Advice Needed - Just Got Camber 'fixed'

[revolt]

I replaced my tyres a few weeks ago, and the inners of every tyre were worn right down, but the outsides still had reasonable tread. I got a wheel alignment done at the tyre place and the camber results came up as:

Front:

Left -1.53

Right -1.58

Rear:

Left -2.09

Right -2.18

Because of this, I decided to book the Stag in to get a front and rear camber kit installed (first time I've not fixed something myself...).

$950 later ($270 for the bushes, $550 labour, $130 wheel alignment), the before and after results from the suspension place are concerning.

BEFORE (the car had only done about 300km's between the above results and these)

Front:

Left -1.14

Right -0.52

Rear:

Left -2.19

Right -1.21

If those are the true figures, then I wouldn't of even bothered with the front kit.. so, I don't know what to think of this.

The after results are:

Front:

Left -1.14

Right -.54

(effectively no change)

Rear:

Left -2.01

Right -1.25

So. Did I basically pay $950 to get slightly less camber on the left rear!?

Also, does that labour charge sound very high? I read around before booking it in, and labour was generally a lot lower... I did make the mistake of not actually getting a quote before going ahead though. If I knew it was going to be that expensive, I would of bought a whole bunch of stuff and got it all done at the same time.

So my questions with this are:

1) Why are the top 2 readings so far out, when the car had only done 500km's between them..? One of the readings is screwed?

2) $550 labour!?

3) Should the installer, being a dedicated suspension place, have looked at the initial readings and called me to say further parts are needed to get the rear camber down further?

[_Ryan_]

first off, i paid 350 for the front and rear camber kits and a front castor kit to be installed... then no more than 100 for an alignment

secondly, take it somewhere else for a second opinion, i still have minor rear camber, but i was told IRS requires a little bit too function as designed...

please fill out your location in your profile so you can be suggested a reliable workshop

[chook]

Check to see if they put new tyres on as well for that price. id be asking a few questions. They should have been able to get the fronts down to around 1deg. the rears may need a 2nd bush kit (if they only installed one ~0.75deg each) to get it down to around 0.5deg. I assume your car is not ridiculously lowered.

[Streeter]

I fitted a bush camber correction kit to my 180 years ago... biggest waste of money

how much are adjustable arms for stageas? surely thast a better option?

[revolt]

I fitted a bush camber correction kit to my 180 years ago... biggest waste of money

how much are adjustable arms for stageas? surely thast a better option?

When he said $950 when I dropped the car off, I just assumed that was with adjustable arms, not just the bushes. When I booked it in, I mentioned it uses R33 part numbers.

I got under the car, and it is definitely just the bushes.. receipt shows $270 for bushes and $550 for labour.

Here's a pic of the car. It is lowered on Tein coilovers, but not ridiculously low. Part from the labour charge, my other concern is how different the 2 camber figures were from the tyre place and suspension place (before they touched the camber). They should be identical shouldn't they?

At this stage, I am willing to raise it up a bit just to get the camber reasonable.

Edited March 27, 2009 by revolt

[KiwiRS4T]

In my view you have been ripped off big time. As with all things the problem is to find a skilled operator who knows what they are doing. And to know what the alternatives are.

Your front camber should be 1.0 neg (factory is 1.58deg to 0.08) so your original settings were near enough not to spend money on. You don't mention toe in which is another factor in uneven wear and on a awd (yours awd but manual , yes?) should be 0mm on the front. Castor is not that relevant to tyre wear but more is better so on my last S1 I paid $209 for castor bushes and more for labour getting them pressed out and in - for my new S1 I got a pair of adjustable castor rods for $120 so I have learned that lesson. BTW my car is lowered about 30- 35mm

The rear camber should be 0.5 deg neg so you had a problem. I am getting some adjustable camber arms (Cusco items are $300 locally made $130 pr) and I am sure you should be able to get some in Aus for about $150 - real easy to fit yourself compared to bushes. Again check your toe in: ideal is zero but factory is 0.4 to 1.1mm each side.

Also I never rotate my tyres. ( As a matter of interest did you ? Because going on the camber alone your problem should only have been with the rears).

So basically you were poorly advised. The front camber bushes were not needed (and apparently ineffective or wrongly installed (can you see if the offset is in the correct postion?). They should have offered the choice of bushes or adjustable arms for castor (how much castor did you end up with? factory says 3 to 4.5 but 6 deg would not be too much).

Rear camber looked to be too much to take out with bushes. They should have suggested adjustable camber arms at least.

The labour charge on top of the alignment looks excessive. However they have chosen the most labour intensive path. It is much easier to fit adjustable arms than press out bushes ( you need a ten ton press or something - not easy to do at home but adjustable arms are a simple DIY followed by a proper alignment.) My race suspension shop charges $80 an hour - did they really spend 7 hours on top of the alignment on your car? You could complain about the poor advice but specifically the labour charge - ask them what their hourly rate is and how long they spent on the car and invite them to lower it - it is not unknown for workshops to revist their labour charges if challenged.

If you were ripped off don't blame yourself - its very easy with a service you don't use often and where you can't always get recommendations from friends.

[pintaline]

well you got ripped on the alignment, we charge $80 for a 4 wheel alignment, i know we charge slightly less than most other shops in our area but noone charges close to $130.

castor bushes took me half hour tops to fit, start to finish. they are not hard to change, pressing them out and new ones in took me 10min max.

most suspension shops wont suggest adjustable castor rods as they view them to be weak and flimsy as you're replacing a solid steel rod with a hollow alloy tube with threads in it. not the strongest sounding thing to do, so they suggest bushes which i guess also allows them to charge more labour because they can tell you it takes longer.

we charge $110hr for suspension jobs, it probably would take our mechanic about 3 hours to the job but that said, i've seen easy jobs take double the time if something isn't cooperating.

if you got printouts of all the alignments then take them all to a few other suspension or tyre shops and get some other opinions but also go back to where you got it done and ask them why it took so long and why there isn't much difference in the results.

D.

[_Ryan_]

I fitted a bush camber correction kit to my 180 years ago... biggest waste of money

how much are adjustable arms for stageas? surely thast a better option?

www.justjap.com

Castor is relevant to tyre wear, it wears the outside of your tyres in a different way to positive camber, look for feathering on the outter tread blocks

[BensDR30]

This is a most interesting situation.

I agree that you've been duped regarding either the labour, parts (requirement thereof), or both.

My RSFV, with 100% stock suspension (225/50/16 rubber) is currently running the following figures:

(check your figures to see if they're in decimal-degrees or degrees/minutes/seconds)

Front:

Toe (total): +3.2

Camber L: -1.3 deg

Camber R: -0.8 deg

Castor 10 deg L: +4.1 deg

Castor 10 deg R: +4.4 deg

Rear:

Toe (total):+2.2

Camber L: -2.0 deg

Camber R: -1.7 deg

Now the toe may not be ideal (as per Bob's suggestions), but that is not relevant in relation to the specific camber issues that you've got.

(maybe I need to look at the rear camber on my car - or carry less crap around in it...)

Edited March 28, 2009 by BensDR30

[msports180]

Yeah sounds like you have been ripped mate, sorry to hear that.

My 260rs had camber adjustment bolts in the rear allready? I just assumed these were factory? as i planned on lowering it more i got rear adjustable camber arms for $200. Also Went front adjustable castor rods for $200.

For the front i would of thuaght with the bushes they could of got a better result then that. Allthough sometime they front upper arms can be a bitch to get to out. I know mine where a right pain in the ass to the point i was contemplating not putting the cusco's in. So some labour cost may of come from here.

As for the pressing the bushes in and out as mentioned its a 10min job. LCA bushes can take a bit longer but camber one's are piss easy.

[pintaline]

manual stags have factory adjustable camber in the rear but i'm pretty sure autos dont

D.

[Tangles]

its really disapointing to read this, but yes I say at least $200 labour has been added onto the bottom line

Id be going back, having a go at them and demanding either a rethink on the bill, or demand a free suspn check, service, basic parts, alignment on another vehicle of yours/family

#1 reason why to get an agreed "rough value" of the work before going ahead. cant imagine how much my head flow/port work f**kup (3 goes at it) would have cost me if I didnt have a firm quotation agreed to before work commenced.

[Mr500]

mate, you had camber bushes installed in the rear and it came back with more +tive on the rear, should of had 0.75 less.WTF?

i installed whiteline adj upper arms ($300, nice with urethaine bushings) and a $70 4 wheel align. now have +0.48 LHR and +0.51 RHR.

[KiwiRS4T]

manual stags have factory adjustable camber in the rear but i'm pretty sure autos dont

D.

Autos do as well - eccentric bush on the inner but doesn't give much adjustment.

[Mr500]

mate, you had camber bushes installed in the rear and it came back with more +tive on the rear, should of had 0.75 less.WTF?

i installed whiteline adj upper arms ($300, nice with urethaine bushings) and a $70 4 wheel align. now have +0.48 LHR and +0.51 RHR.

i ment -0.48 and -0.51.

[revolt]

Thanks for all the replies.

Both sheets (from Tyre place and Suspension joint) are in Degrees, with 'arcminutes', not decimals as in 2 degrees 19'

Apart from the main labour/parts issue, should the printout from the Tyre place (1 month ago) and Suspension place (before doing the camber) be identical/very close? Because the figures I posted earlier are completely different.

On the printout from the tyre place, the Toe was pretty much perfect --

Front:

L: -0.1mm

R: -0.1mm

Rear:

L: -0.1mm

R: 0.0mm

Yet once again, the BEFORE printout from the Suspension place shows totally different figures (yet nothing had been touched)

Front:

L: -1.6mm

R: -6.6mm

Rear:

L: -3.3mm

R: -3.4mm

And the after results being close to +1mm on everything

I am trying to figure out whose printout is wrong first (I suspect the Suspension place.. judging by the rest of their efforts), and then go from there with regards to the parts/labour from the Suspension place. Is it ok to name places on here or not?

Can figures like: Left-1deg 14' , Right -0deg 54' be right? Shouldn't they be reasonably close?

Thanks again everyone. I've definitely learnt my lesson. If I ever get anything like this done again, I will get a quote and SPECIFY what parts I want to be used.

Edited March 28, 2009 by revolt

[BensDR30]

Unless you've hit something pretty hard, I'd say that someones machine needs calibration... Either that or the figures aren't from your car (that in itself is cause for you to take the matter further - perhaps even to your state automotive body).

It's not uncommon for the left/right figures to be different, this is to account for the camber on the road (if we drove on the right, it would be the opposite). However, I can't comment on what they 'should' actually be as suspension geometry isn't an area that I get all that involved in.

[_Ryan_]

i cant find my print outs havent had an alignment in ages(since i moved) PM dale/stinkyrooster he should know a good wheel alignment place, or just post in WA and find out who SAU-WA use!

[pintaline]

every time you set up for an alignment, the numbers will be slightly different, but nowhere near that much! going from -.1 to -1.6 is a pretty big jump but -.1 to -6.6??? something is deffinately wrong there... basically they're saying that your tie rod has moved in 6mm which unless you've hit something or someone left the nut loose, is pretty much impossible.

go back to the tyre place, tell them what's going on, show them the printout from the other place and ask them if they'll just set it up and check it for you and see what their screen says... they shouldn't charge you as most places will have a warranty on alignments. also ask both places when they last calibrated their machines because, depending on what type of aligning system their using, even the slightest knock to one of the heads can put it all out of whack.

D.

[snapper]

manual stags have factory adjustable camber in the rear but i'm pretty sure autos dont

Yeah my s2 does have adjustable camber pins in the rear which are seized . But did buy new ones from nissan ex japan $26 inc gst . Which will be fitted by a suspension shop in perth who do all my work and are good with stags as i was a trial run for some gear to work . If anyone is interested pm me and i can point you there way . Just mention me you should get a discount . Good luck .

D.