Wolf 3D V4 vs PowerFC

[ed]

hahaha damn, I should read all of his post

there is only water temp compensation on the powerfc isn't there?

If there is a air intake temp compensation then i just learnt something new

[Sydneykid]

Hi ed, I know I can plug a Power FC into the Skyline model it was designed for and the car will start and run well enough to drive it to the dyno. I don't have that sort of confidence with any other ECU. What if its too lean and/or too retarded and overheats? What if I have to drive it that way for a couple of days until I can get it to the shop? That's an example of a risk.

What if you have interference on the TPS circuit and the car won't run properly? Do you know how to fix it?

What if load point 8 is too lean and load point 9 is too rich, but you only have 16 to choose from on the Wolf? With the PFC you have load point 11 (out of 20) which falls nicley in between the Wolf 8 & 9. You can now tune more accurately.

Firing 2 plug at once wears them out faster, this is a risk.

Firing 2 injectors at once uses more fuel or you can really lean out the mixture to compensate. But what if at certain loads its too lean? This is another risk.

What if 16 bit X 16 mhz is too slow? At 5,000 rpm the Wolf runs 4 cycles per revolution of the crank. Whereas 32 bit X 33 mhz is 12 cycles per revolution of the crank. So the Wolf has 3 more cylinder firings for something wrong to go uncorrected. This is a risk.

All of these are simplifications to demonstrate a point, don't get me wrong Wolf is not a bad ECU. My experience has been that Power FC 's are better (not perfect). Others may have different experiences.

Hope that explains further

[N I B]

Wolf has 6 sequential ignition outputs and a good tuner can move the wolf load points were they need them.And your not stuck with the worst hand controller on the market or the lack of air temp etc.Again you have shot your mouth off and have been wrong as only the base 3D is waste spark like the big guys in town ( Autronic for example) V4-4 ond plugins have sequential ign.

[rb20-calais]

guys, as i see it this should go like a debate as discussion creates knowledge (well for the people reading).

Steve, you know your stuff but you have to respect Sydneykid does as well.

You should like everyone on the board respect his ideas and if you find them to be false "in your experience" say that. I respect both you and Sydneykid and what you both have to say.

Sorry if I sound ... Autocratic as I am not acting so. I just think if you dont give others repsect then respect will be lost for you.

Respect to both Sydneykid and Steve-SST,

Evan

[JimX]

Steve-SST, I have to disagree with you this time. I don't believe Sydneykid has shot his mouth off at all. He has quoted (I believe honestly) his past experience with the Wolf. He has even said that it may have been updated since he last used it.

However until someone like yourself comes along and tells us exactly WHICH of the issues he found were fixed or updated, it's safe to say that at least some of the Wolf ECU's still around have these problems.

Ok so you have stated that the current Wolf has 6 sequential ignition points, so that's one thing fixed in the latest release. What about the rest? Flaming Sydneykid is not going to make the Wolf look any better - if anything it looks like you're trying to cover stuff up.

[Emre]

JimX asked

Btw, I read a review of the PowerFC recently and they were unable to find any menus with temperature compensation for air or water. Was it just that they didn't know where to find it, or can you not do it with the hand controller?

Power Fc has the water temperature correction and it's accessible by the handcontroller.

It also has Injector vs Air temp. and Boost, Injector vs Water temp and Boost, Ignition vs Water temp, Ignition vs Air temp etc. but these are not accessible by the hand controller.

[JimX]

Thanks Emre. What else can't you get to with the hand controller?I think I'll have to borrow Tony's Datalogit at some point

[Sydneykid]

Sorry Steve, I bow to your superior knowledge. But as I said I can only go on what I have in front of me and the experiences I personally have had. The manual I was was given said 4 injector drivers and 4 ignition drivers. That's what the ECU came with. As does the Wolf web site as per this link

http://www.wolfems.com.au/products/enginem...rsion4brochures

Now if they are posting the wrong information on the their web site how can I trust their equipment?

As for air temp correction, we have it on our GTR's (R32 and R33) with Power FC's. But I am not as rude as you and won't say stuff like "you have shot your mouth off and have been wrong".

What about the 10 other examples I gave, am I wrong on all of those as well? If so, please help me understand as, like you, I would really prefer to use an Australian product. We use a lot of Motec equipment, so I have no problem when the local stuff is up to speed for the price.

[Emre]

There are a few more but i cant remember now, i will have the car on the dyno tomorrow and have a look.

From what i've been told all the factory default settings that you can not access with the handcontroller are pretty spot on anyway. The main benefit of the datalogit is, as it's name suggests, logging data.

[JimX]

Thanks again Emre.

Back onto the Wolf - after reading the brochures on Wolf's site, it says "Up to 6 ignition outputs (model specific)" which seems to be the only thing updated on the Wolf since Sydneykid last used it.

[N I B]

You say theirs not enough load sites but PFC has 20 rpm sites but the wolf has 20 rpm sites by 2500 rpm (every 125rpm) but the Wolf can be set from about 200 sites to 2048 so its very flexible and you don't have to waste time tuning at a resolution that not needed but is there when its needed.

[T0nyGTSt]

I gotta admit that the hand controller is pretty damn gay but if you're not tuning it and your tuner doesn't have a problem with it, why do you care?

It does bother me that there are options in the FC that cannot be accessed with the HC though.

T.

[N I B]

This is getting silly dose anyone think that their tuner is tuning down to 0.1 deg over approx 1000+ timing sites? you guys are forgetting that your Skylines have a cam angle sensor driven by a very long cam driven by a belt, how stable is that? etc etc etc.

Wolf and Power fc are very good ECUs for your Skylines, Pick the one that suits you and know that you have a good ECU either way you choose to go but check facts for your self .

[rev210]

Originally posted by Sydneykid

What if load point 8 is too lean and load point 9 is too rich, but you only have 16 to choose from on the Wolf?  With the PFC you have load point 11 (out of 20) which falls nicley in between the Wolf 8 & 9.   You can now tune more accurately.

What if 16 bit X 16 mhz is too slow?  At 5,000 rpm the Wolf runs 4 cycles per revolution of the crank.  Whereas 32 bit X 33 mhz is  12 cycles per revolution of the crank.   So the Wolf has 3 more cylinder firings for something wrong to go uncorrected.  This is a risk.

I think the 16x16 map is more than enough for a street car. Ok, so the PFC has 20x20 thats still less than half the number of load points the E11 plugin from haltech offers 32x32 (not to mention the fact that it has sepparate ambient temp AND barometric load points x32 in addition) . Don't think I've seen a PFC tuned that used each of the 400 load points individually programed yet, I've not seen enough I suppose and those haven't been race cars. Point is 256 adjustments is probably enough given the very small rpm increments availible either wolf or PFC for a road car.

On the processor side of things. The bit rate x the processor speed does not give you the 'refresh rate', its more complicated than that.

[dojobi]

Originally posted by -Joel-

Its not the case Mic33R.

It will be because they have had a tune. Not because they got rid of the MAF.

I'm just going on the results I've seen on the LS1.com.au forums. I'm talking about using LS1 Edit to remap the factory ECU. The MAFless tunes are almost always higher than the MAF tunes by around 10rwkw. There are a lot of examples of people taking in their highly tuned MAF'd car and having it retuned for MAFless operation. I can find you a few dyno sheets if you're really interested.

There is a RB25/RB20 dyno compare that has Gregpin's R33 running a MAF and a powerfc with around 200rwkw and also freebagins which is also making around 200rwkw. The Rb20 is making 190rwkw.. besides the point Gregpins power curve is a lot smoother where as freebagins is a little lumpy.  

Do a search.

Sounds very likely. I was just talking about the experiences of the people on the LS1 board. For all I know the LS1 has a restrictive MAF. If I hadn't seen the results they got, I would have been the first to point out that MAP tunes are coarser than MAF tunes.

Cheers,

Michael

[Cubes]

I am aware that the standard LS1 MAF's are restrictive this is why they have a upgrade MAF or replacement MAF that apparently also increases power?!?!

Not really sure maybe you could clear it up for me?!?!

[dojobi]

They used to replace the MAFs or port them in the days before LS1 Edit as it would trick the computer into running leaner as more air would flow through, but it wouldn't know this as it expected a smaller diameter. This is not really needed these days with LS1 Edit though. Whether it is actually restrictive for flow, I'm not sure on.

[Sydneykid]

Hi Rev and Steve-SST, we all know that 16 X 16 loads is plenty for a well tuned road car and (re; the processor) I did say that "All of these are simplifications to demonstrate a point".

But someone said that Wolfs were easily better than PFC's, had way more features, were higher spec and cost heaps less. I simply don't believe this to be true and I have chosen a few items from my readings and personal experience to support my case. Sure some of the stuff is deep down in the specs, but what do you want me to do? Make broad sweeping statements without the facts to support it?

So far no one seems to be able to reciprocate.

[JimX]

Let's just forget about the number of loads points for a minute, because I actually agree that it's not even the main concern here. It seems the Wolf people have jumped back on this issue while cotinuing to ignore the other stuff Sydneykid mentioned. Primarily, number of injector outputs, base map, idle compensation, and dash warning lights.

Even with the above issues, I can imagine where the Wolf might be better - for example, if you have a track car requiring a lot of in-house tuning, the easier to use software and better hand controller interface have got to be a fundamental advantage. Even if you aren't pressed for time between mods and in-house tuning, the easier tuning methods might seal the decision for you.

I have to agree with what Steve-SST said - "Wolf and Power fc are very good ECUs for your Skylines, Pick the one that suits you and know that you have a good ECU either way you choose to go but check facts for your self". Checking the facts is the whole reason I started this thread so I thank everyone for providing info on both ECUs.

But with all that said, I don't think you say that one is better than the other for everything. I have to admit that before Sydneykid posted, the only thing I thought the Wolf was deficient on was the knock sensor, but now I am more learned

[GTS-t VSPEC]

How many of the race cars run with PowerFC's around Waneroo racecourse? None. How many use Wolfs? About half.

How many auxillary inputs and outputs do PowerFC's have? Are they fully configurable?