Rb20 Neo

[StevenCJR31]

such unecessary anger and sledging. . .

Edited August 19, 2013 by StevenCJR31

[BenR]

Well if that is how you get your jolleys why not take it a step further and put a CA18E motor in your skyline and spend $15k making it perform almost as well as a stock rb20det? It just sounds absolutely mind boggling retarded pushing shit up hill with a motor like this, cost more, takes more time, won't work as well, basically everything is worse, more difficult and the end result is worse than a stock rb25det neo in absolutely every single regard.

Just throw it in the bin and buy a motor that was designed to do what you want, not try and hack up the piece of shit model to almost do what you want. You can get a sense of achievement studying an engineering degree, spending $10k on a boat anchor or a motor isn't a sense of achievement, it is borderline retardation. I will never understand why people do things like this, there is good reason why it has never been done before...

edit: you've gone and removed the one feature that would have made this a half decent motor.. VCT. Now I really have to ask are you just doing this to troll us?

Yep pretty much you might as well just throw all your cash in your fireplace otherwise!

It also has an extra 25% capacity so drives infinitely better along with having VCT

*sigh*....deep breath *sigh again*

My mother always told me that empty vessels make the most noise.

I guess this sort of attitude is more disappointing than an enthusiastic chav who bolts every LED onto his car.......this is pure opinionated narrow-mindedness at its peak.

Why is a wonderful question.....Why bother, why are you running an RB25 Neo when a 1jz.....hell, why bother with an RB at all? Tomei make virtually unbreakable oil pumps buy using toyota components, so why not just use the rest of the toyota and put in a 2jz?.........Bugger it, why bother at all, why arent you running an LS3? after all, for the money it is better.

Frankly the considerations as to why someone does anything is purely down to their own working parameters.

So lets start with mine.

The engine will be used in race series where the class is fairly open, you cannot increase capacity......so a 2.5 or 2.5 or even 3ltr rb vs a 2ltr evo isnt fair in their eyes.

When building a race engine, one that lasts, you're going to spend money irrespective. Forged rods and pistons are the same price irrespective if they go into a 2ltr or 2.5. Same goes for rods/pistons/valvetrain/MLS gaskets etc etc etc.........I have spent no more on this build then I would on any other RB. Neither is it any of your concern to worry about how much I spend, but thanks for the concern. I wont mention the custom plenum and long branch manifold I'm having made....that might completely send you over the edge.

As for pushing shit up a hill. My original engine, before the crap design oil pump decided to eat itself, was making 420bhp, so as much, if not more, as your rb25 neo. With the new build it will be making circa 500-550bhp...........and that sounds crap doesnt it. The fact that my shit little 2ltr runs on average 3-4 seconds a lap faster round a comparable circuit than the 600-700 GTR's.......but maybe that says more about me than the cars.

I dont even know why I'm validating my decision, I feel like I'm talking to that guy in the pub who drinks VB and thinks the 'local pub is for local people'.

But anyway.

VCT is useless to me in a race car..........the engine will be operating purely between 4000 and 9500rpm. Likewise, too much torque is of little use to me when I'm traction limited, so a wide powerband with a gentle torque curve is of more use. You've seen all the 900bhp racing GTR's.....they become point and squirt machines.

I mean, what do you want me to say, to concur with you that its a waste of time?

I personally find it great fun doing something nobody else has done.

Tell you what, you might hate this as well, I build Ferrari engines for a living.........they are all of a shit design........RB them as well? Christ, I wont mention any of the totally crap historic motorsport engines I have to deal with, and the totally absurd amounts of money the owners spend on them.

And I notice your on your second engine after the first one didnt work out.......could of saved yourself some money there if you did it properly the first time around. But you must be pretty warm in the winter with your own cash fire roaring away.

Now why dont we agree to disagree on the merits of the project and simply enjoy the journey.

[GTSBoy]

Whilst your first post was quite long, the addition of 1 extra line saying that your class rules restrict you to a 2L would have prevented the obvious responses that a 25 is better.

[Rolls]

The engine will be used in race series where the class is fairly open, you cannot increase capacity......so a 2.5 or 2.5 or even 3ltr rb vs a 2ltr evo isnt fair in their eyes.

Why didn't you just say this to start with?

[Rolls]

Why is a wonderful question.....Why bother, why are you running an RB25 Neo when a 1jz.....hell, why bother with an RB at all? Tomei make virtually unbreakable oil pumps buy using toyota components, so why not just use the rest of the toyota and put in a 2jz?.........Bugger it, why bother at all, why arent you running an LS3? after all, for the money it is better.

Because an rb25 barely costs anymroe and bolts in with essentially zero modifications, the other motors aren't a cheap bolt in affair, if they were cheaper to buy and install I would completely agree with putting an LS3 in.

hen building a race engine, one that lasts, you're going to spend money irrespective. Forged rods and pistons are the same price irrespective if they go into a 2ltr or 2.5. Same goes for rods/pistons/valvetrain/MLS gaskets etc etc etc.........I have spent no more on this build then I would on any other RB.

Ignoring your race series which you didn't mention I would use this as a fantastic example of why you should buy an rb25, it is such a small cost difference when you are already blowing that much cash so why not get the extra 25% capacity if it is basically free?

s for pushing shit up a hill. My original engine, before the crap design oil pump decided to eat itself, was making 420bhp, so as much, if not more, as your rb25 neo. With the new build it will be making circa 500-550bhp...........and that sounds crap doesnt it. The fact that my shit little 2ltr runs on average 3-4 seconds a lap faster round a comparable circuit than the 600-700 GTR's.......but maybe that says more about me than the cars.

It would make even more power with 25% extra capacity...

VCT is useless to me in a race car..........the engine will be operating purely between 4000 and 9500rpm. Likewise, too much torque is of little use to me when I'm traction limited, so a wide powerband with a gentle torque curve is of more use. You've seen all the 900bhp racing GTR's.....they become point and squirt machines.

Extra capacity gives you a wider smoother flatter powerband.... VCT also improves your power band, you would have to be the first person who actually thinks VCT is a detrimental feature.

And I notice your on your second engine after the first one didnt work out.......could of saved yourself some money there if you did it properly the first time around. But you must be pretty warm in the winter with your own cash fire roaring away.

The first one was a backyard build that came with the car, I didn't trust it so put an rb25 in with the nissan stamp of approval, after selling the forgies etc it only cost me $1000, with all the other goodies that came with the car I have 260kw engine with stock drivability that only cost me $10k, Id hazard a guess most people have spent more than this to make less power.

personally find it great fun doing something nobody else has done.

Like I said before, why not go a step further and use a CA18 if you really do find it great fun?

Edited August 20, 2013 by Rolls

[BenR]

Firstly, I wasn't aware that I had to, again, justify any choice I made as to which engine I've decided to use, and I wasn't aware I had to get my sanity certified by the board of sane engine tuning representatives.

I seriously dont see how its really such a travesty to yourself, as to be honest, it has nothing to do with you or your money. Why not sit back and enjoy watching someone doing something else and not following the herd.

If everybody has buying 25 neos, then it would be an incredibly boring choice, and lets face it, half of the fun of building a car you own is uniqueness and character. If everybody was running clones, well, maybe you'd enjoy that. But 25 neo prices would be sky high due to demand and your cheap option would no longer be cheap.

On the subject of cheap........I'm not even knocking on the door of AUS $10k yet and I've got a fully forged motor, tomei cams, custom billet cam pulleys, valve springs, a twin scroll long brand manifold, twin scroll 78mm comp wheel turbo, a RIPS custom CNC inlet manifold, an extra capacity baffled sump, external oil pump setup.

Not exciting enough for you?

As for the extra capacity, it would help generate more torque yes, but thats not something I require. In most race cars you are traction limited anyway, so excessive torque just breaks gearboxes, increases wheel slip angle and lower lap times. A lower torque amount but a higher usable rpm limit results in the same about of BHP usable at the wheels with less of the excessive torque. I will also never be running below 4000rpm, so I wont ever have to worry about low rpm torque.

I mean, most people know that power is a function of force x distance, and if you have a large engine or a small engine, it has little effect on how much power the engine will make. All said and done and all factors equal, capacity simply shifts the torque curve.

Its a prime example yourself, your car spins its wheels through 1st and 2nd, and you dont even have a lot of power. Imagine twice as much power and more traction.

THe VCT system is useless to me. Its an added complication, a PITA to adjust base cam timing on the engine and a possible point of failure. The VCT system itself would not bring anything to the table for me in regards to the torque curve either, I'm beyond its usable spectrum in the rpm range. On the road, sure, its usable, but I dont need it. As far as a system goes, its pretty basic stuff and not what I really consider an even remotely sophisticated VVT system.

It would actually cost me more to retain VCT on a non VCT equipped car and ECU, and have a custom cam profile ground up to run in the head.

Turn that around, and an RB25DET neo engine here costs approx AUS$3000, so thats a huge wad of any budget spent on buying a base motor I would then have to build anyway as I'm not about to trust stock pistons with the 25's track record......even the neos. Comparatively, a whole RB20det costs AUS$ 650........and I didnt need one, I just picked up a Neo head for AUS $170.

Overall, cost wise, power wise and purely badass wise....I've got more for less than your RB25 Neo swap.

If you want to get picky.

But again, why dont you simply chime in with something interesting to say to help the build rather than, ironically, being the actual troll in this thread.

[CEF33Y]

Dude i'm keen to see the result. Props for doing something different.

Im a mad RB20 fan, yes I get shit put on me but I dont care. It is my car after all.

Yes i've driven other RB's, and yes I still have an RB20 in my car!!

[discopotato03]

Things are getting a bit warm in here , no one really needs to justify their aims as long as they're sane .

Two litres is fine when the rules say two litres . I have a mild interest in RB20s but for road and since my car has one an RB25 is what I use .

I agree that for a pure race RB20 variable inlet cam timing doesn't achieve a whole lot because the revs are rarely below the point where a bit less overlap makes any difference . Different for a road car that sees lots of idle to 2500 revs use . Nissan never bothered with RB26s I reckon for the same reasons .

Ultimately the best RB20 would be a shorter stroke RB25 or 26 because of the bigger bores and higher flowing heads , reworking cranks is expensive and the rules may call for an engine that started out as a two litre .

I suppose the roads to reworking a std config RB20 is making the rotating and reciprocating mass as light as possible and using a non hydraulic valve train GTR style would be good .

If you can change inlet manifolds individual throttles would give better throttle response but they probably need to be smaller than RB26 ones . Maybe something lifted from EFI bike engines could be made to work , pointless stuffing around for a nice idle in a race engine which simplifies things here .

Also if the rules don't specify who's engine you use there may be something else out there that's shorter and lighter than an RB20 .

A .

[StevenCJR31]

good point, an SR20 (def lighter/better weight distribution etc)would keep within the two litre rule, but who would want an engine that sounds like a busted ass tractor! :-)

the 20 sounds heaps sweeter

[Rolls]

ut again, why dont you simply chime in with something interesting to say to help the build rather than, ironically, being the actual troll in this thread.

Fair argument. I guess you missed reading my signature, anyway best of luck with the car.

[GTSBoy]

I thought your sig was aimed at me!

[BenR]

Fair argument. I guess you missed reading my signature, anyway best of luck with the car.

Nah, I read it on your first post.

Thanks.

[Rolls]

Yeah I'm kind of an online dick for no reason sometimes.

[StevenCJR31]

^^ we all win that prize once in awhile, especially me

[zac the muss]

An RB20det neo sounds like an awesome idea, and good on the guy who goes out of his way to do something different. I myself, along with alot of other people happen to like rb20s, theyre a good motor in thier own right, they sound good and rev like buggery, but just happen to be overshadowed by 25/26/30s etc.. as for rolls, cant you go and be a wanker somewhere else?

[StevenCJR31]

^^ be nice please

[iruvyouskyrine]

So end result of this is take and RB20DE Neo head, put it on RB20DET (silvertop) bottom end and sort out a decent inlet plenum (I will be going RB26 plenum and throttle bodies). Then you also have to go external VCT feed I guess.

Should give you solid head with VCT and the strength of a vanilla RB20 bottom end.

[BlackBox]

I've noticed my r34 gtt has a sticker in the engine bay that says something along the lines of '2.0Lt'
Is it possible it was once home to an rb20 ?

[zebra]

18 hours ago, iruvyouskyrine said:

So end result of this is take and RB20DE Neo head, put it on RB20DET (silvertop) bottom end and sort out a decent inlet plenum (I will be going RB26 plenum and throttle bodies). Then you also have to go external VCT feed I guess.

Should give you solid head with VCT and the strength of a vanilla RB20 bottom end.

Doesn't the 20neo have some retarded inlet ports?

[WMDC35]

18 hours ago, iruvyouskyrine said:

So end result of this is take and RB20DE Neo head, put it on RB20DET (silvertop) bottom end and sort out a decent inlet plenum (I will be going RB26 plenum and throttle bodies). Then you also have to go external VCT feed I guess.

Should give you solid head with VCT and the strength of a vanilla RB20 bottom end.

I'd just boost the neo & not swap heads

 

9 minutes ago, zebra said:

Doesn't the 20neo have some retarded inlet ports?

They're just smaller to suit the 2l