Custom Hand Made Water Pump Impellor & Cylinder Coolant Bleeds

[webber]

Hey guys, i have had the priveledge of meeting a guy by the name of John Bennet, who has worked on most engines imaginable, including RB20, 25, 26, 30 & SR's etc

He is well known for most things he has done, building thousands of modified water pumps for different vehicles through his company ecotrans (i think based out of tullamarine). I also believe he founded Advanced Vehicle Technologies, who have developed a way to convert diesel engines to run on LPG, i have seen a John Deere engine that he modified, and he CNC machined a bolt on housing and drive assembly to convert the injector pump drive to run a common falcon Distributor. but enough about the man.

1). Now he re-manufactures water pumps that look more like the impellor on a Industrial pump. They are designed to catch the water and forward it on without cavataing the water against the cavity in the block. (i will post up a pic of an impellor shortly).

2). He also specialises in setting up individual cylinder bleeds that are tapped into the head above the exhaust ports, and in are designed to bleed any pockets of air/steam that become trapped in the cylinder heads especially around the exhaust ports, and bleed them and any coolant into a custom seperator / breather tank system.

Now when i said RB25 he said yeah, no problems. He has heads of most vehicles cut up to locate the water galleries etc.

I believe his theories are on equalising head temperatures, eliminating hot spots and creating thermal efficeincy within an engine. He said he has done a fair bit of work on RB and SR engines with great success for track etc.

My question is if i have no real cooling issues present (have Nismo thermostat, 50mm koyo radiator, silicone hoses etc). I like things be precautious and if i can help my engine last a little longer and produce a little more consistant power, then i'll be in on it. I don't know how ineffective RB cooling systems are or are not, but i have seen them capable of allot more power than i have. I just thought the better cooling above the exhaust valve guides might make them less likely to crack and etc as they seem to be prone to.

In a topic i previously read regarding cooling and mentioning Johns work:

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/Co...wer-t62818.html

Skylinekid

The N1 water pump is not designed to stop cavitation, it is designed to slow dow nthe movment of water at high rpm. The race teams found that with the standard pump the water moved so fast around the engine that it didn't absorb the heat. So they came up with a "cut back" style of water pump that slowed the water movement down. This is good for a circuit race car that has sustained high rpm, but not so good for a road that sees lots of low rpm. I would never put an N1 pump in a car that sees any road work.

My thought was, prehaps one of these pumps with a larger pully to slow it down a bit.???

Just wondering if anyone knows anyone who has used any of his products on RB's or SR's, or if anyone uses them themselves, or if anyone else has thoughts on the subject.

[The Dan]

I would like to add, respectfully, that the cooling system is not exactly a weak spot for an RB. While improvements can be made, there are very basic steps that are fairly cheap to accomplish this.

Furthermore, cracking valve guides is not a common occurrence so I would have to ask why you are worried about them cracking.

I have seen bronze guides fail on 5 laps of QR in 4 or more different cars but never ever seen the cast guides crack. If they have been setup incorrectly or something else in the valvetrain comes adrift, then maybe.

Under drive pulley will achieve the same result as an N1 water pump.

and Redline Water wetter will decrease the surface tension of the water by decreasing cavitation.

[T04GTR]

very interesting. ive not blown a headgasket yet. but would be nice to have.

[webber]

Look i mean i am not set on the idea, and i respect everyones opinion, my thoughts are that if it will help, even in a small way, while john is workign up my way, it might not be a bad idea. It is not very expensive for the work on the pump, and they are a great design. I will post pics as soon as i can.

Cheers

[2LV8ETR]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Spend the money elsewhere.

[N1GTR]

You mention its not expensive, what prices are we talking?

Also, what does he charge to modify the head to include ports on the exhaust side?

[webber]

rough figures, i was indicated around $250-300 for the pump, thats impellor & heavier bearings installed, and once you see the work that goes into the impellor you will understand why that is cheap.

I would be guessing on the head work, but it isn't a real big job, i will find out.

The only reason i put it on here is because he tries to keep out of the lime-light, he has half dozen people he has never met ring him a day, and his current companies main work is in research and development for companies like BMW, Merc. etc. so he only offered me a look in because he carries a small volume interest in this still. I will sus it all out tomorrow.

The interest is great, thanks guys

[DRIFTER]

i run one of his water pumps on my 26. i had alot of trouble controlling water temps until i set up the bleeds in the head. i'm yet to spend time restricting the top hose and playing with pulley diameter to get the right block preasure, but as i'm not having problems with temps any more, it could be a while.

john is an extremely smart man judging by the couple of conversations if had with him, i'd love to talk to him more but he's always extremely busy. if you have the time and money, you should try his ideas, you'll learn heaps.

Edited March 26, 2009 by DRIFTER

[aphid]

Cracked factory valve guides on the exhaust side are actually quite common. It's more so the brittleness induced into them by the constant expansion/contraction associated with everyday driving that causes them to crack rather than the constant excessive heat they're exposed to for a relativly short time if they're tracked every now and again.

IMO a setup like this would be benificial but again it comes down to cost vs gains I guess...

Did the guy do any datalogging with tempurature probes tapped into each water jacket with a before and after result? This would be a good way of predicting actual gains associated with the setup

Just my 2cents

I would like to add, respectfully, that the cooling system is not exactly a weak spot for an RB. While improvements can be made, there are very basic steps that are fairly cheap to accomplish this.

Furthermore, cracking valve guides is not a common occurrence so I would have to ask why you are worried about them cracking.

I have seen bronze guides fail on 5 laps of QR in 4 or more different cars but never ever seen the cast guides crack. If they have been setup incorrectly or something else in the valvetrain comes adrift, then maybe.

Under drive pulley will achieve the same result as an N1 water pump.

and Redline Water wetter will decrease the surface tension of the water by decreasing cavitation.

[webber]

Thanks for the comments guys.

I might just bite the bullet, i will definatly report back with pics and prices tomorrow.

Also drifter, can you post up some pics of the bleed set-up you run.

Cheers

[The Dan]

Cracked factory valve guides on the exhaust side are actually quite common. It's more so the brittleness induced into them by the constant expansion/contraction associated with everyday driving that causes them to crack rather than the constant excessive heat they're exposed to for a relativly short time if they're tracked every now and again.

IMO a setup like this would be benificial but again it comes down to cost vs gains I guess...

Did the guy do any datalogging with tempurature probes tapped into each water jacket with a before and after result? This would be a good way of predicting actual gains associated with the setup

Just my 2cents

I've pulled apart many many many RB's, 99.9% being daily drivers between 7-20 years old and have never ever seen a cracked cast valve guide.

Not saying it doesn't happen but if it were common, then I'm sure I would have come across it by now. Also, the engineer I use (Chilton Engineering) does all the engineering work for Marty white, Chapman, GT Auto, BTT, and many others who all deal in RB's and he has never seen a cracked guide either...Not one single guide in 20 years. Worn guides yes, cracked..no.

Once again, not saying it can't happen or doesn't happen, just saying it's not a 'common fault'

[webber]

Alright, why does this always happen? 3lit3 32 thanks for your input, but this thread is not about weather cracking valve stem guides is common or not, i just know that the last 2 heads i had rebuilt, (a 25 & a 26) that the on both, it was only the exhaust valve guides that needed replacing, and on both heads some were worn and some were cracked. I know heaps of others who have come across the same thing. Maybe our rebuilders just want a few extra bucks, who cares, but this thread is mainly about an alternative cooling system.

I am sure that there is another thread to argue out your concerns

Cheers

[Swiper the Fox]

I've pulled apart many many many RB's, 99.9% being daily drivers between 7-20 years old and have never ever seen a cracked cast valve guide.

Not saying it doesn't happen but if it were common, then I'm sure I would have come across it by now. Also, the engineer I use (Chilton Engineering) does all the engineering work for Marty white, Chapman, GT Auto, BTT, and many others who all deal in RB's and he has never seen a cracked guide either...Not one single guide in 20 years. Worn guides yes, cracked..no.

Once again, not saying it can't happen or doesn't happen, just saying it's not a 'common fault'

im doing an engine now where the guides were cracked...and its not the 1st time ive seen it.

[The Dan]

Alright, why does this always happen? 3lit3 32 thanks for your input, but this thread is not about weather cracking valve stem guides is common or not, i just know that the last 2 heads i had rebuilt, (a 25 & a 26) that the on both, it was only the exhaust valve guides that needed replacing, and on both heads some were worn and some were cracked. I know heaps of others who have come across the same thing. Maybe our rebuilders just want a few extra bucks, who cares, but this thread is mainly about an alternative cooling system.

I am sure that there is another thread to argue out your concerns

Cheers

Considering you were the one who brought it up, I think it is very relevant. You are talking about spending hundreds on a water pump to fix a supposed problem that really isn't there. I understand that these modified pumps do a much better job than the factory items when there is a need for this type of thing, but you asked for opinions, and my opinion is the same as 2LV8ETR - If it aint broke, don't fix it.

Sure there is a place for this type of equipment, but so is there a place for using dry sump and external oil pump setups. DRIFTER seemed to have problems setting it up, which tells me that it's not something that just anyone can do as a simple, effective upgrade.

It is impressive gear regardless, but you wanted peoples opinion and mentioned a 'common problem' as a good reason for upgrading. Without this 'common problem' there is no real reason for the average person to need it, so you will primarily be targeting a racer market.

Both of the track cars I sponsor use an aftermarket alloy radiator (one uses PWR, the other - cooling pro from Justjap), a normal genuine water pump and normal off the shelf thermostat. 4 - 5 rounds on the race track with 20-30 minute breaks in between each round, in summer, and both of them maintain temps below 88deg.

Once again, though, impressive product. It's good to see people thinking outside the box to make things better for all of us.

[The Dan]

im doing an engine now where the guides were cracked...and its not the 1st time ive seen it.

Read the bottom line in the paragraph you quoted.

[SteveL]

I've been running a JB modified head on an L28 in the Z-car for longer than most here have had their licence. Actually, I've improved on his original design because the whole thing was a bit experimental and crude. It's all about uniform coolant flow and certainly will have little (more likely none) impact on any valve guide cracking (I have serious doubts about this being a common problem).

[N1GTR]

How did you go Webber?

[webber]

Please everyone forget the valve guides, my main goal with this project is for thermal efficiency across all my cylinders, to try and even out cylinder head temperatures on the exhaust side in particular, and if that helps any part of my engine, including valve guides last a bit longer, well then fantastic. It really is just improving on an already good cooling system.

I am in my lunch break, and heading down now.

Cheers

[femno]

What a total waste of time this all would be!

[DRIFTER]

i can't beleive no one else has cooling issues. more than half the field in DA have cooling problems on hot days or during lots of reruns.