a defunct category that no longer has anywhere to race. its only real use is to be converted to a hillclimber. that's why its (relatively) cheap. caveat emptor. but I have no doubt they knew this before they bought it...

Edited March 18, 2009 by hrd-hr30

[Michele]

Listen: v. i. To give close attention with the purpose of hearing; to give ear; to hearken; to attend.

Listen: v. i. To give heed; to yield to advice; to follow admonition; to obey.

I think harry has some pretty good points. I know you argue that it's 'state level' and not a 'club championship'. but tell me what apart from the name is different between the cams state level supersprints and the AROCA/HSV/WRX/SSCC events? I've competed in both and they both seem the same to me. they both cost about the same. they both have the same classes. they both run at the same tracks. and they are both entry level motorsport. which is the key.

I think it's great you get out there in your formula holden and I would never seek to exclude anyone from racing, but you did buy the car knowing what rules and classes it fitted surely? so if you wanted to be eligible for points etc you could have bought a different car and competed for points? supersprints are like regularity. they are in the main there for guys with road cars to get out on the track in a safe and affordable form of motorsport competition. usually the serious guys with dedicated race cars move on to any of the number of local, state or national championships. taking a formula holden to a supersprint to compete against bob smith in his 2 litre 1983 alfa GTV or frank jones in his road going 32 GTR is like bringing a bazooka to an arm wrestle.

I could totally understand if you bought a car that was eligible, and then they changed the rules to exclude you. that would be completely unfair. but that is not what has happened here. sure it's nice to win, but it's hardly a fair fight to bring a car that in top form is capable of near on a minute flat around the GP Circuit to beat cars that at best will get to mid teens. the outright lap record at OP GP I think is still a formula holden at around 61 or 62 seconds.

state level, suburb level, international level whatever level supersprints are an entry level form of motorsport and a formula holden is far from an entry level car. BTW well done on hussling the thing round as quick as you do. people always think it's easy to drive a fast car fast, but it's not. it's far easier to reach the potential of a slow car and look good doing it. 1:15 is quicker than i've ever been around GP circuit that's for sure.

if you really want to run the formula holden in a series then you should talk to AASA and see what is happening with all the guys that were running in ozboss etc. surely those cars aren't all running in 'state level' super sprints around the country.

Type 5 isn't only 5E, it is also 5A, 5B, 5C & 5D - This isn't about ME and I am not the only one who doesn't agree with it. But now it seems its all about Formula Holden. I am not running the whole series, never was (Neil can vouch for that). Yet people are labelling me as a trophy hunter and think Im playing in their playground to steal all their candy. Yet they accuse me of sour grapes and attack me personally, including my finances (inaccurately).

I signed up for AASA and they pulled the pin. I signed up with CAMS when they were doing IRACE... and they pulled the pin. But I am doing IRACE now its gone independant.

[hrd-hr30]

well you and Neil are the only type 5 vehicles in the series... everything else seem to be road registered. no wonder you want in!

there were no formula cars at the CAMS National Supersprint series either, so can we stop hearing about the "disconnect" with that?

you seem to be the only person with a formula car that wants to come and clean up at this grassroots style event. So let's cut the charade about this being for the greater good.

Edited March 18, 2009 by hrd-hr30

[Michele]

well you and Neil are the only type 5 vehicles in the series... everything else seem to be road registered. no wonder you want in!

there were no formula cars at the CAMS National Supersprint series either, so can we stop hearing about the "disconnect" with that?

As I've said before, there are FIVE type 5 cars entered in the Championship and I am aware of a further three who are joining. And you will continue to hear about the disconnect, whether you like it or not until the disconnect is fixed.

And I am not the only person who wants this changed back to the way it was.

[Michele]

it is the outright title from the eligible cars for the series. formula cars are not eligible.

but you said you didn't want to change it this year - you wanted it changed for 2010??? you must have highly tuned telepathic powers to already know all the dates of the 2010 NSW events!

and for rmsport's benefit, I'll say it again... formula cars are for circuit racing. Formula Vee have their own State Championship where nothing else is eligible. How fking discriminatory! better change their rules too!

The Formula 4000/Holden car Michele has is from a defunct category that no longer has anywhere to race. its only real use is to be converted to a hillclimber. that's why its (relatively) cheap. caveat emptor. but I have no doubt they knew this before they bought it...

I won't be able to make all events in 2010 either.

Type 5 isn't only Formula cars... geesh guys, and you say I'm not listening.

[nismoman]

I was car # 551 - S13 Silvia, I fixed the issue with my Championship entry as my form got misplaced at CAMS so I'll be included in the points!! I'd like to say it was my first proper go at Oran Park GP (I entered last year but only did warm up lap before slave cylinder failed!!) and I totally loved it!!!!

I think it is the best circuit in NSW, but I haven't driven Bathurst yet. I've driven Wakefield, Eastern Creek and Oran Park South Circuit a few times, but I think the GP circuit is totally awesome... awesome to the max!!!!

Does anyone else think it's a really awesome and challenging track? I found the only place my car wasn't sliding was down the straight!

The tunnel, the bridge and the roller coaster corners!

Plus that turn 1 kink. Wow! Ultimate hero corner. Nearly as frightening as turn 1 at Eastern Creek. Do people back off or brake for it????

Edited March 18, 2009 by nismoman

[SteadyEddie]

The rules are right. They have been made this way intentionally. I am well aware they're excluded, that's bleedin' obvious, the thing you don't understand is WHY they are excluded. I've explained it. Go and read it from a slightly more objective perspective.

Harry - I dont know what is wrong with you. Do you have a personal issue with Michele? Play the ball, not the player!!!

Now - how can you say the rules are right? you said you have explained it - but you dont also then understand that it has been explained, a number of times - why the rules were changed - CAMS admit they changed them to exclude a certain person from winning all the time. Thats why - so I do understand WHY they excluded type 5. Obviously, because you dont accept this as the reason why - you are the one that doesnt understand WHY. You cant say anything to change this - its FACT -PURE FACT and CAMS admit it!!! dont try and disput it - its FACT!!! did you hear - FACT

So now that I've established whats FACT and what is not....

Again I will say, the concern/fight/whatever you want to call it is about the discrimination or "disconnect" (only because I know you love that word!) that CAMS has created and righting the wrong. The rules use to be all inclusive - but CAMS changed them to discriminate or fix the championship.

Honestly, how can you say thats right? - you cant - your only defense is to attack Michele personally - you dont see what the fight is all about....

Edited March 18, 2009 by SteadyEddie