Advice On Subs + Amp

[nikr33turb]

Want a good quality set up for my r33, Have been looking at two Alpine Type r's 12". But for everything i read saying they are good i read something saying dont bother. I listen to mainly rock, and am re-doing my whole system so they dont have to match anything yet....

Also what would be a good amp for these?

ANY advice would be mint!

Cheers Nick

[Turbz RB-25]

They are ok subs.

Go a single kicker 12" L7 in a ported box, sound is much better, more DB, less space, and it's square, so it equates to roughly a 13" circular subwoofer.

[nikr33turb]

  Turbz RB-25 said:

They are ok subs.

Go a single kicker 12" L7 in a ported box, sound is much better, more DB, less space, and it's square, so it equates to roughly a 13" circular subwoofer.

Is the an amp that would power two of these comfortably?

Cheers,

[Turbz RB-25]

  nikr33turb said:

Is the an amp that would power two of these comfortably?

Cheers,

What ohm are you gonna run? DUal 4 or Dual 2?

[nikr33turb]

  Turbz RB-25 said:

What ohm are you gonna run? DUal 4 or Dual 2?

Dual 4, i think dont really know what determines this.... bit of a rookie

[Turbz RB-25]

  nikr33turb said:

Dual 4, i think dont really know what determines this.... bit of a rookie

Dual 4 you can run 2ohm or 8 ohm (depending if you wire it in parallel of series)

Dual 2 ohm can run 1 ohm or 4 ohm (depending if you wire it in parallel of series)

I suggest you go to BDL or somewhere else that has the Type Rs and listen to all of them.

Basically, in a vehicle, you would not go higher than 4 ohm as running anything higher requires alot more power.

The basic principle with ohms is, a 4 ohm driver will require twice as much power to run as a 2 ohm subwoofer, however, you get much clearer sound quality.

If you've hear subs at 1 ohm, usually high SPL subs, they sound like garbage, but are hell loud.

You need to first decide on what you are after, SPL (1 or 2 ohm subwoofer) or sound quality (SQ) 4 ohm subwoofer.

if you choose 4 ohm, you will need a much more powerful amp to run it.

You will also notice with amps that some are 1 and 2 ohm stable, when running 1 ohm, the power output usually doubles, but sound quality decreases.

As I said, got to your local audio shop, listen to each sub, see what you like, then you can make a decision from there.

[Carbon 34]

I think you need to consider this first

how much space do you want to loose??

how much weight do you want in your boot ? (its a performance car)

how much custom work are you willing to do or pay for ?

do you plan on competing in car sound offs? or car show displays?

12" subs take more space then 10" and a good 10"sounds better then a average 12"

how much do you plan to spend ? parts and labour

will you listen to it loud all the time? or do you want sound quality over SPL(sound pressure) ?

what kind of other speakers do you have up front, head unit ? you would want a balanced sound not a sub with factory speakers and deck

there are hundreds of woofer companies, not just kicker,alpine. and most companies produce cheap version(50.00+), and vary all the way up to really expensive models(2000.00+) cost doesn't equate to good sound, box design is a huge factor

and for amps, too much power and current draw will need extra mods to improve your charging circuits, battery, alternator, wiring, etc?

do you have a amp running the other speakers or will that amp run the fronts too ?

don't overlook, some of the basic brands, Jaycar amps won the car audio" First place "best buy. and can drive low ohm loads with tons of power.

and cheap too.

I don't sell subs or amps (yet) but create audio show pieces, and custom sub boxes . since 1987 , so I'm not brand biased but know what works

Edited April 30, 2009 by sapphiregraphics

[Turbz RB-25]

  sapphiregraphics said:

I think you need to consider this first

how much space do you want to loose??

how much weight do you want in your boot ? (its a performance car)

how much custom work are you willing to do or pay for ?

do you plan on competing in car sound offs? or car show displays?

12" subs take more space then 10" and a good 10"sounds better then a average 12"

how much do you plan to spend ? parts and labour

will you listen to it loud all the time? or do you want sound quality over SPL(sound pressure) ?

what kind of other speakers do you have up front, head unit ? you would want a balanced sound not a sub with factory speakers and deck

there are hundreds of woofer companies, not just kicker,alpine. and most companies produce cheap version(50.00+), and vary all the way up to really expensive models(2000.00+) cost doesn't equate to good sound, box design is a huge factor

and for amps, too much power and current draw will need extra mods to improve your charging circuits, battery, alternator, wiring, etc?

do you have a amp running the other speakers or will that amp run the fronts too ?

don't overlook, some of the basic brands, Jaycar amps won the car audio" First place "best buy. and can drive low ohm loads with tons of power.

and cheap too.

I don't sell subs or amps (yet) but create audio show pieces, and custom sub boxes . since 1987 , so I'm not brand biased but know what works

+1, good advice.

[Carbon 34]

  Turbz RB-25 said:

Dual 4 you can run 2ohm or 8 ohm (depending if you wire it in parallel of series)

Dual 2 ohm can run 1 ohm or 4 ohm (depending if you wire it in parallel of series)

dual 2 ohms can run .5 ohm load or .25 ohm bridged on two channel amp for two subs, which takes some serious amp to run that load

I suggest you go to BDL or somewhere else that has the Type Rs and listen to all of them.

Basically, in a vehicle, you would not go higher than 4 ohm as running anything higher requires alot more power. a lower OHM woofer takes more power from the amp, but the amp creates more on that ohm load up to the point of transistor saturation that causes distortion, fuse blows or amp shuts down.

higher ohm loads are safer but take more power to get to the same loudness in general terms for the same box

The basic principle with ohms is, a 4 ohm driver will require twice as much power to run as a 2 ohm subwoofer, however, you get much clearer sound quality. clear sound can be had by any decent woofer with a proper box

If you've hear subs at 1 ohm, usually high SPL subs, they sound like garbage, but are hell loud. ohm load doesn't make them sound worse, box design, stiff suspension, cone construction does.

You need to first decide on what you are after, SPL (1 or 2 ohm subwoofer) or sound quality (SQ) 4 ohm subwoofer.

if you choose 4 ohm, you will need a much more powerful amp to run it.

You will also notice with amps that some are 1 and 2 ohm stable, when running 1 ohm, the power output usually doubles, but sound quality decreases.

not always the case, and a sub amp distortion isnt as noticeable to the ear . some amps are designed to run 1 ohm always with low distortion

As I said, got to your local audio shop, listen to each sub, see what you like, then you can make a decision from there. sound rooms and sound boards, don't do justice to show off a sub , so keep a open mind

[nikr33turb]

Space + Weight are not an issue, I dont have my stereo full ball very often so after more quality than how loud it "can" go...

Would like a show quality install into the boot and dont mind paying for it.

I like the alpine head units with I-pod direct plug and play, And a v12 4 channel amp for the front splits (want to spent about 600 on them) nad 6 inch fills in the back ( about 400) . WOuld this give me anything decent?

[some_cs_student]

Do some reading on the Mobile Electronics Australia website, most recommend not spending much at all on rear fill.

$600 get good splits, but it all depends on what your definition is, are you going active setup? Passive setup? How extreme are you with sound quality?

Are you sound deadening?

[ydawak]

I agree with sapphiregraphics, you should first decide what way you want to go with the intstall. Do you want to compete? or do you just want good sound?

To throw a different like on the issue, i used to compete in car audio shows with a dual port sub box with 2x 12inch sony subs (before the xplod came out) and ran them off a 2 channel sony amp. I had 2 x x6x9's in the custom parcel shelf and splits in the front. The speakers were pioneer, and they were not the flagship models. The speakers were run on high pass frequency because all the base came from the subs. the speakers had a 4 channel amp 90RMS x 4 @ 4ohm. i didnt win many shows but i did get a couple of second places and the thing is that the total set up didnt cost much at all. Head unit was sony Mini disc player from 1999 What i am really saying, which is in line with sapphiregraphics, is that brand is not neccesarily representative of good sound. It comes down to the install more than anything. I am sure i can set up a 10k system to sound shit!!!

The one best tip that i was ever given is that invest in good quality cables for the setup. If you want to skimp on anything dont skimp there..

Just my 20 cents

[Carbon 34]

  some_cs_student said:

Do some reading on the Mobile Electronics Australia website, most recommend not spending much at all on rear fill.

$600 get good splits, but it all depends on what your definition is, are you going active setup? Passive setup? How extreme are you with sound quality?

Are you sound deadening?

mandatory sound deadening doors at the least..... skyline doors rattle and hum alot...lol

yeah once again depends on if you want SQ or 5.1 dolby surround sound for movies in the dash? then you need rear fill, and centerchannels. which needs to be taken into account for amp selection??

a skyline is so small its money better spent on really good front speakers if you want clear sounding SPL or full sound ....not caring about your back seat passengers

who even fits in the back seat?, what a waste..lol guess it wasnt designed for tall people to drive like me

a few hundred can buy good splits, if you shop smart, or buy the right parts to create your own splits with SEAS, Morel,Vifa, Focal parts. which are the best money can buy in most cases, great smooth sound, high SPL. power handling off the scale with the right xover. but you must know how to mount, with baffles, and create xovers by hand. easy for some of us but not the average installer at your local shop

find a good installer , ask chris rodgers he know a lot (including me..lol), maybe near you ? as I'm in adelaide and not geared up for biz yet.

[Carbon 34]

  nikr33turb said:

Space + Weight are not an issue, I dont have my stereo full ball very often so after more quality than how loud it "can" go...

then I would go a really good 10"DVC in a properly built box, has the balls to blast if needed. but sound great all the time, not consume the whole boot in the process. Two if you desire louder??

Would like a show quality install into the boot and dont mind paying for it. it can get expensive fast(easily exceed 1000+) if you go fiberglass or carbon fiber like mine, over MDF and take time, do you have another car to use ??? have you consider that ?

dont rush the install for show quality work, consider warranties on installs too, lifetime for good ones

stealth show or full visible when you open the boot ???

I like the alpine head units with I-pod direct plug and play, And a v12 4 channel amp for the front splits (want to spent about 600 on them) nad 6 inch fills in the back ( about 400) . WOuld this give me anything decent?

yes, i had 5 - V12's (148db on old Audio control RTA with great SQ,stealth install)in my Galant Evo VR4 ....good stuff for decent price

Alpine head unit is fine choice , if it has the feature's you need,, DVD, etc??

Edited April 30, 2009 by sapphiregraphics

[SL33K]

Just buy mine, lol

hahaha.

garauntee u wont regret the sound. Sounds very clean and loud

SUBS are wired for 2ohms

And amp also Give out 600RMS at 2ohms

Not sure if this is what ur looking for but maybe some experts around here can give u the right direction.

Just uploaded pics of the type of SUB and Amp

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/Ca...56#entry4566656

Cheers

Edited April 30, 2009 by VishR33

[rocketboy]

Had a quick skim read of the thread and would have to agree and disagree on a few things. The followong is just my opinion...

Most subs including lower to mid level subs can sound great in a box that has been designed and built well.

As a general rule, you'd use a sealed enclosure for SQ and a ported box for higher volume - and that is certainly not to say a ported box won't sound as good as a sealed, just a generalisation. Also, your sub can handle more power in a sealed enclosure as the pressure inside the box helps stiffen up the speaker.

I don't believe the coild resistance has a huge amount to do with SQ vs SPL, usually dual 2ohm coils and lower resistance are aimed at SPL, I understand this. But there are great sounding subs with a dual 2ohm config. Dual 1ohm or smaller will certainly almost always be aimed at SPL.

The resitance of the coils allows you to get more power out of your amp. Example, A 2ohm sub can be wire 3 ways - series which would show the amp a 4ohm load, parallel would show a 1ohm load and a single VC being run would show a 2ohm load (although halve the sub power handling because you are simply using only half the motor).

Now, most amps will output different amounts of power depending what load you put across the speaker terminals. I will use a mono amp for example.

My RF mono outputs 500wrms when a 4ohm load is put on it. When a 2ohm load is out in, it will push out 750wrms, and if it has a 1ohm load it will but 1000wrms into the sub. So you see as the resitance is lowered, the more power the amp will put out. Be careful as only higher end amps are rated to handle a 1ohm load.

The type R subs are ok IMO, more than ok for your average joe and can and will sound great in a well designed and built box. Sure, you can get better, but for a small part of the audio spectrum, I'd spend more on a good set of front components as this is where you set up your soundstage. Get that right and the sub should blend into the fornt soundstage well.

As for matching your subs to a good amp, I'd simply look for a good brand amp (so you know it puts out the power it says it does, there are so many amps that stae they are mega wattage and have small fuses) that matches your power requirements or is close. Fusing is a good sign of false advertising.. Bank on around 1amp of fusing for a 100wrms output on the amp - exmaple; an amp that states puts out 1000wrms should have around 100amps worth of fuses built in. 90 amps is fine as a lot of good 1kw monos use 3 x 30amp fusing. So if you have 2 subs, each running dual 4ohm VC's, each sub will be a 2ohm load if wired in parallel or 8ohm in series.

If you use a mono, you can wire two parallel wired subs to the mono to show a total load of 1ohm (dual 4ohm sub wired in paralle = 2ohm + another 2ohm = 1ohm). So if you have a 1ohm stable amp that puts out 1000wrms@1ohm, each sub will be getting 500wrms.

If you load said amp with two series wired subs: Dual 4ohm wired series=8ohm + another 8ohm = 4ohm load (resistance is halved). The amp sees 4ohms and produces 500wrms and therefore 250wrms to each sub.

Hopefully this shows the relationship between resistance (ohms) and amp loading. Another thing to think about is speaker (in this case) sensitivity as this can have an effect on output/volume. A 500wrms sub(that means the sub can handle 500wrms continously, it is not a power output figure of the speaker) that has an efficiency of say 86db will be quieter than a 500wrms sub with and efficiency of 93db on the same amp. This is not black and white as different companies use different measurement for efficiency, but I won't get into that here.

I hope some of this helps you out. And let me emphasise the importance of a well built box! the right volume and port size (if ported) will make an average rated sub sound good. And sound deadening is a must for anyone serious about car audio - search these forums or forums like Talk Audio, Nzicemag etc for more info.

Cheers,

Rich

[RxGTR]

If you really like your alpines and want show car then you should get the Type-Rs and get the PDX series amps. They look sexy as in a custom fibreglass enclosure. But in the other case if you want stupidly good clarity ones i think the Sound stream or rockford subs are good.