Gtr Haters

[Gibbo_R35]

What I actually find amusing is that everyone talks.... well the ZR1 is a second quicker here, the GTR is a second quicker there blah blah blah... If this were a professional drivers forum and we were talking poofteenths of a second because we are that good then hell I agree with all of this I will show you mine if you show me yours, however fact of the matter is this: None of us are good enough to get 10/10th's from any of the cars we talk about, hence what one race driver did on the Nurburgring compared to what we could do in no way shape of form should ever be mentioned in the same sentence.

I do not know the number of track days that I have attended in everything from an RX-8 through to the GTR. In the RX-8 I regularly overtook Porsches, Ferrarris etc....is it because the car is fast....nope, is it because it handles better...nope...it is often because of the driver.

Sleeping in a Garage does not make you a Car....and so too...driving a performance car does not make you a race driver capable of pulling a 7:26 on Nurburgring.

You should be comparing driver ability when cars get as close as this in the performance stakes....because when all is said and done most of us will never drive all the cars we claim are inferior, hence most of this is a mute point.

If you want to put your money where your mouth is then get your a$$ to the track and show us how you drive....don't sit there.

(This rant is not aimed at anyone...it is just a general rant)

[cosmic starz]

What I actually find amusing is that everyone talks.... well the ZR1 is a second quicker here, the GTR is a second quicker there blah blah blah... If this were a professional drivers forum and we were talking poofteenths of a second because we are that good then hell I agree with all of this I will show you mine if you show me yours, however fact of the matter is this: None of us are good enough to get 10/10th's from any of the cars we talk about, hence what one race driver did on the Nurburgring compared to what we could do in no way shape of form should ever be mentioned in the same sentence.

I do not know the number of track days that I have attended in everything from an RX-8 through to the GTR. In the RX-8 I regularly overtook Porsches, Ferrarris etc....is it because the car is fast....nope, is it because it handles better...nope...it is often because of the driver.

Sleeping in a Garage does not make you a Car....and so too...driving a performance car does not make you a race driver capable of pulling a 7:26 on Nurburgring.

You should be comparing driver ability when cars get as close as this in the performance stakes....because when all is said and done most of us will never drive all the cars we claim are inferior, hence most of this is a mute point.

If you want to put your money where your mouth is then get your a$$ to the track and show us how you drive....don't sit there.

(This rant is not aimed at anyone...it is just a general rant)

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very well said and diplomatic too, but will they listen?

[Birds]

I'll listen and I'll disagree. We use the best drivers available as comparisons because they are the best measure we have of a cars capabilities...which is what is being argued. We want to know which car is better when driven by a professional. So what? Why does it have to be a comparison of driver skill set between the people arguing the debate? What would that tell us about the car if we got a 12 year old who has never driven a car in his/her life to take on the late and great Peter Brock? Absolutely nothing. I think alot of what you have said is a moot point, given it is obvious to most that two Joe Blows driving these cars would come up with some infinitely variable and incomparable results. That's why, when we compare the cars, we use the laptimes of professional drivers because even though they are still not perfect, it's the best measure we have of a car's capability. It removes as much variability as possible from the equation.

Max, please stop talking about the ZR1 and ACR power/weight advantages without first acknowledging those of the R35.

Roy, I too would be interested to see these cars 1 on 1 in an endurance race.

[Max_ST-R]

I agree about driver skill being a huge factor amongst amatuer racers, however remember that manufacturer published lap times on tracks like the Nurburgring nordshleife be they from Nissan, Porsche, Dodge or Chevrolet etc are performed by professional racing drivers. Toshio Suzuki is ex-f1, Walter Rohl (Porsche) ex-Rally and Jan Magnussen who performed the 7.43min in the Z06 a few years back is also ex-f1. At this pointy end I believe, skill levels are more closely matched than amongst amatuer drivers, so it stands to reason that the machinery plays a far greater role when you have three drivers who are ex-f1 or ex-Rally, compared to a successful business man vs a lotto winner vs a heart surgeon on a Sunday club race day.

For example I doubt that Jensen Button is the best F1 driver on the grid...but becuase the skill levels of f1 drivers are so closely matched, a good car makes ALL the difference, just look his points tally.....

[Gibbo_R35]

We use the best drivers available as comparisons because they are the best measure we have of a cars capabilities...which is what is being argued.

We want to know which car is better when driven by a professional.

I think alot of what you have said is a moot point, given it is obvious to most that two Joe Blows driving these cars would come up with some infinitely variable and incomparable results.

That's why, when we compare the cars, we use the laptimes of professional drivers because even though they are still not perfect, it's the best measure we have of a car's capability. It removes as much variability as possible from the equation.

You know what your points would be valid except even professional drivers ability differs dramatically. A very basic example is a simple test done by Top Gear Australia, the race they do in the "Star in a Reasonably Priced Car". To date they have had Mark Skaife, Greg Murphy and James Courtney. Their times are below in an idential car:

1:22.47 - Mark Skaife 1:23.53 - James Courtney

1:23.60 - Greg Murphy

We look at a relatively short track with 3 "professional drivers" and we have over 1 second difference. Therefore by your logic Mark's car must be the best. The fact is it has nothing to do with the car at this point.

With a 1.13 second difference on a 1:23 laptime we are looking at an variability of 1.58%. On Nurburgring this equates to a variablilty of 7 seconds based on "professional driver".

The "science" of this comparison is pointless, especially when we are talking 10th's of a second difference between cars now.

My point is: when quoting Nurburgring Laptimes on the top 5 cars to prove which car is better, you might as well quote which is better to reverse park, because when you get to these degrees of variability they are not statistically significant. Hence my call to get off your a$$ and onto the track.

The capability of these cars is now only up to the individual driver, not the cars potential anymore. The potential is proven.

[Munro]

Bravo.... Lets all go to the track & rub door handles. Well said Gibbo!

I am going out to the track next week. Cant bloody wait. You have 100 times more fun then on the street & cant get done by the cops.

Hope there are lots of corvettes, porsches, & ferraris to play with........ pity it will only be Mallala & not Phillip Island!

[Sydneykid]

You know what your points would be valid except even professional drivers ability differs dramatically. A very basic example is a simple test done by Top Gear Australia, the race they do in the "Star in a Reasonably Priced Car". To date they have had Mark Skaife, Greg Murphy and James Courtney. Their times are below in an idential car:

1:22.47 - Mark Skaife 1:23.53 - James Courtney

1:23.60 - Greg Murphy

We look at a relatively short track with 3 "professional drivers" and we have over 1 second difference. Therefore by your logic Mark's car must be the best. The fact is it has nothing to do with the car at this point.

With a 1.13 second difference on a 1:23 laptime we are looking at an variability of 1.58%. On Nurburgring this equates to a variablilty of 7 seconds based on "professional driver".

The "science" of this comparison is pointless, especially when we are talking 10th's of a second difference between cars now.

My point is: when quoting Nurburgring Laptimes on the top 5 cars to prove which car is better, you might as well quote which is better to reverse park, because when you get to these degrees of variability they are not statistically significant. Hence my call to get off your a$$ and onto the track.

The capability of these cars is now only up to the individual driver, not the cars potential anymore. The potential is proven.

Nice example but the explanation can be as simple as 2 words, different conditions. My recollection is that MK's day was sunny with cool air temps, ideal for a fast time. I would also add that MK spent almost a whole day getting to that time, the other two had other engagements and couldn't spend the same amount of time practising in an unfamiliar car on an unfamiliar track.

Obviously none of these factors apply to the 'Ring times, if the weather isn't perfect they come back tomorrow and the drivers are most certainly familiar with the car and track.

You make a good point, one that I happen to agree with, but the example is not a good one.

Cheers

Gary

[Gibbo_R35]

Nice example but the explanation can be as simple as 2 words, different conditions. My recollection is that MK's day was sunny with cool air temps, ideal for a fast time. I would also add that MK spent almost a whole day getting to that time, the other two had other engagements and couldn't spend the same amount of time practising in an unfamiliar car on an unfamiliar track.

Obviously none of these factors apply to the 'Ring times, if the weather isn't perfect they come back tomorrow and the drivers are most certainly familiar with the car and track.

You make a good point, one that I happen to agree with, but the example is not a good one.

Cheers

Gary

Hence you have confirmed my point, the cars are identical....it is not the cars performance that has contributed to the time differences. It is drivers, conditions etc etc.....but not the cars.

So to with any comparitive test that is done, at a certain point it is no longer the car.....it becomes external factors. Especially when cars are this close in performance.

This is why Porsche could only pull a 7:50 and Suzuki could do a 7:26...Suzuki knows the car perfectly. Put him in a Porsche GT3 and he may only do a 7:55...who knows, the point is you get a "company Expert" in each which know their respective cars perfectly and they will provide the best bench mark....however that does not mean that it will translate into anywhere near that in the real world with us driving.

Cheers

[Birds]

Hence you have confirmed my point, the cars are identical....it is not the cars performance that has contributed to the time differences. It is drivers, conditions etc etc.....but not the cars.

So to with any comparitive test that is done, at a certain point it is no longer the car.....it becomes external factors. Especially when cars are this close in performance.

This is why Porsche could only pull a 7:50 and Suzuki could do a 7:26...Suzuki knows the car perfectly. Put him in a Porsche GT3 and he may only do a 7:55...who knows, the point is you get a "company Expert" in each which know their respective cars perfectly and they will provide the best bench mark....however that does not mean that it will translate into anywhere near that in the real world with us driving.

Cheers

Great, then we can all agree that the time difference between these cars is negligible because all that seperates their laptimes are driver skill sets and extraneous variables, which could yield different results each time. Still, we prefer to do the comparison with professional drivers because this minimises the variability in the equation, even if it can't completely rid us of it. If we didn't use professional drivers then we couldn't possibly arrive at the conclusion that the ZR1 and the R35 are so close to each other in terms of performance. Therefore, my only argument from this point onwards is that winning is winning, and as far as Nurburgring times are concerned the ACR still has it. So even though the R35 is probably capable of matching or even topping the ACR time, it needs to be done in order for us to officially claim so. And all I've been trying to maintain in this thread is the following statement taken from an earlier post: "What many R35 fans don't like to hear is that a country famous for building straight line heroes that are hopeless around the bends, can produce vehicles every bit on performance par with Japan's finest".

As for getting off my ass and onto the track, if I could do it in a ZR1 instead of a pink S15 I would

[boostedliner]

pm sent

[Gibbo_R35]

Great, then we can all agree that the time difference between these cars is negligible because all that seperates their laptimes are driver skill sets and extraneous variables, which could yield different results each time. Still, we prefer to do the comparison with professional drivers because this minimises the variability in the equation, even if it can't completely rid us of it. If we didn't use professional drivers then we couldn't possibly arrive at the conclusion that the ZR1 and the R35 are so close to each other in terms of performance. Therefore, my only argument from this point onwards is that winning is winning, and as far as Nurburgring times are concerned the ACR still has it. So even though the R35 is probably capable of matching or even topping the ACR time, it needs to be done in order for us to officially claim so. And all I've been trying to maintain in this thread is the following statement taken from an earlier post: "What many R35 fans don't like to hear is that a country famous for building straight line heroes that are hopeless around the bends, can produce vehicles every bit on performance par with Japan's finest".

As for getting off my ass and onto the track, if I could do it in a ZR1 instead of a pink S15 I would

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