Suspension Allignment?

[Birds]

I've recently finished assembling my new Tein SS coilovers with the factory Skyline tops; they are now ready to bolt in. I already have GAB coilovers in there so it should be a straight forward swap. Whilst I'm confident with my installation ability, someone has told me that I should get a suspension expert to perform the installation, as "the suspension will need to be re-alligned or my wheels could end up crooked, resulting in shortened tyre life etc.". I argued with him for 5 minutes, rationalising that the control arms are there to keep the wheels straight and that to my knowledge there is nothing in the standard Skyline suspension that is adjustable. Also that the coilovers are a one piece unit that bolts straight in with no real room for error. I'm no suspension expert, but I don't like paying other people to do things I can do myself (provided I can actually do them). I've installed regular shock and spring combinations before without the need for alligning anything. Can someone tell me if there is truth to what this guy is saying? He was bringing ride height into the argument too, so perhaps he was talking about wheel camber. Vehicle is an R33 GTS-T series 1.

Thanks!

[2LV8ETR]

I'd say he was referring to ride height camber adjustment.

You can get aftermarket components that will solve the isse if you adjust the height to any degree from stock.

[Birds]

I suspected as such too. This guy does like to argue for the sake of arguing or whenever there's a way to show off some knowledge. I fitted my Calibra with polyurethane throughout and installed camber kits on the rear control arms after lowering it; never had an issue with allignment of the suspension though. Whilst a vastly different suspension setup, I just didn't think Skyline suspension could be any more difficult to setup. Particularly as I already have coilovers in there.

Cheers.

[nisskid]

Skylines have rear camber adjustment, as well as toe adjustment. both camber and toe dynamically change with height, if u install coilovers and lower ur car, ur camber will change, and ur toe might, depending on how much bump steer is in ur geometry.

[Birds]

I'm not too concerned about camber, as long as I don't get excessive tyre wear. Toe might be a bother though. If I maintain the same ride height I already have with the current coilovers, then these variables shouldn't change much yeah?

[2LV8ETR]

I'm not too concerned about camber, as long as I don't get excessive tyre wear. Toe might be a bother though. If I maintain the same ride height I already have with the current coilovers, then these variables shouldn't change much yeah?

No it shouldn't change.

Camber will kill the tyres quickly though. I was running only -1.5 for about 3-4 months and it ate the shit out of the inside track. I only did it consciously till I was able to take delivery of the adjustment kit after slamming my car into the weeds.

You can spot the -/+ camber by squatting in front of, or behind the car easily enough.

If you have any real doubts, just get an alignment done, it's cheaper than new tyres.

[nisskid]

camber wear isnt that bad, just make sure u rotate and ull be fine. toe or under/overinflation wrecks tyres more as it wears the tyre in a less reversible way.

[Sydneykid]

Let's clear up something first, R32/33/34's come standard with coil overs, yes the coil spring is fitted over the shock absorber, hence coil over, front and rear. So "sticking coil overs" in a Skyline is a meaningless statement, when the fact is you can't not have coil overs.

If you have simply lowered your car for looks and don't care about the handling, then don't bother reading any further.

So, on to the more important stuff, I simply can not believe the reluctance of people to get their suspension geometry checked and aligned. No car, where you change the height, is exempt from the most basic of alignment correction. If you have lowered the car by any visible amount then I can guarantee the car will need alignment. Cars also go out of alignment from there normal operation, just because it was aligned last year doesn't mean it still is in alignment this year.

As for no adjustment standard, there is toe adjustment on the front and toe adjustment on the rear as well as a small amount of camber adjustment on the rear.

If you are changing your spring and shock units to improve the handling then you are waisting your time if you don't also get the alignment corrected. Skylines, like all cars, are designed to operate within a certain height range, by lowering it you have almost certainly moved it outside its operating range. That means the standard adjusters, particulary rear camber, most likely won't have sufficient range to correct the alignment. When the car is within its designed height parameters it doesn't need front cmaber adjustment, that's why it doesn't have them standard. But you have most likely lowered the front suspension outside that range and so it will need camber correction.

The fact is I can change the whole handling balance of a car, without touching the sprigs or shocks, just by changing the alignment settings. Don't believe me, well neither did Jason until I aligned his Gallant VR4, refer HIP issue 105. So the person who told you that your car will need realignment after lowering was correct and maybe you should listen to him more often.

Cheers

Gary

[Birds]

Thanks for the advice Gary. It's because this person has been wrong on lots of topics in the past that I doubted what they were saying. I wasn't ignoring their advice, just questioning it because he didn't make an effort to explain exactly what he was saying - hence I posted on here. And I never listen to someone unquestionably; two minds in disagreeance reach a higher truth than two in agreeance. I should point out that I am not intending to lower my car car anymore than it is - it is already slightly lowered on GAB coilovers and I am satisfied with the ride height. Whether it was alligned to suit this at the time of installation I am unsure of; the previous owner did it. I say "installing coilovers" because that's what they are...I don't think I implied anywhere that Skylines don't come with factory coilovers.

The car is a daily driver so I'm not overly concerned with handling. The reasons I'm installing Teins are because the current GAB setup is rooted, the spring rates are way too firm for the street, I want to retain the freedom of adjustable height, and the front springs have next to no play in them or room for adjustment - someone told me these springs look like they were meant for an R32. However I am a perfectionist when it comes to installation so if there is a procedure that needs to be done for things to be 100% then I'm more than open to having it done.

To clarify, will it be fine to install the coilovers and get the suspension alligned a couple of days after installation? My suspension expert is about half an hour drive from me and is only free on certain days. How long does allignment usually take?

[2LV8ETR]

To clarify, will it be fine to install the coilovers and get the suspension alligned a couple of days after installation? My suspension expert is about half an hour drive from me and is only free on certain days. How long does allignment usually take?

Like I said, if you have any real doubts, get the alignment done, and a couple of days after installing them will be ok. Many cars run with negative camber on the road for handling reasons so it isn't a major drama.

We run a -2.5 camber on the track car, and -1.5 and -3 toe in on the drift car just for handling reasons.

The 4 wheel alignment should only take between 30-60 minutes depending on how good your man and his equipment is. In saying that though, if you've strayed too far from the original height, he won't be able to adjust the camber to suit, unless you either purchase adjustable arms or concentric bushes. He may need to lower, or heighten the car to bring it within range.

Take an eyebrow measurement before you install the new coilovers, and adjust them to the original height after a bit of a drive to allow them to settle before seeing him.

[Beer Baron]

you run toe in on a drift car? hmmm.

[2LV8ETR]

you run toe in on a drift car? hmmm.

Whoops, a typo.

-3 toe out on the rear as it reduces rear stability.

[nisskid]

I say "installing coilovers" because that's what they are...I don't think I implied anywhere that Skylines don't come with factory coilovers

well, in fairness, these days we just assume ur talking about an aftermarket adjustable coilover package when people say "coilovers", but technically saying you're going to put in "coilovers" means nothing. you could be putting in the stock coilovers for all we know. a bit of clarification in future is handy.

[nisskid]

Whoops, a typo.

-3 toe out on the rear as it reduces rear stability.

:S

last time i checked u wanted stability. personally i and many others run a bit/lot of toe out at the front to increase turn in, then run close to nuetral on the rear to keep the rear still stable.

having toe out at the rear, and toe in at the front it pretty much the opposite of what most drifters, hell, most drivers want.

[2LV8ETR]

last time i checked u wanted stability. personally i and many others run a bit/lot of toe out at the front to increase turn in, then run close to nuetral on the rear to keep the rear still stable.

having toe out at the rear, and toe in at the front it pretty much the opposite of what most drifters, hell, most drivers want.

Each to their own. The driver is an ex speedway super sedan champ and likes the back end loose. It may not be what you would call a sound setup, but he's been going sideways for over 12 years and it's what he wants. It works for him and as he's the one behind the wheel, that's what he gets. Because you use a different setup, it doesn't mean his is wrong.

Many drift drivers dial in rear toe out for the same reason. Research it for yourself and you'll see.

Look here: http://www.drift.hr/forum/showthread.php?t=150

Here under the title Suspension: http://driftjapan.com/blog/drift-glossary/

Here under the title Toe In Toe Out: http://autoracing.suite101.com/article.cfm...up_for_drifting

Like I said, each to his own.

[nisskid]

Each to their own. The driver is an ex speedway super sedan champ and likes the back end loose. It may not be what you would call a sound setup, but he's been going sideways for over 12 years and it's what he wants. It works for him and as he's the one behind the wheel, that's what he gets. Because you use a different setup, it doesn't mean his is wrong.

Many drift drivers dial in rear toe out for the same reason. Research it for yourself and you'll see.

Look here: http://www.drift.hr/forum/showthread.php?t=150

Here under the title Suspension: http://driftjapan.com/blog/drift-glossary/

Here under the title Toe In Toe Out: http://autoracing.suite101.com/article.cfm...up_for_drifting

Like I said, each to his own.

lol at thinking speedway = drift

i dont see one of those links saying toe in at the front is reccomended. my main point was about front toe, and ill stand by it. yes, a bit of rear toe out can help initiate drift, but instability is a negative side-effect of toe out, its not something you aim for.

if ur going for more turn in ur almost always better off dealing with the front toe first.

[2LV8ETR]

lol at thinking speedway = drift

i dont see one of those links saying toe in at the front is reccomended. my main point was about front toe, and ill stand by it. yes, a bit of rear toe out can help initiate drift, but instability is a negative side-effect of toe out, its not something you aim for.

if ur going for more turn in ur almost always better off dealing with the front toe first.

"We run a -2.5 camber on the track car, and -1.5 and -3 toe in on the drift car just for handling reasons."

The typo was in the -3 toe in.

The other figure referred to CAMBER.

So for you to understand it reads "We run a -2.5 camber on the track car, and -1.5 camber and -3 rear toe out on the drift car just for handling reasons.

In the links I had showed the reference to toe out in a drift car which was the argument all along.

[Birds]

well, in fairness, these days we just assume ur talking about an aftermarket adjustable coilover package when people say "coilovers", but technically saying you're going to put in "coilovers" means nothing. you could be putting in the stock coilovers for all we know. a bit of clarification in future is handy.

Perhaps don't assume then? It might be different if it was a car that didn't come with factory coilovers, but it's not. To me it's like saying "installing a turbocharger" when putting in a GT28RS - you're not negating the fact the car already has a turbo. Besides, I said Tein SS coilovers in the body of the post, so if you didn't conclude from this what is going into the car then you probably won't be able to help me in the first place.

[nisskid]

"We run a -2.5 camber on the track car, and -1.5 and -3 toe in on the drift car just for handling reasons."

The typo was in the -3 toe in.

The other figure referred to CAMBER.

So for you to understand it reads "We run a -2.5 camber on the track car, and -1.5 camber and -3 rear toe out on the drift car just for handling reasons.

In the links I had showed the reference to toe out in a drift car which was the argument all along.

u only corrected the rear toe in, not the front. so afaik so still meant u were running front toe in. dont know why ur getting arced up at me for your typo.

i was just adding my 2c as to setup like you did, i dont see the big issue with that.

[nisskid]

Perhaps don't assume then? It might be different if it was a car that didn't come with factory coilovers, but it's not. To me it's like saying "installing a turbocharger" when putting in a GT28RS - you're not negating the fact the car already has a turbo. Besides, I said Tein SS coilovers in the body of the post, so if you didn't conclude from this what is going into the car then you probably won't be able to help me in the first place.

dude, what are u even going on about? u asked US a question which u didnt give enough information, assuming was the only way we could give u a half decent answer.