Small Turbo Upgrade Question

[ClutchBurndout-:(]

Hey all, just curious, is there any small turbo uprades out there that you don’t need to alter much to the rest of the car? I have a fmic, pod, 3" exhaust, 3"dump. Can u buy any small turbos (preferably from garrett) where I can just wack it in, retune it, and off i go? even if its the same size turbo, but a roller bearing one would seffice. cheers

[The Dan]

Your turbo is already ball bearing.

Highflowing the standard turbo would be a start. Around $1750-$1850 to do this so it's probably going to be one of the dearer 'bolt on' options.

Garrett are currently working on a bolt on option for the Skyline but I still have to make the intake hard pipes and adaptors for them before they can be sent off for casting.

The options for this come as GT2871, GT2876, GT3071 and GT3076.

The 2871 being the closest option to standard but able to run up to around 1.6bar of boost safely.

Other options are the Hypergear turbos, KKR turbos, or the Precision Highflows which use a GT cartridge also.

These are all very close to bolt on options but require some adaptation to the intake system to get them to fit. I have had customers with the Precision and KKR turbos with great results and over 12 months of driving now without issues.

I have never used the Hypergear version.

The Hypergear and KKR options are probably your cheapest ones and you should be able to get them on including everything for ~$1000

The Garrett kits are still a couple of months away and will retail for up near $2400 I think. They will come with all the braided lines and piping kit to suit everything.

For a complete bolt on application, though, you can't go past a factory high flow for quality and reliability. You just pay a fair bit more for the experience.

[R31Nismoid]

Just to note the cheaper hi-flows are bush bearing, and not ball bearing.

Hence the price difference of around $700 in most cases.

[The Dan]

Just to note the cheaper hi-flows are bush bearing, and not ball bearing.

Hence the price difference of around $700 in most cases.

Yeah sorry I forgot to mention that.

But IMO bush does not equal inferior. They have their applications but need to be well maintained and are less hard wearing so gunk in the oil can be quite damaging.

[R31Nismoid]

I wont go as far as to say that either… however there are some things that need to be considered.

Newer Garrett wheels often operate better/require higher RPM, and this can potentially cause issue with bush bearing as they do not like the much higher speeds that ball bearing's can often handle.

Issue there is some hi-flows might use newer Garrett wheels, and if your going to run them as designed, then the extra speeds might well kill the turbo. It probably wouldn’t happen very soon, but in the long run I can see some of these cheaper hi-flows showing issues in a couple of years perhaps.

Another one - a lot of bush are oil cooled only, some are water cooled of course. So again, RPM and heat a no-no!

Also there is more oil around the bearings in a bush type, and more oil will inadvertadly mean more drag as a consequene which will hurt transient & response in on/off throttle in some circumstances, I think this would be more noticeable as there is more turbo RPM involved

Turbos are a fine art

[ClutchBurndout-:(]

ok well, im not realy into racing, this is my day to day car which I like to give a squirt every now and then, im after something reliable, the ball bearing seems good to me because from what im hearing, they are reliable but arnt good for on off spooling, which im fine with because i dont race, im quite willing to spend the extra dollers if it means reliability, but im not willing to muck around with any of the car, so do you guys think i should wait untill these new garrett turbos come out? or go with something cheaper like a KKR or another above mentioned brand? but i cant stress enough, i do not want to replace my turbo in a years time lol. what do u guys reckon?

[ARETHT3]

GOod Post was just about to post another similar thread but read this one...

Im aslo after a similar setup and am trying to do all bolt on so i can do the work myself.

Im currently running 216 rwhp with mods including exaust, dumppipe FMIC, K&N 10psi and and SAFCII.

Im looking for around 300rwhp and have been reading threads for weeks..

So far i have come to the following conclusion to build my power up

Hypergear Highflow approx $1000 (bolt on)

s15 injectors $500 (Stright swap)

Toemi Fuel Pump $550 (bolt on)

Power FC $1500

Z32 AFM $250

THe hypergear turbos are direct placement... u will require a new oil feed line and a 14psi actuator but can all be provided for around $1000. They seem to be OK although there isnt allot of info on them because of their bearing setup. but i read somewhere that for extra cpl hundred dollars they can put a full ball bearing system in.

My question is can i just run the hypergear turbo and make this power with the mods ive got already and invest later down the track in the other components. Will i have to get anything else bar a retune

Im at the understanding that Stock AFM and pump and injectors are good for 220-230 RWKW which is approx 300rwhp

WHat PSI would i need to run roughly to get 300rwhp..

Edited March 23, 2009 by ARETHT3

[Douse]

never mind...

Edited March 23, 2009 by Douse

[hypergear]

Well the other slightly cheaper option is to high flow your existing turbo with Garrett GT2871Rs CHRA. The BB CHRA will spool up slightly quicker as there is less friction. The downside on a ball bearing turbo is in the oil purity but you can run in line filters to solve this issue.

As in terms of sleeve bearing turbos not be able to spin at high RPM this is not true. It depends on how much tolerance on the balancing, the material mixture and treatment of the bearings, seals, and the perfect design of the actual turbo. That determines the performance and quality. There is no reasons that a sleeve bearing turbo should not perform as in the same standard as a ball bearing turbo.

if 230rwkws is all you looking for its achievable with our high flow (date is with slight exhaust leak):

[kccortez]

definately go for the hypergear. its not 100% bolt on, and you need a new oil line, but after a few months of running one im glad i went through with them. The turbo really pulls well! Mine is slightly more laggy than standard though i did get the atr28/g3 which can handle 450hp.

People have their opinions but as a hypergear customer i can say for the price and service their is not much that can touch them!!!

[R31Nismoid]

Do you have 360 degree thrust bearings and so on to allow the high shaft speeds, or is that additional cost along with the rest to get it to hold the higher speeds?

What wheels get used also plays a factor, i cant see new gen Garrett wheels being the same price as the older gen ones.

So by the end of it you could virtually buy a ball bearing for the extra costs associated.

Like I said, and by your own admission less friction is more spool. More RPM there is, worse it will be.

I'm yet to see a $1000 turbo outperform a $1700 one regardless of "how similar" they may be

For the record, I've never heard of a turbo dying because of oil quality, I mean unless your using oil from a chip cooker that's really not a downside.

[mystery_kid]

i was talking about this just today with a mate, i want something that i don't need to replace injectors and would just get some kind of piggy back tune rather than replacing ecu's and shit.

rather than highflowing a stock turbo, i'd rather something that has similar response as the stock turbo which for me is for an rb20 turbo. highflowing = lag imo

[R31Nismoid]

RB25 turbo is similar to RB20 stock, well, similar as it gets. hehe

[hypergear]

Ball bearing mainly fail from oil contamination we've had few come in for repairs and even had one failed on our test car. They all Garrett turbos, Its not the quality of the oil. Its more due to the "mass" travelling with the oil. They needs to be filtered out before enter the turbo. How ever this does not happen often.

I guess the main idea of going through the high flow is to get rid of the stock ceramic turbine wheel. 360 degrees thrust bearing does not make the shaft spin faster, Its more reliable at high boost. For sleeve bearings turbos out perform BB turbo. here is a classic example:

Our ATR28SS vs stock RB25Neo BB turbo:

[The Dan]

I've never heard of a turbo dying because of oil quality, I mean unless your using oil from a chip cooker that's really not a downside.

Run GTX2 in your engine and leave it there for 15,000km before changing it. Do that for 12-18 months and you will see what I mean with oil quality.

[ClutchBurndout-:(]

ok well, by the sounds of it, hypergear are the go, and i just need to worry about the oil lines? what turbo are you running KCCORTEZ?

[Fry_33]

Since this is about smal turbos I thought I'd show the results of my R33 with GT2530 as a comparison. Z32 afm, injectors and fuel pump changed to make sure it's got plenty of room and not running on component limits.

Airbox restriction is stopping it from making more power, should get 220rwkw or something similar when that's sorted.

[R31Nismoid]

Ball bearing mainly fail from oil contamination we've had few come in for repairs and even had one failed on our test car. They all Garrett turbos, Its not the quality of the oil. Its more due to the "mass" travelling with the oil. They needs to be filtered out before enter the turbo. How ever this does not happen often.

I guess the main idea of going through the high flow is to get rid of the stock ceramic turbine wheel. 360 degrees thrust bearing does not make the shaft spin faster, Its more reliable at high boost. For sleeve bearings turbos out perform BB turbo. here is a classic example:

Our ATR28SS vs stock RB25Neo BB turbo:

Are they the same model of turbo, with the same wheels...?

Because otherwise, this is another basically useless comparison...

And the 360degree gives better load tolerance, which you is very much related to RPM.

Run GTX2 in your engine and leave it there for 15,000km before changing it. Do that for 12-18 months and you will see what I mean with oil quality.

Ye. chip cooker oil

[R31Nismoid]

Since this is about smal turbos I thought I'd show the results of my R33 with GT2530 as a comparison. Z32 afm, injectors and fuel pump changed to make sure it's got plenty of room and not running on component limits.

Airbox restriction is stopping it from making more power, should get 220rwkw or something similar when that's sorted.

2530 is love!

1.2bar in before 3000rpm

[Fry_33]

2530 is love!

1.2bar in before 3000rpm

Yeah, it's good, just have to be careful in the wet Took the airbox lid off and it picked up 13rwkw up high straight away and even a touch through the rest of the midrange. Don't really want to put a pod back on so I'll need to figure out what I'm going to do to the airbox now.. may even spool slightly faster?

Edited March 23, 2009 by Fry_33