Hypergear Turbochargers and High flow Services Development thread

[Hanaldo]

you going down the E85 path now Han?

Not just yet, but I decided that now is as good a time as any to make sure I have a setup that can handle it when I do want to go E85. Still not available at the pump here with no sign of that changing any time soon, but I might start buying it in 200L drums.

[GTScotT]

Point 1

Turbo XS split dump pipe with WG divider plate removed

Just jap turnflow cooler

Point 2

... and go on my way to figure out the e85 conundrum

1. these are your problems. you have an open flanged turbo venting to an open void, and then its meant to somehow divide itself into your split dump? Ofcoz its pinging... Its got a restriction and a half right there. Those turn flow coolers are also known to be crap.

2. E85 isnt going to fix anything unless you address point 1 first.

Recommendation:

Sell your turnflow, sell your split dump, buy a JJR bellmouth and a standard 600x300x76 cross flow cooler kit. I am confident this will get you rocking.

[GTScotT]

In case you need help:

http://justjap.com/store/product.php?productid=18178&cat=&page=1

http://justjap.com/store/product.php?productid=16910&cat=&page=1

[copycutter]

is the z32 in the cooler pipe or before the turbo out of curiosity?

It's in the normal position. I have never seen a good reason to change where it sits.

1. these are your problems. you have an open flanged turbo venting to an open void, and then its meant to somehow divide itself into your split dump? Ofcoz its pinging... Its got a restriction and a half right there. Those turn flow coolers are also known to be crap.

2. E85 isnt going to fix anything unless you address point 1 first.

Recommendation:

Sell your turnflow, sell your split dump, buy a JJR bellmouth and a standard 600x300x76 cross flow cooler kit. I am confident this will get you rocking.

Your opinion on the IC is the same as Tao's which is fine, but my way of looking at it is this:

Why would your cooler suggestion (both Just Jap - presumably very similarly made core) be better with pipes going one way instead of the other? If my inlet temps were off the chart wouldn't my tuner have noticed this?

And if my dump pipe was a major source of restriction wouldn't it present itself with odd boost behavior?

Edited March 14, 2012 by copycutter

[lilcrash]

The story is that because the air has to turn 360 degrees it slows down and causes massive pressure drop/restriction.

I've got a jjr turnflow and an atr43 ss1 and I do have a massive restriction. 20 peak dropping to 14psi.(only with the high pressure actuator, with the low pressure actuator my turbo starts at below 7psi and walks up to 18psi, clearly not the intercooler causing it)

Edited March 14, 2012 by lilcrash

[Hanaldo]

I think the possible issue with the IC isn't so much that it isn't cooling the air, but more a potential pressure drop. Have you done a pressure drop test on your intake or at least across the core?

[Rolls]

To prove it, it is as simple as measuring pressure before and after the cooler, the larger the differential pressure the larger the restriction.

Being as most of you guys are running these turbos on the absolute edge of their flow eg 20psi + it means that if the turbo has to push 20psi to flow 18psi of air without that restriction you just aren't ever going to make that power as if you run 22psi you will just start cooking the air too much.

Imo this is the reason why more people seem to not get the results they expect, most people don't buy a garret and run 28psi out the box and expect to make the absolute max, so they can get away with more issues as at say 15psi on a big gt3076 you've got so much room to move on the compressor island a few restrictions or shitty parts and you can just keep running it harder to make the power you want, it is only when pushing the absolute limit of the compressor you'll reach the problem of not making the max power possible with that turbine/compressor.

At least that is what I think.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Rolls

[dori34]

Copycutter; the only way to know for sure is try it with a FMIC & split dump and results may speak for themselves (or not).

to everyone with this turbo, that have the same/similar power as copycutter, were they running a return flow or fmic?

if it was a fmic, and was running a split dump, what else would Hypergear suggest for the reason to be so down on power compared to the test car?? surely the tuner (if respectable) will know how to tune it properly and results wouldn't be that far off.

its still a mixed bag of results and no where near the test car results on PULP.

i suspect there may be more to the test car that is hidden from the public....

[copycutter]

Ok the pressure drop reasoning makes more sense.

Unfortunately with not a great deal of mechanical skill I have no way of measuring this myself, and I've kind of blown the whole budget to get to this point so I can't really chase up more changes or buy any new parts for a while until the last splurge is paid off since it was unfortunately a bit higher than expected.

I did think if any there would potentially be a restriction with the split dump pipe more-so than the intercooler, but my tuner mentioned neither, aside from the fact that my car seemed very more happy to detonate rather than co-operate.

If I was to consider changing the intercooler, wouldn't I then be silly to purchase another JJ china made one, having sort of had the "you get what you pay for" mantra forced down my throat the first time around?

[Manuel Kasko]

i suspect there may be more to the test car that is hidden from the public....

Highly doubt this they have no reason to hide things.

People have posted results close to test car so do you suggest they are hiding things?

[copycutter]

Copycutter; the only way to know for sure is try it with a FMIC & split dump and results may speak for themselves (or not).

This is exactly the problem I have. It may work and cost $1000 parts + $500 tuning. Or not...

Or I could make the car more resistant to pinging by adding e85 (which the tuner believes is a good option) by simply taking a few jerry cans back to the dyno.

But, like GTST Scott said, this may not work either.

[rondofj]

its still a mixed bag of results and no where near the test car results on PULP.

i suspect there may be more to the test car that is hidden from the public....

With so many cars running HG turbos not making the 'rated' numbers nowadays, one can only begin to doubt and think wherein the problem lies. How do you all know that the test car can not be running a 3.1L stroker kit (to be taken as a mere suggestion) to punch out those dyno figures so easily?

[Rolls]

With so many cars running HG turbos not making the 'rated' numbers nowadays, one can only begin to doubt and think wherein the problem lies. How do you all know that the test car can not be running a 3.1L stroker kit (to be taken as a mere suggestion) to punch out those dyno figures so easily?

Read what I wrote.

Also occams razor, the simplest answer is usually the most correct. Is this a big scam and elaborate secret? Or does your intercooler/dump just have issues?

Edited March 14, 2012 by Rolls

[Hanaldo]

Copycutter; the only way to know for sure is try it with a FMIC & split dump and results may speak for themselves (or not).

to everyone with this turbo, that have the same/similar power as copycutter, were they running a return flow or fmic?

if it was a fmic, and was running a split dump, what else would Hypergear suggest for the reason to be so down on power compared to the test car?? surely the tuner (if respectable) will know how to tune it properly and results wouldn't be that far off.

its still a mixed bag of results and no where near the test car results on PULP.

i suspect there may be more to the test car that is hidden from the public....

I also wonder about this, but Stao has been more than helpful with my problems so far so I give him the benefit of the doubt. I was really just wondering whether the forged pistons in his car mean his car is being tuned more aggressively compared to standard engine cars, hence the higher results.

In any case, it's unfair for me to judge the turbo as it is on my car until I've had a chance to get it back on the dyno without any problems.

[Hanaldo]

With so many cars running HG turbos not making the 'rated' numbers nowadays, one can only begin to doubt and think wherein the problem lies. How do you all know that the test car can not be running a 3.1L stroker kit (to be taken as a mere suggestion) to punch out those dyno figures so easily?

Lol, well for started a 3.1L engine has a MUCH different dyno chart than a 2.5L, there is no possibility of hiding that. Not too mention Stao is perfectly happy to take his potential customers for a ride in his car.

No, I don't think that is a fair suggestion at all.

[dori34]

i think its just the fact that you're running a return flow.

any decent FMIC (JJR is fine) will do.

Highly doubt this they have no reason to hide things.

People have posted results close to test car so do you suggest they are hiding things?

know of a few syd cars that were down on power, even with respectable tuners and decent setup.

20-30rwkw down, even with 3" metal intake, bellmouth and FMIC.

[GTScotT]

Your opinion on the IC is the same as Tao's which is fine, but my way of looking at it is this:

Why would your cooler suggestion (both Just Jap - presumably very similarly made core) be better with pipes going one way instead of the other? If my inlet temps were off the chart wouldn't my tuner have noticed this?

And if my dump pipe was a major source of restriction wouldn't it present itself with odd boost behavior?

I wont go into too much detail re the cooler, but its been documented elsewhere that they suck when trying to reach 300rwkw.

And your making such a noob assumption on the dump pipe, the split dumps normally cause boost control issues when the wastegate flapper fouls on the divider or flange itself. I dont know how else to describe it to you.. The back of the G3 turbo is completely open. It has an odd jellybean shaped outlet identical to the OEM dump pattern. You are using a split dump without the divider, because obviously the divider doesnt fit. Unbolt your dump and you will see the problem, the gas comes out of the back of the turbo and more or less hits a wall, except for the small round holes for the dump and wastegate tubes.

Dump pipes 101 is that the exhaust gas EXPANDS extremely rapidly as soon as it exits the back of the turbo. This is why there are good gains to be had in running 3.5-4" dumps even if your system is only 3".

That being said, the gas comes out the back of your turbo, into the empty area in the flange plate (and is trying its best to expand right about now) and then it has to find its way through little exhaust tubes that have a flat solid face around them. There is nothing directing the gas flow into that part of the pipe, some of the gas luckily will go straight into the tube and the rest will crash against the flat surface of the dump flange. That then pressurizes the area and the gas will forcibly find its way down the dump tube.

I think thats your main problem. The flat surface concept applies to the turnflow cooler also, they just arent aerodynamic enough for what they are IMHO.

Someone back me up please.

[Rolls]

Someone back me up please.

You could model it but it is pretty blatantly obvious to me that it would cause a restriction. Expansion then compression again, it is going to cause massive turbulence along with the sharp angles.

[Birds]

copycutter, ditch the split dump. It may not be the cause of your problems, but, I don't care what the brand is, they are CRAP. I ran one on my car and they cause all sorts of problems...like jamming my wastegate flap shut and allowing my actuator to make unlimited boost / hit R&R. This is probably the reason why your initial high pressure actuator tune/run went on climbing past 23psi. Even after removing the wastegate divider and honing out the split dump I couldn't get the thing to boost properly and it ended up fucking my actuator.

$600 later and I had a custom turbo back exhaust with a true 3 inch bellmouth...car ran SO much better. There's no point having a 3 inch exhaust if you have that piece of wank clogging up the works, your turbo needs to BREATHE man.

Sell your turnflow, sell your split dump, buy a JJR bellmouth and a standard 600x300x76 cross flow cooler kit. I am confident this will get you rocking.

+1, except some of the more expensive return flow coolers have been known to perform without issue <300rwkw. I have a Blitz CS return flow, so I guess we will see how that pans out next week.

its still a mixed bag of results and no where near the test car results on PULP.

i suspect there may be more to the test car that is hidden from the public....

It's a mixed bag, but the turbos are all made the same and Stao has previously offered people to exchange with the exact same turbo off his car. The biggest variable in it all is that you have ~15 year old cars in all sorts of condition, with a variety of different modifications...and you're expecting homogeneous results? Gimme a break. Have you seen standard R33 GTS-Ts dynoed back to back? Some of them have 20rwkw variance on standard boost.

Stao has posted big dyno results from customer cars too, not just his test car. It's unfortunately natural that this thread is going to be full of people looking for answers to their down-on-power woes, whilst those who are happy with what they are making will seldom come in here and complain about it...giving the impression that HG HQ is a sandwich short of a picnic. I don't see Garrett or Kando coming on here and offering their help to resolve power issues that may not be the fault of the turbo, which was one of the factors that made me go with a HG.

With so many cars running HG turbos not making the 'rated' numbers nowadays, one can only begin to doubt and think wherein the problem lies. How do you all know that the test car can not be running a 3.1L stroker kit (to be taken as a mere suggestion) to punch out those dyno figures so easily?

I drove Stao's car and it certainly didn't feel anything special off boost, no secret squirrels there IMO. A laggy ass turbo and a huge power rush at the end of it, it felt like a 300rwkw+ 2.5L car. Chequered tuning no doubt knows the car very well and has not commented on anything special about it. Hub dyno vs dynamics maybe? There's another variable. As Rolls said, people are expecting too much from too little. HG build responsive turbos and the test result is often a maxed out efficiency range...you can't expect to make the same power when you don't have anywhere near the same setup as Stao. He's built his car using many hours on the dyno to get the most out of his turbos.

[Manuel Kasko]

This is exactly the problem I have. It may work and cost $1000 parts + $500 tuning. Or not...

Or I could make the car more resistant to pinging by adding e85 (which the tuner believes is a good option) by simply taking a few jerry cans back to the dyno.

But, like GTST Scott said, this may not work either.

All your doing is masking up a problem with your setup if there is one. (I could be wrong and the forged pistons in the test car makes it epic)

Is it not possible to borrow a mates FMIC and dump pipe for a weekend?

I pulled my dump and FMIC off in 2 hours or so and it was my first time with a mate helping.