Good Tow Cars?

[Marlin]

Territory diesel ?

Good thing, but not sub 20k like Rich wants.

[MBS206]

So I've been researching 4WDs more and more.

I'm trying to stay sub 10K, maybe pushing 15K.

I want a 4WD I can sleep in the back of (Fold seats flat etc.) while still managing 5 seats, hence things like hilux etc are kind of out.

Must be actual 4WD capable, not a softroader.

Capable of towing 3T or more.

Prefer Diesel. (I don't want something that will guzzle the juice too badly)

Now, I've been browsing around at 80 series cruisers, and patrols, but I've been told to look at the Discovery (3.5T/4T towing capacity dependent on model from what I've read) and are meant to be good off road, and only slightly less torque than what the 80 series NA diesel makes. Not sure what else to look at in this range...

Looking at Disco 2.5 either 4 or 5 Cylinder Turbo Diesels, but so far I've read no review in this thread on the Discovery except for one person with a petrol one that drinks alot.

Any one else have any experience with them?

[260DET]

Disco's seem to be one of those love em or hate em vehicles so the advantage is they are a bit cheaper than the big Japs. I find by doing a Google search on a particular vehicle that plenty of info comes up, including towing, problems etc. Bloke on PF had one for sale, gone now but he may be good for advice http://performanceforums.com/forums/showthread.php?67270968-98-Land-Rover-Discovery-TDi-PF-Price-4500

Looked at a new Santa Fe the other day just for fun, jeez the interior and particularly the dash is overdone. One thing the Euro's can do is nice, simple interiors.

[hrd-hr30]

So I've been researching 4WDs more and more.

I'm trying to stay sub 10K, maybe pushing 15K.

I want a 4WD I can sleep in the back of (Fold seats flat etc.) while still managing 5 seats, hence things like hilux etc are kind of out.

Must be actual 4WD capable, not a softroader.

Capable of towing 3T or more.

Prefer Diesel. (I don't want something that will guzzle the juice too badly)

Now, I've been browsing around at 80 series cruisers, and patrols, but I've been told to look at the Discovery (3.5T/4T towing capacity dependent on model from what I've read) and are meant to be good off road, and only slightly less torque than what the 80 series NA diesel makes. Not sure what else to look at in this range...

Looking at Disco 2.5 either 4 or 5 Cylinder Turbo Diesels, but so far I've read no review in this thread on the Discovery except for one person with a petrol one that drinks alot.

Any one else have any experience with them?

I have 2 Rover-tragic mates that have owned 3 of these things. Even the Rover tragics won't touch the V8s.

The TDi is either on or off with their power - there is nothing under the boost threshold and when on boost they only go OK-ish. That off boost issue is noticeable even just driving normally, so I imagine it will be pretty intrusive when towing. The TD5 engine is apparently the one to get. Both are very good on fuel. But very unreliable. The amount of broken stuff these guys have changed is incredible - including rear diffs, and these guys don't tow and have only done a handful of serious off-road trips with us - they're normally broken, or limping around nursing problems so they can't go too far afield... Have also had them break-down repeatedly on trips. When they do come, the open diffs, low ground clearance and small tyres will get you stuck well before either the GQ or 80. Rover tragics will crap on about their brilliant A arm suspension and how well it flexes, which is great in theory, but in practice a GQ flexes every bit as well, and gets further when the going is tough. 80s are OK off road too, but their rear LSD is preload only (no cam/ramps) and they give up before a GQ as well.

10K will get you a good GQ 4.2 with aftermarket turbo. That will make more grunt than a Disco, and they're the most reliable old thing around. Or buy a non turbo and a $3000 DTS turbo kit. I sometimes just unbolt the rear seats and throw a matttress in the back of my GQ - you have to build up the area where the seat was to make it flush with the rear floor, but an outdoor furniture cushion and a boogie board does the trick. If you got one with rear drawers, that would go pretty close to being flat with the seats folded down. Or you could make your own rear drawers level with the folded seats.

Not sure about 80s or the Disco, but I don't think any of these old things have fold-flat rear seating. Disco won't be long enough to get a mattress in the back even in the seats do fold flat.

80 series is a bit more modern looking and wider/roomier inside. Probably has the edge in comfort. But the GQ TD42 is the better engine - that's the last time Patrol had a better engine than Cruiser!

My 2c - save yourself the headaches and get a Jap 4WD - 80 series or GQ doesn't matter all that much.

Edited September 24, 2012 by hrd-hr30

[Marlin]

Gotta agree, if you're considering something as lumbering and large as a Disco, you'd be much better served getting something Japanese. We recently had one at Moreton Island for a weekend (good mate owns a car yard). The only, I repeat ONLY good thing about it was the ride over the rougher tracks. Everything else felt either terribly dated (because sub $20k means Disco 2 model), terribly made, rooted, or nearly rooted. Not the first I've driven either, but a reminder as to why I've owned lots of Jap cars, and no Pommy shit.

Oh, and re the Disco, a mate works at the premier Brisbane aftermarket LR specialist, and trust me, it's a recession proof workshop haha. Never a shortage of broken ones lined up out front, usually dropped off via tilt tray.

As I say, if you're considering a Disco size it's time to consider instead;

Prado TDi;

http://www.carsales....~1&sort=default

Pajero TDi

http://www.carsales....~1&sort=default

And I have no doubt you could find a cracking deal on a WH Grand Cherokee TDi if you shopped around (much later year, lower kays, much better performing than the above two)

http://www.carsales....~1&sort=default

All random listings from lists of hundreds available.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Marlin

[hrd-hr30]

They're the things RIchard should be looking at, not bloody Kias and Falcons...

For Matt's budget, a NM onwards petrol Paj would be an option, but not quite as capable off road as the Patrol/Cruiser. Much more modern and comfy though. I'm led to believe these petrol Pajeros don't use any more fuel than the diesel trol or cruiser either. You won't get better than 12l/100 from a NA diesel in the big trucks or about 14 turbo'd.

[260DET]

What sources of info do you have on the Jeeps Ben? Some Jeeps do seem to be problematical or is that a bit of a furphy.

[MBS206]

Thanks for the info guys, I guess I'm going back to looking at the two 4WDs I feel the most comfortable with from the Beginning, Patrol or Cruiser.

[jaffadrifts]

worked for land rover for a bit, please don't get a disco.... u will end up necking yourself.

[Marlin]

What sources of info do you have on the Jeeps Ben? Some Jeeps do seem to be problematical or is that a bit of a furphy.

Heaps of info on Jeeps in other forums. Here's a link to an aussie forum (the model I posted and suggested is the WH, 2005~;

http://www.ausjeepof...splay.php?f=130

What issues the diesels DO have are well known and can be remedied prior to an issue becoming apparent. "Swirl pot" drama is the common problem, it's an emmision thing. The issue is shared with the Merceded ML, which has the same engine (3.0L V6 TDi).

Rest of the Jeep is pretty good, very nice gearbox also shared with ML Merc.

Isolated issues here and there, front diff mount bush often needs replacing if not already done.... but nothing ridiculous. These are a very impressive engine, but like all modern tech diesels, preventative maintenence is key.

These WH disel models are VERY popular for the grey nomads towing vans. They're a great tow vehicle and very frugal on juice. This model was also built in Graz, Austria, NOT the good ole US of A like the latest model.

(*** Personally, I wouldn't put my hand up for ownership of any new tech diesel out of warranty, no matter how good their economy might be. I reckon if you look at the total cost of ownership you're better off with a petrol version as they're usually SO much cheaper to service and maintain/repair).

Edited September 24, 2012 by Marlin

[260DET]

Good point about the petrol -v- diesel total cost thing Ben, CRD's are great to drive with a good auto but I reckon that diesels are becoming just a bit too fashionable which is influencing used prices, from what I've seen lately.

So what 2000+kg tow rated petrol vehicle has potential? Petrol Jeeps any good, up to say $20K?

[hrd-hr30]

you're towing to PI for the Z Nationals right? Probably going inland for the most direct and flatest route for towing? If you have dramas out there, no-one is going to want to touch a Jeep or Rover. Trust me, its a catch-phrase out west "Jeeps and Rovers - no good out here". On our Simpson trip, my mate had to get his Rover back to Toowoomba before anyone could diagnose it. We heard that phrase many many times between Charleville and Toowoomba, and that's not even very far west.

[Marlin]

Really, once any of the range of vehicles we've been discussing gets some years/miles on them I'd be leaning back toward one of the more common and popular optios such as a Prado/Pajero. For instance the same car yard owning mate has an '06 V6 Prado with all the fruit at something like $20k. Not a sell and I have no idea of klm or anything but if yards have them at that price then a private buy or good screwing at a yeard should get a cracking vehicle. If you really find yourself doing epic kays (which you won't), an LPG conversion is always an option.

I'd like to include 'Cruiser/Patrol in there but @ sub $20k the value just isn't there.

Like Harry says, once you're out of the big cities, the popular makes and models are by far the best option. (I still reckon even if you found a late-ish petrol Patrol under $20k they're just a bit too agriculatural to drive daily. Big live axle bouncing away under the front and ball/nut steering boxes. That's just a personal opinion. GREAT things for outback treks and serious off-roading though)

[260DET]

Yeh, no Rovers but no big Jap fourby's either. They make towing sense as far as capability and reliability go but otherwise, meh, no offroad adventuring for me. A properly maintained diesel Santa Fe or Sorento would do and be more comfortable, I drove a Santa Fe the other day which according to the log book had spent it's life travelling between Townsville and WA, it drove nicely. Sorento has a better towing capacity though, according to the forums they are both reliable. But reasonable K's to keep the CRD bogey away?

For anyone buying new a Mitsey Challenger could be the go, 5 speed auto tows 3000kg.

Edited September 25, 2012 by 260DET

[Marlin]

No "big" Jap 4wd's but you considered a Discovery........ Now I'm confused.

Buy a new Challenger and you'll tear up $20k rolling out the showroom. But hey.....

Edited September 25, 2012 by Marlin

[260DET]

Noooo, not the confusion Disco comment was in response to MBS206's question, Challenger mentioned for anyone else interested. Looking at the CRD reliability/durability question again, it seems that it's the Euro's with their particulate filters that have the problems, there are diesel Santa Fe's around that have done over 200K so they seem to be holding together nicely. The one I mentioned before had only done ~80K and drove well but had not been serviced properly and had done most of it's K's towing I suspect.

Edited September 25, 2012 by 260DET

[Tektrader69]

Rich, I know someone with a 2009 Jeep Renegade petrol 4 door he wants to sell urgently. PM me on the zed forum if you want some details

Think its a financial thing. He needs it gone like NOW. Would be sub 20K easily

Edited September 25, 2012 by Tektrader69

[Marlin]

Graham, if Rich doesn't want it would you mind PM-ing me mate? I was actually looking at one for myself today believe it or not!

Rich, don't worry mate, I'm easily confused! haha

Despite all the recent chat I do still think something like a SanteFe would suit you well.

[260DET]

Petrol Jeep won't tow enough for me, it's yours Ben. Thanks for the heads up Tekky.

[Marlin]

PM's sent to you both re Jeep.