Are Imports Such As Skyline/supra's Unreliable?

[bozodos]

Well the thread has gone off course a bit, IMO Japanese cars are inherently better designed and engineered than most; much has been made of the reletive technological advantages that they have had for two decades that Holden at least has finally come up with a solution to. I don't think it's 'hatred' so much, more of a reaction to most other car enthusiast's who tend to deride the grey import stuff.

RE your argument about rarity, how often do you see a VB SL/E or VB Commodore of any kind these days? About the same as 4 door XB's I'd reckon! They are still worth stuff all though.

I'd have to disagree with your assertion that given the same amount of money you could build a local car to similar performance as your average turbo import (late model Commodores and Falcons excluded.) There is no cheap shortcuts with the old 5 litres etc. Not to mention that standard Holden / Ford suspension is craptastic vs stock Skyline suspension.

You would have thought a bit more R&D from the parent US companies would have flowed down into the local makers over the past 20 years however!

I consider myself a car enthusiast, but I really do think that a lot of locally made cars are really overrated. Ever looked up the performance specs for say the VK Group A or even the VN Group A vs the Skyline GT-R? (And I do realise that the GT-R was twice as much but they were both a 'Group A' homogolation special!)

Yeah you can wring good performance out of the older carburetted V8s and sixes, I recall that the carby 308 being a much easier and cheaper motor to mod than the 304 EFI. It's moreso the fact that they can never be tuned just right, the cold start issues etc.

Even Japanese branded cars which were produced here seem to be exceptionally reliable as far as I've seen.

[R33_Dude]

Well the thread has gone off course a bit, IMO Japanese cars are inherently better designed and engineered than most; much has been made of the reletive technological advantages that they have had for two decades that Holden at least has finally come up with a solution to. I don't think it's 'hatred' so much, more of a reaction to most other car enthusiast's who tend to deride the grey import stuff.

RE your argument about rarity, how often do you see a VB SL/E or VB Commodore of any kind these days? About the same as 4 door XB's I'd reckon! They are still worth stuff all though.

I'd have to disagree with your assertion that given the same amount of money you could build a local car to similar performance as your average turbo import (late model Commodores and Falcons excluded.) There is no cheap shortcuts with the old 5 litres etc. Not to mention that standard Holden / Ford suspension is craptastic vs stock Skyline suspension.

You would have thought a bit more R&D from the parent US companies would have flowed down into the local makers over the past 20 years however!

I consider myself a car enthusiast, but I really do think that a lot of locally made cars are really overrated. Ever looked up the performance specs for say the VK Group A or even the VN Group A vs the Skyline GT-R? (And I do realise that the GT-R was twice as much but they were both a 'Group A' homogolation special!)

Yeah you can wring good performance out of the older carburetted V8s and sixes, I recall that the carby 308 being a much easier and cheaper motor to mod than the 304 EFI. It's moreso the fact that they can never be tuned just right, the cold start issues etc.

Even Japanese branded cars which were produced here seem to be exceptionally reliable as far as I've seen.

Oh yeah I agree with you in almost every way - a turd is a turd and some cars are just made bad to begin with which I believe is every falcon from EA through to AU and commodore from about 1994 - 1999 before the LS1's came out.

The five litre V8's were pretty pathetic stock and the ford V8 is nigh on useless. However with a bit of modification (new intake manifold, sorted exhaust, better cams, slight head upgrades) can be made quite quick and due to their design extraordinarily torquey. Thats on a fairly modest budget too. Give a bit more and theres stroker kits, supercharger kits and all sorts of goodies available quite cheap and straight off the shelf. The holden V8 is actually underrated - it was detuned just so that it didn't exceed Ford's power outputs.

If we had the same budget I would take you up on the domestic versus imported modification thing i.e. same gross budget for purchase, modification, and labour. I admit it probably wouldn't have quite the same uh... chassis quality... as an import (I stand by what I have said all along, imports are so much nicer to drive) but in any test you care to throw at the pair it would be a pretty fair fight and I daresay in the 1/4 mile run the car I would build would probably have the advantage.

I have never had a problem with small blocks and cold starts apart from once on a 0 degree morning and my friends brand new liberty at the time didn't like starting either. Its all in the tune. Likewise with fuel economy, small blocks that are not performance orientated (because lets face it theres slow V8's out there just as there is slow imports) can be tuned to be quite fuel efficient. Tuning those old engines is half the fun of owning one.

I digress though, no particular group of enthusiasts doesn't have its problems with the cars they own. I would dare say a lot of thrashed exotics break as much as thrashed imports. As a matter of fact i know this - one of my mates is a porsche/ferrari mechanic they have an unbelievable amount of problems all the time and it seems its mostly to do with having to keep a bucket under them to catch all the oil. 

Holden and Ford Australia tend to survive on handouts and their own profits. Lets face it two cars produced solely for a low population country aren't going to be as good as a centrally designed car that will be sold around the world. However in every test the cars made on handouts seem to shine as well and they have their own characters that are totally different to imports.

Its just a case of what you want at the end of the day. 

[TALBO]

A little old but worthy of a read.....

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleD...115&IsPgd=0

And some more JD Power Survey via google..

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=jd+power...tart=0&sa=N

[funkymonkey]

here's an accident between a Nissan and a Ford ute/truck/whatever-the-fuck in the US...

[eeiko321]

here's an accident between a Nissan and a Ford ute/truck/whatever-the-f**k in the US...

the watever-the-f**k is a late model 04 - 08' Ford F100 pick up truck (ute)

gee it really did get messed up......

you wouldve thought the big tough looking thing wouldve survived a bit better

[zebra]

its due to oppupent saftey crumple zones.

its there to cushion the impact not because there made crap.....

Go run into a wall chest first with just a t-shirt on and see wht it feels like....then do the same thing with a pillow wrapped rounds your chest and tell me the difference

[sneakey pete]

Yeah, the driver in the Nissan Ute might have got whiplash or somesuch if they didn't have a headrest.

[eeiko321]

its due to oppupent saftey crumple zones.

its there to cushion the impact not because there made crap.....

Go run into a wall chest first with just a t-shirt on and see wht it feels like....then do the same thing with a pillow wrapped rounds your chest and tell me the difference

Yeah, the driver in the Nissan Ute might have got whiplash or somesuch if they didn't have a headrest.

true, new cars are designed to obsorb impact to minimise injury to the driver.

but its the front end of the ford hitting the rear end of a ute.

the front end has soft sheet metal panels, giving it a more damaged look.

but the rear end of a ute Chassis... is NOT designed to crumble........

so theres nothing wrong with the damaged affect of the nissan.

Kinda like hitting the rear end of a small truck..... they arent designed to crumble like the front

[3LGODZILA]

are they reliable? the short answer is standard = yes. modified = no.

i always see this answer when someone asks about reliability. how modified are we talking and are u saying that a 100% unmodified skyline would be the most reliable?

ive always thought that some mods that increase power would also increase reliability, such as exhaust to eliminate restriction, upgraded intercooler to keep the intake side of things cooler, even upgrading the turbo as the stock ceramic wheeled ones are prone to destroying under higher then stock boost, but then again that comes down to running higher boost which obviously insnt going to do the engine any favours. and also a tunable ECU to keep everything running clean and smooth and safely.

[brent32]

its due to oppupent saftey crumple zones.

its there to cushion the impact not because there made crap.....

Go run into a wall chest first with just a t-shirt on and see wht it feels like....then do the same thing with a pillow wrapped rounds your chest and tell me the difference

I think you may be missing the point mate! cars wth pillows wrapped round them(crumple zones) to protect mentally deficient american drivers are an example of ramping up secondary safety, the old ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. Designers should make cars wth better primary safety ie fit better tyres, brakes and cut down unnecessary weight while also lowering centre of gravity.

The photo appears to show the nissan is made of stronger matrerials, i think this may be a little misleading as you quite rightly point out. My point is the nissan engineers designed the tray to be tuf which it clearly is, while the ford engineers could have designed a car with better brakes that didnt weigh two tonnes, instead of systematically creating consumer demand for bigger and flashier 'PICKUPTRUCKS' then trying to cocoon the occupants in crumple zones.

PS i know new small cars have crumple zones too, and i may regret these coments if i ever end up sharing my front seat with a RB30.

[FrangaR33]

I think you may be missing the point mate! cars wth pillows wrapped round them(crumple zones) to protect mentally deficient american drivers are an example of ramping up secondary safety, the old ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. Designers should make cars wth better primary safety ie fit better tyres, brakes and cut down unnecessary weight while also lowering centre of gravity.

The photo appears to show the nissan is made of stronger matrerials, i think this may be a little misleading as you quite rightly point out. My point is the nissan engineers designed the tray to be tuf which it clearly is, while the ford engineers could have designed a car with better brakes that didnt weigh two tonnes, instead of systematically creating consumer demand for bigger and flashier 'PICKUPTRUCKS' then trying to cocoon the occupants in crumple zones.

PS i know new small cars have crumple zones too, and i may regret these coments if i ever end up sharing my front seat with a RB30.

I must say I disagree people are still going to crash no matter what you put in their cars. People will always push the limits of their brakes and tyres and they need that safety net of crumple zones and airbags etc. The vast majority of crashes I wont call them accidents because there not, are the drivers fault not some failing in their car, I read an interview with the Head of UK road safety for the UK Police he said that 98% of all accidents are all on the driver no mechanical failure what so ever. So I think its better they do spend the money on the crash safety, god knows how many lives its saved. We've all taken our eyes off the road for a second and then boom we could be in the back of a car or truck, no brakes or tyres will save you if the kids are screaming in the back and your trying to stop them throwing crap at you while driving for example and you dont pay attention for a single second.

[TALBO]

I think you may be missing the point mate! cars wth pillows wrapped round them(crumple zones) to protect mentally deficient american drivers are an example of ramping up secondary safety, the old ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. Designers should make cars wth better primary safety ie fit better tyres, brakes and cut down unnecessary weight while also lowering centre of gravity.

Crumple zones are nothing new even for Australian made cars, they are proven to be safer and work well with SRS and other safety technology like ABS. There are many more safety devices or technologies built into cars these days and along with crumple zones are engine and transmission cross member bolts designed to shear and allow for the drivetrain to supposedly fall underneath the car instead of go through the firewall.

[brent32]

I agree crumple zones are good - but the pictre of the ford pickup still demonstrates how much work went into secondary or passive safety, versus the distinct lack of work which goes into active or primary ability of the vehicle to avoid the crash.

The argument that people in a better handling and stopping vehicle will just drive faster and closer to other vehicles and therefore still have accidents would imply that it doesnt matter how safe a car is people are trying to crash despite the efforts of automotive engineers. If you are one of these people i suggest you stop replying to this forum and go and crash your car hard enough to negate the inherant protection engineered into your car.

[FrangaR33]

I agree crumple zones are good - but the pictre of the ford pickup still demonstrates how much work went into secondary or passive safety, versus the distinct lack of work which goes into active or primary ability of the vehicle to avoid the crash.

The argument that people in a better handling and stopping vehicle will just drive faster and closer to other vehicles and therefore still have accidents would imply that it doesnt matter how safe a car is people are trying to crash despite the efforts of automotive engineers. If you are one of these people i suggest you stop replying to this forum and go and crash your car hard enough to negate the inherant protection engineered into your car.

That is exactly my argument, and the accident rates speak for themselves they keep going up, people will still crash as long as there is the human factor behind the wheel. No esp, traction control or abs is going to stop that, even with Radar guided cruise control you still might crash if you forgot to turn it on like one journalist testing it in Germany. Personally I drive a car with no traction control, Abs or any other form of driver assist. I would like to have them but I dont, but I do like having crumple zones and things to keep me safe in the event of an accident.

I would love to have better brakes and better handling but at the end of the day cars are tailored towards the masses not the enthusaists.

[brent32]

primary safety should be for everyone not just enthusiasts, problem is that manufacturers create products primarily for economic gain. Who cares if your car folds up like an aluminium can when it is in a nose to tail( more money for them when you replace it ) when common sense says build a car that would have never have had a problem pulling up in the first place. As consumers we should vote with our feet when cars are designed and marketed as crumpling behemoths with 20 airbags that can protect even the stupidest drivers from themselves.

I was driving a hire VE commodore the other day they have massive A pillars to accommodate the airbags in them. Never mind it cuts down your range of vision at intersections, classic secondary safety over primary, who needs to see whats coming down the road i have multiple airbags!!!!

I really think in cases like this the secondary saftey is there to help market and sell the car and actually makes the car harder to fix after an accident. More right offs equals more profits when the right offs are replaced.

[FrangaR33]

primary safety should be for everyone not just enthusiasts, problem is that manufacturers create products primarily for economic gain. Who cares if your car folds up like an aluminium can when it is in a nose to tail( more money for them when you replace it ) when common sense says build a car that would have never have had a problem pulling up in the first place. As consumers we should vote with our feet when cars are designed and marketed as crumpling behemoths with 20 airbags that can protect even the stupidest drivers from themselves.

I was driving a hire VE commodore the other day they have massive A pillars to accommodate the airbags in them. Never mind it cuts down your range of vision at intersections, classic secondary safety over primary, who needs to see whats coming down the road i have multiple airbags!!!!

I really think in cases like this the secondary saftey is there to help market and sell the car and actually makes the car harder to fix after an accident. More right offs equals more profits when the right offs are replaced.

There we can definetly agree. Enthusiasts will be willing to pay an extra couple of grand for better suspension or brakes but most people wont bother. Its just like the new Mustang debacle, Ford shave 5k off the price allegedly by not having IRS on any of its new Mustangs. Also the weight gains in these cars is just astronomical, on old VN Commodore Calais weights on 1350kg or there abouts but a new VE weights about 500kg more, all that extra inertia and weight ruining braking distances and fuel economy. We want fuel ecomony yet continue to build these behemoths.

[JSTA33]

toyota and nissan are best brands, followed by honda etc..

every ford owner i have spoken to has had problems with the trans,. some people with the brakes..

not 100% sure about holdens, because all the commodore owners i know have older commodores, and theyre bullet proof, they get thrashed every day and still get you home.

in the end its a personal opinion, you drive wha you like cos you pay for it.!

lets put it this way.. jap cars look more expensive then holdens, like my 95 model skyline looks better then the vz commodores costing 3 grand extra.!

[eeiko321]

toyota and nissan are best brands, followed by honda etc..

lets put it this way.. jap cars look more expensive then holdens, like my 95 model skyline looks better then the vz commodores costing 3 grand extra.!

the funny thing is, Hondas dont make turbo cars...but make bikes... where as Toyotas and nissans do but they dont manufacture bikes.

well 95 model Skyline....

that wouldve been a VN or VP commodore.. it looked like Dogs balls compared to the likes of a Supra or GT-R which were made at the same Era.

[brent32]

lets put it this way.. jap cars look more expensive then holdens, like my 95 model skyline looks better then the vz commodores costing 3 grand extra.!

i think you will find the particular jap models your talking about would have been alot more expensive than local 4 doors of the era if they had been sold here new. More expensive cars always look better than ones that cost half as much.

eg AUS new skyline GTR in 89-90 was 100k when a local Commodore SS Group A was about 50k so Im guessing if you could have brought a GTST new in australia in 95 it would have been more expensive than a similar mid spec commodore.

Also you have to remember australian car import prices are artificially inflated by import tarrifs and the SEVS scheme which protects australian manufacturers like holden and ford from competition from second hand imports by artificially raising the landed complied price, in NZ which has no import tarrifs there is very few holdens or fords on the road and almost all cars are 2nd hand imports from japan. If you could just buy a car in japan and import it to australia with no complience costs, there would be alot less 10-15yo holdens and fords being driven by australians.

Another thing is that import cars in australia are primarily two door sports coupes like Skyline, sylvia, rx7 and supra. There is plenty of cheap jap 4 doors which arent allowed in australia like nissan primeras, mitsibishi lancer GSRs, mazda familias, honda vigor and even toyota altezza which is already sold here as lexus IS

[iseekool]

I got an old Motor mag that pit this GTS-R against the R33 GT-R

The VT HSV clubbys were pretty hopeless too

yeah they have improved recent years

but even till this day... the VE

the reliablility is still............ questionable...

unlike Nissans..and especially toyotas whom were always well known for reliablility

oh and not to mention.... do you remember the HSV GTS-R? (pictured below)

(yes this big hunk of junk, i think it was a VN )

This was featured in Wheels magazine many years ago...

it was compared with cars at the same era...which was The Mitsubishi Lancer EVO 4 & a Standard Subaru Imprezza WRX

(non-STI)

both 4cyls ABSOLOUTELY annihilated the f**k outa this big brute....

it really put it to shame with the figures...

The evo was the runner up but even the WRX..SMASHED IT.....

i read the article years ago and i will never forget it.

as i said, holdens were way behind in the technology before