Hypergear Turbochargers and High flow Services Development thread

[Harey]

Had a great afternoon at the Hypergear workshop yesterday! Stao showed me all these new turbos and they look great. He had taken the SS1 turbo off his project car and installed an ATR43G3 with a single FNT nozzle. The car was not tuned yet so I wasnt able to give it hell but instead test the low down responsiveness. I have an ATR43G3 installed on mine without nozzles and I can honestly say there was a noticeable difference. The pickup from 2500rpm was noticeably improved and you could hear/feel the turbo start at around 3,000rpm. Not heavily of course at 3,000rpm but a noticeable improvement till 4,000rpm where I stopped.

I had been having an issue with my ATR43G3 that I could not hold more than 15psi up top in the rev range. I had tried many things using those wastegate studs, different actuators etc. Stao managed to get a hold of a super stiff actuator. We could not move the rod more than 1mm haha. So there was basically no preload. Instant result 17psi up top! Woohoo! I stopped there as its only tuned for 15psi up top and there is plenty of room for some more preload. The different between 15 and 17 was very noticeable! Now off to the tuners, although I am very tempted to get some nozzles installed on mine first! Stao also sold me an adjustable exhaust cam gear.

I will post up full results when I have them.

[GeorgesR34]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPsoEyb55qo

can stock turbo by high flowed with this core? how much does it cost?

[kwickr33]

Did you end up getting that ball bearing turbo tested today? any results?

[hypergear]

Yes tuned today pulled 313rwkws made no differences in response, torque or top end power compare to bush.

Ball bearing turbos appears to spin easily down low or off the car.

Shaft in a Bush bearing turbo rests on brass bushes when car's powered off, obviously greater friction at that point trying to spinning it. How ever once oil pressure presents and increases, turbine shaft would be sitting on a layer of pressurized oil.

By that stage, the rolling object of a bush bearing setup is liquid, ball bearing setup is still balls. Impact of rolling object at that stage is almost none.

Up to date, the best bolton option for a stock Rb25det are the ATR43SS series, I will sort out some thing to have them produced in small batches, which should drop lot of overhead costs. Will discounted prices when it happens.

[Hanaldo]

Right, well I finally got my car back from my tuner today. It had been with him for the last 2 days while he tried to figure out what was going on with my car.

Some of you may have seen the dyno chart I posted of my car back when I first got my ATR43G2 installed and tuned. This is that graph of how things were when I first got it back:

So I eventually got my car back in yesterday for my tuner to drop the exhaust and check the tune. Basically it made no difference, this is the chart of the run done without the exhaust: (It's a bit hard to read, but the number up the top says 295rwhp@ 16psi)

He tried doing multiple runs with and without the exhaust without much difference between them. He also looked for vacuum leaks or anything that could be causing similar effects before deciding that my car is in perfect running condition. He did a compression test on the engine which came up as 165psi across all 6 cylinders (give or take 2psi). Did a pressure test across the intercooler but said that was no issue. He tried running more boost but said it just caused the engine to ping because the turbo built up so much heat. He just couldn't change the result no matter what he tried.

So really I'm still left highly disappointed with the result. I'm not going to pursue this any further, this turbo has already cost me over $4000 including dyno time. I'm done with it, going to go in a different direction now.

Edited March 30, 2011 by Hanaldo

[hypergear]

ATR43G2 .63 is rated to about 450HP, it should make close to 250rwkws mark around 16psi. Figures looks very low and very laggy. Doesn't seems to be right.

Bring it back for a check up or I can upgrade it to a G3 profile in .82 rear and .70 comp free, Which most customers are making around the 300rwkws marks.

Any way, I just had a G2 .63 installed which is due to a tune on Friday, I will post up my result with my timing and fuel map for a comparison.

[Hanaldo]

Is there anyone on here from Perth using an ATR turbo that can show me their results? Had a look in the RB25 turbo upgrade thread but couldn't find any posts from Perth. I want to see these figures on a Dyno Dynamics dyno.

[hypergear]

Also referring to your email. Your stock OP6 Neo turbo only made 180rwkws on 14psi which that should be way over 200rwkws any where else. I'm not sure if its a low reading dyno or some thing is really wrong with the turbo or some thing else.

unsure what the boost curve is like but It looks like its down on power every where. Was this with the updated .63 rear housing or the older version?

Dynodynamic dyno result and video footage in perth (I think its the same tuner as yours):

Page 64: ATR43G3 297rwkws VCT off 285rwkws VCT on

Page 63: Dynodynamics dyno 291rwkws ATR43G3

There are 2x more can't find them

[Hanaldo]

Hyperdrives dyno is known to read a bit lower, I'm not so worried about the number. If I look in the WA power registry at graphs of cars with similar mods to mine when it had the stock turbo they also only made about 250rwhp on a Dyno Dynamics dyno. That's why I want to see someone from Perth using one of these turbos, so I can see how they went with it.

What I'm disappointed with is the seat of the pants feeling. It doesn't feel fast. It feels like the graph looks, you can feel the turbo at 4000rpm and then it just goes flat and feels like it has stopped boosting. It doesn't hold boost very well, even using the wastegate studs and with the high pressure actuator and Greddy Profec 2.

I don't know where else to look except at the turbo. We have checked everything that could cause it to hit a wall and flatten out like that. The only thing left to try would be to unbolt the turbo and try a different one, but quite frankly I'm annoyed at having spent so much money on this turbo as is. All my intake piping had to be custom made to make this turbo fit, now I would have to redo all that if I want to fit a different turbo.

Looking back, this turbo hasn't achieved any of the objectives I bought it for. I wanted a cost effective alternative to one of the big brand name Jap turbos, but now this turbo has cost me more than what I would have paid for a HKS or Garrett. I wanted something that bolted onto the stock setup and looked relatively stock, but that went out the window with all the custom piping, now the turbo is the first thing you notice when you open the bonnet. And I wanted a turbo that was responsive and could make at least 350rwhp. No comment needed.

[Hanaldo]

Also referring to your email. Your stock OP6 Neo turbo only made 180rwkws on 14psi which that should be way over 200rwkws any where else. I'm not sure if its a low reading dyno or some thing is really wrong with the turbo or some thing else.

unsure what the boost curve is like but It looks like its down on power every where. Was this with the updated .63 rear housing or the older version?

Dynodynamic dyno result and video footage in perth (I think its the same tuner as yours):

Page 64: ATR43G3 297rwkws VCT off 285rwkws VCT on

Page 63: Dynodynamics dyno 291rwkws ATR43G3

There are 2x more can't find them

That page 63 chart is in Canberra, page 64 chart and video is from Queensland?

Also, no idea on what version .63 rear it is using. I bought it back in November?

Edited March 30, 2011 by Hanaldo

[hypergear]

This Friday I will test out the current model ATR43G2, I will post up the result with all tunning data. If you are happy with the out come, I will take it off the car and swap it with the one that you've got. If you still have issues then we know its not turbo related.

[Hanaldo]

Fair enough offer mate, I appreciate that. Very hard for me to take you up on though, my car is my daily. Removing my turbo and then sending it away to you and waiting for the new turbo to arrive, means I won't have a car for at least 2 weeks. Given I drive 2hrs to uni everyday, I won't be able to go without a car for that long.

I think I just have to cop this result and move on.

[hypergear]

We produce around 200 brand new turbochargers every year in Melbourne along with rebuilds and high flows. There is a possibiliy that 1 or 2 out of the lot is odd that goes under warranty.

We can work some thing out to have the replacement sent first, so you don't left without a car.

In the past I've had customers with:

Intake pipe sucking shut underboost

Coil pack issues

People run stuffed metal intake pipes issues

pistons issues

Engine head issues

Turbo oil delivery issues

Split dump pipe issues

Ebay dump pipe issues

Cat issues

Collapsed Muffler issues

Intake system leaking issues

Mechanics left gloves in intake pipe issues

Mechanics left clogh in cooler pipe issues

Turbo Oil drain silicon filled issues

Turbo oil drain bend/kinked issues

List goes on, and the turbocharger is the only part that people blames.

So in this case you can have a fully working and tested turbocharger with all tuning data, that we know works. I would perfer every customer getting their expected output.

[hypergear]

From yesterdays installation: Hard intake pipe to suit stock air box.

This is a intake pipe for all ATR43G1/G2/SS-x units, can be used to work with high flows as well. Its made from:

2x 3inches 45 degrees silicon hoses, 1x 90 degrees 3inches metal pipe and 1x flange adaptor (same as stock pod adaptor). Every thing appeard to be pretty stock on turbo side.

Haven't had the car tunned yet, on road it feels very smooth and responsive similar to SS-2. I'm expecting it to sit around the 260rwkws mark. I will also do a test on the impact of having AFM on front of the turbo.

Hanaldo: The one you've got with wastegate controller would be the late 2010 model same as what I've got on now, but it doesn't feel like yours. Please do a quick check on your actuator and make sure the wastegate is shut with actuator preloaded, it looks like if there's a wastegate leak, instructions are on page 49.

[XRATED]

Looking back, this turbo hasn't achieved any of the objectives I bought it for. I wanted a cost effective alternative to one of the big brand name Jap turbos, but now this turbo has cost me more than what I would have paid for a HKS or Garrett. I wanted something that bolted onto the stock setup and looked relatively stock, but that went out the window with all the custom piping, now the turbo is the first thing you notice when you open the bonnet. And I wanted a turbo that was responsive and could make at least 350rwhp. No comment needed.

Mate, modifing anything is a long, hard and expensive road. HP costs money... simple as that. Modifing cars, cost money... When you have been modding cars long enough- these things happen.

To be honest, you have allready had more offers for help/support than you would recieve from allmost any other brand or performance part company...

Also, if your going to modify your daily.... you HAVE to expect to organise alternative transport- your dreaming if you expect anything else.

By the look of your dyno graph, there seems to be something amiss too... you havent covered half the possible issues.

I wish you the best of luck and suggest you take the offer to test your turbo, before you start bagging a product, possibly to find out your wrong.

\

J.

[Harey]

I will also do a test on the impact of having AFM on front of the turbo.

Very keen to see results to this!

[Harey]

Fair enough offer mate, I appreciate that. Very hard for me to take you up on though, my car is my daily. Removing my turbo and then sending it away to you and waiting for the new turbo to arrive, means I won't have a car for at least 2 weeks. Given I drive 2hrs to uni everyday, I won't be able to go without a car for that long.

I think I just have to cop this result and move on.

Understand your frustration, I have never done major modifications to a car and had everything work well. I had spark plug issues and intake pipe issues on the latest set of mods.

Are you able to put up the details of your setup so we can possibly help? How did you spend $4k to install a Hypergear turbo? The dump pipe is skyline flange so dump pipes are easy to get and cheap, no new oil or coolant lines are required (just the 1 supplied), plus my standard intercooler piping fitted with very minor mods. The only thing I can think of is the intake pipe? But surely that wasnt super expensive plus its required with any turbo??

[Rolls]

I wish you the best of luck and suggest you take the offer to test your turbo, before you start bagging a product, possibly to find out your wrong.

\

J.

It looks laggy based on the model turbo and the power it is making, as if the wastegate is leaking, however the fact it pings over 16psi sounds more alarming, mixtures look good but is it possible that overall they are fine and injectors are clogged causing a few to run lean.

Surely you should be able to run 18+ psi without pinging if you pull timing and richen it up. I've got the tiniest high flow ever that is making 18psi by 3k ish with no pinging or heat issues what so ever.

There is definitely something wrong there but I would be looking else where before the turbo.

Edited March 31, 2011 by Rolls

[GeorgesR34]

Hanaldo, there are also plenty of people runs big branded turbos spent heaps more that aren't getting any results. I also run a ATR43G2 in .63 (op6) rear housing pulls all the way to red and its just about the same response as my stock Neo turbo. But on the same time its also possible that you've got an "odd" turbo or a "odd" engine or "odd" what ever. At least you’ve been offered a fully tested working replacement ruling out the most suspicious part.

Stao what time will you be at Status?, I want to come and see the tune.

[Hanaldo]

Mate, modifing anything is a long, hard and expensive road. HP costs money... simple as that. Modifing cars, cost money... When you have been modding cars long enough- these things happen.

To be honest, you have allready had more offers for help/support than you would recieve from allmost any other brand or performance part company...

Also, if your going to modify your daily.... you HAVE to expect to organise alternative transport- your dreaming if you expect anything else.

By the look of your dyno graph, there seems to be something amiss too... you havent covered half the possible issues.

I wish you the best of luck and suggest you take the offer to test your turbo, before you start bagging a product, possibly to find out your wrong.

\

J.

Yeh don't get me wrong here, I'm not trying to bag out Hypergear. Stao has been very helpful in trying to sort out this whole thing, I respect him a lot for that. The customer service is amazing. I thought my requests were fair, I just want to see someones results over here in Perth so I can get an idea of how it should be.

I am open to suggestions of what could be wrong other than the turbo. My tuner, Andrew, (from here on in going to just call him by his name, writing 'my tuner' all the time is getting old lol) and I have been trying things to see if it makes a difference but nothing we do changes anything. Andrew tried getting advice from another respected tuner in Perth (Mick at Ovaboost for those in the know) to see if he had any ideas, but he couldn't get any different results either.

Andrew told me from the start that he didn't think the turbo would be very good, I was very keen to prove him wrong based on the results I have seen on here. He believes the results I have seen were obtained on a hub dyno and as such I will not be able to get similar figures. I told him not to worry about the final number so much, I really just wanted a nicely shaped power curve.

Understand your frustration, I have never done major modifications to a car and had everything work well. I had spark plug issues and intake pipe issues on the latest set of mods.

Are you able to put up the details of your setup so we can possibly help? How did you spend $4k to install a Hypergear turbo? The dump pipe is skyline flange so dump pipes are easy to get and cheap, no new oil or coolant lines are required (just the 1 supplied), plus my standard intercooler piping fitted with very minor mods. The only thing I can think of is the intake pipe? But surely that wasnt super expensive plus its required with any turbo??

The turbo has so far cost me $3950, that's including time on the dyno trying to get it sorted not just installing it. Installation and initial tune cost me $1600 including complete custom intake and intercooler plumbing. I had to get everything custom made, not just the hard intake pipe. Since then it has cost me $700 in dyno time and $200 in labor time.

My setup details:

Stock standard RB25DET Neo

PWR 650CC injectors

Walbro GSS-342 (rewired to run direct from battery)

Greddy FMIC

Full 3" turbo back straight cut custom exhaust with high flow cat and bellmouth dump pipe (Was actually quieter without the exhaust on, and as results show there is no restriction here)

Apexi pod filter

Z32 AFM

3" custom metal intake pipe

Stock GTR bov

NGK Iridiums gapped to 0.8mm

Greddy Profec II EBC

ATR43G2 .63

NIStune ECU

I think that's it...

It looks laggy based on the model turbo and the power it is making, as if the wastegate is leaking, however the fact it pings over 16psi sounds more alarming, mixtures look good but is it possible that overall they are fine and injectors are clogged causing a few to run lean.

Surely you should be able to run 18+ psi without pinging if you pull timing and richen it up. I've got the tiniest high flow ever that is making 18psi by 3k ish with no pinging or heat issues what so ever.

There is definitely something wrong there but I would be looking else where before the turbo.

Injectors are fine, had them ultrasonically cleaned and flow tested and they came up at 98-99% across all 6.

Andrew did try pulling timing to stop it pinging but it just didn't want to make more power, the power dipped when he pulled timing no matter how much boost he ran.

Another strange thing, my O2 sensor just won't work with the new turbo. Andrew has disconnected it and tuned around it because the car just won't run with it connected.