My Grand Plan For Decent Driver Training In Sa

[Madaz]

^^ yet they still Arab drift

[JMW]

^^ yet they still Arab drift

Yeah but their road rules over there are crazy, like seatbelts are not compulsary to wear. They treat cars more as a dipossible commodity over there.

[benny_blanco]

I agree with this 100%.... I know in Finland, they have to go through all kinds of defensive driving before they can get their licenses.... why they dont do it in Australia I dont know

[Hotwire]

I can add that this sort of training is invaluable.

When I was 18, and had my license for 2 years I thought I was king s**t. My dad then paid for me to do a defensive driver trianing course developed by CAMS in association with Mercedes. I went out to Mallala at 8am where I was met by a group of driving instructors and a lecture room. We spent the first hour going through the theory of correct driver positioning, vehicle control of various driver positions, and some basic road craft. We then went out for a first track session (1 hr) and again back to the class room for another 30 min of theory. This repeated (1-1.5 hr driving, 30 min theory) for the rest of the day - and at the end of the day I drove away realising far more about car control than I ever had before.

Not once in the day did we go excessively fast, learn about the race lines or anything that I initially thought I may get out of the day. From the day I learn emergency car control in ALL sorts of conditions. Since the course I can guarantee the training has saved my life at least once (due to another drivers idiocy the accident almost occured, and due to my training it didnt). Anyone who thinks advanced (go-fast) courses may hold more value for them than a defensive course - you are fooling yourselves.

The defensive driver training Kristian is emphasising here is the best way forward for ALL motorists on our roads - young and old. Best of luck Kristian, and if I can help out with anything let me know.

Cheers

Lee

[TheTunersGroup]

I can add that this sort of training is invaluable.

When I was 18, and had my license for 2 years I thought I was king s**t. My dad then paid for me to do a defensive driver trianing course developed by CAMS in association with Mercedes. I went out to Mallala at 8am where I was met by a group of driving instructors and a lecture room. We spent the first hour going through the theory of correct driver positioning, vehicle control of various driver positions, and some basic road craft. We then went out for a first track session (1 hr) and again back to the class room for another 30 min of theory. This repeated (1-1.5 hr driving, 30 min theory) for the rest of the day - and at the end of the day I drove away realising far more about car control than I ever had before.

Not once in the day did we go excessively fast, learn about the race lines or anything that I initially thought I may get out of the day. From the day I learn emergency car control in ALL sorts of conditions. Since the course I can guarantee the training has saved my life at least once (due to another drivers idiocy the accident almost occured, and due to my training it didnt). Anyone who thinks advanced (go-fast) courses may hold more value for them than a defensive course - you are fooling yourselves.

I did the BMW course at Norwell in Queensland when I was younger.

It was all about learning car control, but they also taught proper lines etc. IMHO learning proper lines isn't just about going faster - it's also about keeping the car balanced and maintaining grip, which also improves safety - the two go hand in hand. Training was done in the classroom, on the track and on the skidpan. They also did a ton of stuff on learning how to brake properly.

Two days after I did the course, I was driving back from Queensland to Sydney. I was in the middle of nowhere on a country road in a Toyota Corolla doing just under the speed limit.

As I approached a crest of a hill on a straight section of 2 lane country road, some idiot coming the other way crossed onto my side of the road as he overtook another car over the crest of the hill, coming straight at me. He was taking up all my lane in front of me.

To avoid a head on I had to swerve to the left and take to the dirt shoulder. Having just spent 3 days at BMW's Norwell track, my reaction was instant and instinctive. If not for doing that driving course, who knows what would have happened.

About a year or so later I was overseas and driving under the speed limit when an idiot bus driver pulled out from a bus stop straight into the right lane of 3 lanes, straight in front of me. He just forced his way straight into my lane with no regard at all for the fact that I was there, and I had to swerve to avoid him. He was angled across my lane, and he just kept moving into my lane, despite me using my horn. He never made the slightest attempt to avoid an accident - he just kept on barging into my lane. His driving was one of the most irresponsible moves I have ever seen anyone do. Everyone gives way to buses, but if a bus barges so aggressively that you don't have time to give way, there is nothing you can do to defy the laws of physics. I had nowhere to go and if I hit the side of the bus it would have bounced me straight into oncoming traffic. Fortunately the training kicked in again I got my braking done. Again, if I hadn't have done the BMW course, it could have been a head on.

The fact is that the roads are full of people who have no idea how to drive safely. Spend enough time on the roads and eventually you are going to have an incident that is not of your causing. I don't speed on public roads and haven't had a speeding ticket in many years.

I thought I knew how to drive before I did the BMW course, but in reality the course showed me how little I really knew.

EVERYONE should do a car control and emergency maneuvres driving course, no matter how good a driver you think you are.

And quite simply, the only way to make our roads safer is for:

1. All new drivers to have to do a defensive driving course before they are given a drivers license by the government, and

2. All existing drivers should have to do a compulsory defensive driving course before being able to renew their driver's license.

BOAT LICENSES

In NSW you have to do a compulsory course now to get a boat license.

http://www.yachtandboat.com.au/page/boat_licence_nsw.html reads ...

Getting a Boat Licence in NSW

If you are going to be driving a boat that will travel at 10 knots (18kms/hr) or more then you will need to get a boat licence.

Getting your boat licence is a four step process, similar to getting your car drivers licence.

1. Study the boating safety manual.

You can pick one up at your nearest NSW Maritime office (click here for locations) or you can call them and ask them to post you one – easy! NSW Maritime 13 12 36 then press 2 to speak to a customer service representative. Ask for the Boating License Handbook.

Or, you can download the PDF’s

2. Take the boating safety course.

This can be done online at NSW Maritime (cost $11) or attend a seminar near you (click here for locations). Bookings are essential. An alternative to the NSW Maritime seminars are to take a Boating Safety Course conducted by a NSW Maritime accredited provider - more information can be found on the Boat Courses Page

3. Take the licensing exam.

Once you have completed the course, head to your nearest RTA or Maritime Centre to sit the exam (40 multiple choice)- cost $28 for a boat licence and $43 for a PWC licence. Once you have successfully completed the exam you will be presented with a “certificate of attainment”. This is NOT your licence. It is just the slip that certifies your completion of the theory and exam.

4. Get your licence.

You will need to take the Certificate of Attainment along with photo ID to your nearest Maritime authority to get your licence. Cost is $42 for one year or $100 for three years) Young adult (under 16yrs) and concession (pension) licences are also available.

http://www.maritime.nsw.gov.au/rec_boating...tingsafety.html reads ...

All applicants for an initial general or Personal Watercraft (PWC) licence must first complete the compulsory Boating Safety Course(s) before the licence test(s) can be attempted.

FROM 1 JUNE 2009 IT WILL ALSO BE COMPULSORY TO PROVIDE EVIDENCE OF PRACTICAL BOATING EXPERIENCE BEFORE THE LICENCE TEST(S) CAN BE ATTEMPTED.

So if it's good enough for boat licenses, then compulsory training should absolutely be compulsory for all car licenses. It's frankly a disgrace how easy it is to get a car drivers license in Australia IMHO.

- Adam

[Iron Chef]

Even though im from WA i thought i would post in here...

great ideas IronChef, as u said i personally found the number one way to realise that a normal drive can go from normal to trouble (near misses, etc) in a second is for it to happen to you. People can tell you till your blue in the face but u just say that only happens to other people who dont know how to drive, etc and think your invinsible.

Only Then you will take notice and realise that it can happen to you and everytime after that u take a completly different attitude to doin risky stuff on the road.

But until that near miss (though some dont get that warning and get hurt/die on the first bad situation they get into) most people dont think it will ever happen to them.

This training will get people in that risky situation but in a safe environment and hopefully teach them before they get on public roads and therefore think before speeding/skids/burnouts/drifting on the road.

Thanks for posting mate You're spot on - best for that scary situation/near miss to happen in a safe environment.

Going back 10 years ago, I used to sell Holdens, and we had a Barina GSi (for those that remember them) which was one of the very few small cars on the market with ABS brakes at the time. I used to take customers out for demos on a quite side street and show them how the ABS worked - just the shock of a hard stop from 60km/h (even with me giving them plenty of warning) was something my customers never forgot, and I was reminded about it many times over in years to come. It was very effective at getting them to buy the car though

A relative of mine has just scored a job as an advanced driving instructor at the Emirates Driving Institute in Dubai. He's headed over there from Australia for a year to take up the job.

He's just sent me some photos of the driver training centre. It sure makes you see how much more seriously they take driver training in Dubai than governments do in Australia.

They have a fleet of 800 (yes 800) Nissans (The Sunny - Pulsars back home), with each vehicle replaced every 4 years. ...

This is the technical department and building which houses the lecture halls ...

An interior photo ...

You can view the rest of his photos and find more info about that facility here ...

http://www.tunersgroup.com/TunerWire_Live/...r_training.html

- Adam

How cool is that set-up?? I doubt Media Mike would go for something so expensive haha, but it's good ammo in the push for that sort of training.

I can add that this sort of training is invaluable.

When I was 18, and had my license for 2 years I thought I was king s**t. My dad then paid for me to do a defensive driver trianing course developed by CAMS in association with Mercedes. I went out to Mallala at 8am where I was met by a group of driving instructors and a lecture room. We spent the first hour going through the theory of correct driver positioning, vehicle control of various driver positions, and some basic road craft. We then went out for a first track session (1 hr) and again back to the class room for another 30 min of theory. This repeated (1-1.5 hr driving, 30 min theory) for the rest of the day - and at the end of the day I drove away realising far more about car control than I ever had before.

Not once in the day did we go excessively fast, learn about the race lines or anything that I initially thought I may get out of the day. From the day I learn emergency car control in ALL sorts of conditions. Since the course I can guarantee the training has saved my life at least once (due to another drivers idiocy the accident almost occured, and due to my training it didnt). Anyone who thinks advanced (go-fast) courses may hold more value for them than a defensive course - you are fooling yourselves.

The defensive driver training Kristian is emphasising here is the best way forward for ALL motorists on our roads - young and old. Best of luck Kristian, and if I can help out with anything let me know.

Cheers

Lee

I might have to delve into that course a little more Lee, it sounds pretty much like what I've got in mind. I obviously wanna be careful not to go ruining the businesses that run advanced driver training courses commercially, but you're right, the training will be more on defensive driving and preventing being in an accident situation as much as avoiding hitting something when an emergency scenario occurs.

I did the Jim Murcott defensive driving course, and I'd have to say it was the single most effective modifier of my driving behaviour - that and having kids, which changes your whole perspective on things too. My parents paid for the course as a birthday present for me - I often get people asking me what gift they should give a car nut, and that's what I tell them every time.

Anyway, cheers for the support guys.

Edited April 12, 2009 by Iron Chef

[Madaz]

...I might have to delve into that course a little more Lee, it sounds pretty much like what I've got in mind. I obviously wanna be careful not to go ruining the businesses that run advanced driver training courses commercially, but you're right, the training will be more on defensive driving and preventing being in an accident situation as much as avoiding hitting something when an emergency scenario occurs.

I did the Jim Murcott defensive driving course, and I'd have to say it was the single most effective modifier of my driving behaviour - that and having kids, which changes your whole perspective on things too. My parents paid for the course as a birthday present for me - I often get people asking me what gift they should give a car nut, and that's what I tell them every time.

Anyway, cheers for the support guys.

i think the course your trying to develop wouldn't interfere with the Advanced driver training and maybe might be able coincide together like talk with the group that does driver training and see if they can offer a discount to people that have complete the basic drivers training (or what ever it gets called, driver awareness course)

bikes have rider safe why cant cars have drivers safe a government initiative

[Iron Chef]

Yeah a few of the guys keen to get involved are already doing similar sort of stuff. I like the term "Driver Awareness Course" too, if you don't mind me pinching it off you

[Madaz]

not at all that's what where here for many hands make light work

[Madaz]

also you may be able to pitch it as a insurance approved course since there is no need to go about 100kph throughout the course and each driver would go out with an instructor and would limit the amount of cars on track dependent on how many instructors you could involve

[r33_crusier]

Apologies in advance for the essay!

Hi guys,

The accident on Magill Road recently, whilst tragic in itself, seems to have spawned plenty of anti-hoon hysteria in the past few weeks, fuelled by right-wing talk-back DJs and journalists whipping up controversy to sell more papers or improve their ratings.

What's worse, there have also been plenty of SA politicians, the ones who we elect, who've jumped on this bandwagon in order to supposedly help their chances at the next election, the worst being Minister for Road Safety, Tom Koutsanis.

Airline pilots go through thousands upon thousands of hours of training, both physically in a plane, and in a simluator, being taught to handle their planes in emergency situations, before they are allowed to fly, and yet we, as a society, seem quite content to put our young drivers in potentially life-threatening situations in cars every day with little or no emergency training whatsoever.

Politicians will puff out their chests at this suggestion and point to the record low road toll as proof that the "big stick" approach to road safety is working, conveniently ignoring the fact it's the cars themselves have actually become safer rather than the drivers inside. And so we, the motoring public, in our apathy, believe the hype and blindly accept that increasingly harsh penalties for minor infringements are in our best interests of public safety rather than in the interests of reaping the government tens of millions of dollars in revenue each year.

So, to the issue of young drivers and how best to educate them. Current methods employed by the Motor Accident Commission and SAPOL include sending police officers into schools with images of blood and gore to supposedly deter young drivers from doing anything stupid on the streets. I can completely understand police officers wanting to do this - they are the ones, after all, who have to pick up the pieces when someone kills themselves on our roads. The problem is that, in general, such teaching methods are the ones that ADULTS think will work best with young drivers, not the ones that will have little effect on the drivers to need to hear the message most.

Why? Because young drivers generally assume they are brilliant at driving until it's proven otherwise. They look at videos of crashes and say to themselves "If that had been me, I would've...and the accident never would've happened". The presenters leave feeling they've got the message through, and then when a young driver is placed in the same situation as the video, in real life, they end up reacting in exactly the same way as the person on the tape. The reason for this is they have no understanding of their how they will behave, nor how their car will behave, in an emergency situation. Panic and shock set in, and basic mistakes are made.

The push for more hours in cars being supervised by trained instructors is a good start, but knowing how to reverse park and do a handbrake start, whilst important, won't help you know what to do when you've come over the crest of a hill at the 100km/h speed limit and there's a truck doing 20km/h on the other side, with no room for you to pull up safely behind it.

The only solution is to train young drivers in how to handle their cars and manage their own behaviour in emergency situations in a safe environment. On other words, advanced driver training.

Governments will point to a raft of studies (commissioned by governments, naturally) that suggest that advanced driver training has little effect in reducing the likelihood of accidents for young drivers, and in some cases can actually make matters worse. Aside from it being impossible to prove (or disprove) this theory, such studies are almost always based on flawed data. Because there's no standardised system for advanced driver training, the content of courses varies widely. Some, for example, are aimed at developing skills for competitive track racing and will attract wannabe racing car drivers who usually think they're much better drivers than they really are – the kind most likely to also be over-confident on the street, and therefore more likely to have an accident.

Because of the expense involved in setting up such courses, the governments will use this flawed data to reach a conclusion that advanced driver training courses are not a cost-effective option for reducing the road toll. In economic terms, it's far easier just to stick to the current tried and true formula, which makes money rather than costing money.

In 1991 (back before "safety cameras" were discovered), the Australian Transport Safety Bureau commissioned a survey aimed at examining the effect that advanced driver training courses had on participants, who were on their provisional licences. It found that there was a significant improvement in both the skills and attitudes of drivers who participated, and suggested that the shock of having to operate a car in a simulated emergency situation during the course was sufficient to embed the experience in the participants' memories, and was therefore likely to improve their response next time such an experience occurred in real life. I'll post some excerpts from its conclusions later on.

The Plan

- Provide advanced driver training that places the focus on improving driver attitude as much as improving skills

- Give young drivers the opportunity to do this via hands-on experiences in a safe environment away from public roads

- Involve community service groups and not-for-profit organisations (such as car clubs) to provide volunteer trainers, and private enterprise to sponsor the course, to help keep the cost to participants at a minimum

- As an ultimate goal, lobby the current state government and its ministers to fund the course and make attendance compulsory, at a subsidised cost, for all learner drivers.

- Also petition the government to listen to the opinions of police from both WA and NSW who've noted a significant drop in illegal racing as a result of drag strips being built, and to reconsider its current stance on providing government funding for an all-new drag racing facility in South Australia.

It's worth noting that there will always be a percentage of the population that does everything right on the road – for them this course will only serve to reinforce what they already know. At the other end, there will be a percentage on which this course would also have no effect – their poor attitude and driving habits will remain regardless. It's the people in the middle I'm keen to target – the ones who, as a result of their training, end up making the right choices instead of the wrong ones: choices that may just save their lives, and the lives of those around them.

I've already had a positive response "in principle" from SAPOL, various businesses (both in and out of the motor industry) and the Sporting Car Club of SA, to my plan. There is still plenty of work to be done, and plenty of meetings to attend, so it will need plenty of support and plenty of determination on my part if I am to succeed. Let me know your thoughts.

Cheers

Kristian

Hey Kristian

Great ideas, as you said with the piolots and there simulation software, drivers should have to go through the same thing aswell, but more realistic, not a racing simulator or a non realistic government one that is not detailed enough. A proper software package that is combined with a realistic car, that puts drivers under multiple test. I for a matter of fact was looking into trying to get a prototype set up, eventually, of some kind of simulation software that wasd able to mimic as close as possible the movements of a car when it has lost control so that the person driving would be able to see what it would be like. Obviously this take alot of time and effort, but if the governement was willing to fund ideas like this i believe it would be well worth while. I for sure would be keen on getting this kind of software developed so that these kind of accidents dont happen to people that i know.

Keep up the ideas and if anything comes about with any simulation software, shout me a pm as i know a couple of people that could be willing to help out.

Adam

[rhys5169]

in regard to the dubai driving school, i probably wouldnt go flaunting that around the place. the UAE may have a nice diving course program but they have one of the worst road death % in the world, sumthing like 900 people died on the roads while only 2.3 million have licencses. Australia would have around 10 million + registered drivers but only around 1600 deaths.

obviously everything is not equal here, as in road rules differ, they only have a thousand female drivers with licences etc etc but this is something that a politician against your plan is going to bring up kristian. The media will always forget to mention the above differences, but be more than happy to make note of the amount of deaths. i for one am happy to help in any way getting your proposed plan up and running.

http://www.dubaifaqs.com/driving-in-dubai.php (07 UAE road facts)

http://www.caradvice.com.au/9032/2007-australian-road-toll/ (07 aus road facts)

Edited April 14, 2009 by rhys5169

[Sinful]

Top Idea Iron Chef..Driver Training is cool. I have always had great fun and learnt loads from it!!

There is a mate of mine that does driver training in SA DSA Click Here

Check out there website out and have a chat to Mark he is a Great guy

[EVOLV35]

Great Idea Chef. i know im behind it 100% and i know many many people who would also support this idea. It's good to see someone willing to get up and act. Fantastic work mate.

[TheTunersGroup]

in regard to the dubai driving school, i probably wouldnt go flaunting that around the place. the UAE may have a nice diving course program but they have one of the worst road death % in the world, sumthing like 900 people died on the roads while only 2.3 million have licencses. Australia would have around 10 million + registered drivers but only around 1600 deaths.

obviously everything is not equal here, as in road rules differ, they only have a thousand female drivers with licences etc etc but this is something that a politician against your plan is going to bring up kristian. The media will always forget to mention the above differences, but be more than happy to make note of the amount of deaths. i for one am happy to help in any way getting your proposed plan up and running.

http://www.dubaifaqs.com/driving-in-dubai.php (07 UAE road facts)

http://www.caradvice.com.au/9032/2007-australian-road-toll/ (07 aus road facts)

Hi Rhys,

The very reason that training centres like the one in Dubai have been built is to do something about the road toll.

This article from 2003 http://www.ameinfo.com/24179.html reads ...

Every year 32 UAE Nationals die in road accidents per 100,000 compared with six road deaths per 100,000 in Sweden and 15 in the United States, reported Gulf News. This is considered one of the highest death tolls in the world. Speeding and other bad driving practices are blamed for this terrible statistic.

They have toughened up the road laws and increased driver training to try to reduce those numbers of deaths.

http://www.gulfnews.com/nation/Traffic_and...t/10198681.html reads ...

Published: March 19, 2008, 18:43

Abu Dhabi: The road death toll has dropped by 14 per cent since the introduction of the new Federal Traffic Law on March 1, according to statistics released by the Traffic Department of the Ministry of Interior.

The department did a comparative study of traffic offences committed during the last two weeks of February and the first two weeks of March ...

According to the study between February 17-29 and March 1-14, accidents declined by 10.4 per cent and deaths by 14.3 per cent. Collisions decreased by 11.8 per cent, but accidents involving pedestrians increased by 7.7 per cent.

Accidents involving overturning of vehicles decreased by 36 per cent, and accidents causing moderate and minor injuries by 12.6 and 5.4 per cent respectively.

There is a ton of evidence from all over the world to show that improved driver skill and training leads to a lower road toll.

No doubt the UAE has evidence to show that their driver training centres are working in helping to reduce the road tolor they simply wouldn't be spending the money on them.

Frankly I think that photos of the Dubai training centre absolutely SHOULD be shown off to politicians in Australia so that they can see how far behind Australia is in setting up proper training programs.

My $0.02.

- Adam

[Iron Chef]

Adam are you or your mate able to get hold of any research done to back up the benefits of advanced driver training? It's all good ammo when the time comes to convince governments to support it.

[rhys5169]

interesting read adam, good to see a before and after! i have to agree with you, facts like that would only benefit

[Iron Chef]

Cheers for YOUR input too, Rhys.

Update: had a meeting today with some very well-connected guys today who are very keen to see things get off the ground. More meetings coming up as a result lol.

Edited April 14, 2009 by Iron Chef

[SLED]

in regard to the dubai driving school, i probably wouldnt go flaunting that around the place. the UAE may have a nice diving course program but they have one of the worst road death % in the world, sumthing like 900 people died on the roads while only 2.3 million have licencses. Australia would have around 10 million + registered drivers but only around 1600 deaths.

http://www.dubaifaqs.com/driving-in-dubai.php (07 UAE road facts)

http://www.caradvice.com.au/9032/2007-australian-road-toll/ (07 aus road facts)

very true Rhys but only cause they instigated the word 'Hoon' as per below;

Crazy Arabs

Extreme desert heat makes you do silly things me thinks.

[typevu]

very true Rhys but only cause they instigated the word 'Hoon' as per below;

Crazy Arabs

Extreme desert heat makes you do silly things me thinks.

hahahaha that road skating is gold!