Do You Wish The R35 Came In Manual?

[handbrake]

This is one of those - "If you havent driven it then you wouldnt know" threads. Birds might think he has a point, and in his mind he probably does...in the real world though its different. Welcome to the future.

As one of the US guys said, I am going to send our R35 GTR back in time to kill the first car to have a gearstick, and Sarah Connor, all at the same time. Thread Terminated.....but not before I say "Handbrake I have your midpipe waiting for you, and it sounds the biz"

haha, will try and get it past the treasury dept. Wild thing phoned me today from the sunshine coast. sounds like he couldnt be happier with it.

[Snowman]

yep - a mid-pipe is the only "must have" for the R35 IMO.

There might be some other "should haves" but the mid-pipe is a must. It gives the car the sound it should have without upsetting anyone or anything.

[scathing]

Why are you firing of at me for?

Because you're the one saying something I don't understand. I'm trying to figure out why the gearbox seems to be the magnet for "I don't like how it removes feel" despite the presence of a lot of other parts, hence why I'm asking.

So I am a "Honda fanboy" now, am I?

Not quite. I said you're acting like one.

The following questions are directed to you as well as Birds (in the same vein). It's at the heart of what I'm trying to work out by questioning you guys.

so favourable about working a clutch? I'll tell you. It makes the few times that I do manage perfect shifts in a drag race that much more special.

OK. I understand that "fun" and "fast" are two different things (I do daily drive a MX-5). However, that's not the point. My line of questioning is to work out why is only the gearbox the part you don't like about the R35?

Isn't a drag race more special when you drive a 2WD car? Isn't it a greater expression of skill and feedback when you can get that perfect balance of clutch and throttle to get it off the line with just enough wheelspin to keep the torque up? Rather than just banging the engine off the cutout and sidestepping the clutch off the line?

Isn't the feedback from the steering wheel, uncorrupted by torque and the unsprung weight of driveshafts, far better for enjoyment and maintaining control of a car? Instead of a computer deciding to shuffle torque to the front of the car, changing its balance and attitude, mid-corner?

No-one bitches that the GT-Rs are active AWD (aside from KPGC10 tragics) but its just as much of a "cancelling out driving input and control" device as the gearbox.

Same with the active suspension, which helps shift the weight around to maximise traction. Isn't it easier when you're the one controlling the weight shift with how fast you lift off the throttle, and how fast you get back on it, so you can keep perfect traction?

At the same time, turbochargers blunt initial throttle response (unless you run anti-lag) and provide an uneven power delivery compared to a normally aspirated car. Even on the more responsive turbo setups on modern cars, let alone older engine designs like the RB, there's a moment of delay between when you actuate the throttle after you've come off it for a while and when the turbochargers manage to re-pressurise the intake.

This removes a noticable amount of that tactile feedback from the throttle (but it does make up for it by making a shitload of power, making it a "technically superior" solution) which takes away from the experience.

It's also a far greater feeling of achievement when you beat someone driving a FI car in an NA one, if "fun" is your driving concern about what you want from a car.

Yet the engine and its induction choice doesn't come under the same barrage either.

And I don't agree with this don't-knock-it-until-you've-tried-it logic.

Neither do I, as a general rule. However, I'm also of the camp that I should approach things with an open mind, and consider informed opinions.

There are guys who were mentally pre-disposed to disliking it (including various journos, and Snowman as he posted on here) who pushed past their prejudices about a semi-auto gearbox and found themselves pleasantly surprised. Those opinions hold far more weight than people ignorant of the topic commenting on something far different than they're used to.

To clarify my position, I'm glad the R35 comes with all the advanced tech that it has. For me, the GT-R is meant to be a fast car (hence all the other "skill robbing" wizardry in the drivetrain). The only thing I'd remove is weight. If we're talking wishes then I wish it came with a Lotus Elise as well.

That way I've got a car that's the last word in speed-for-cost, and another car that is amazingly fun. The latter would shit over any modern Skyline when it comes to the amount of skill needed to drive quickly, and the rewards it gives its driver in return.

[(OO)SKYLINE(OO)]

Because you're the one saying something I don't understand. I'm trying to figure out why the gearbox seems to be the magnet for "I don't like how it removes feel" despite the presence of a lot of other parts, hence why I'm asking.

Not quite. I said you're acting like one.

The following questions are directed to you as well as Birds (in the same vein). It's at the heart of what I'm trying to work out by questioning you guys.

OK. I understand that "fun" and "fast" are two different things (I do daily drive a MX-5). However, that's not the point. My line of questioning is to work out why is only the gearbox the part you don't like about the R35?

Isn't a drag race more special when you drive a 2WD car? Isn't it a greater expression of skill and feedback when you can get that perfect balance of clutch and throttle to get it off the line with just enough wheelspin to keep the torque up? Rather than just banging the engine off the cutout and sidestepping the clutch off the line?

Isn't the feedback from the steering wheel, uncorrupted by torque and the unsprung weight of driveshafts, far better for enjoyment and maintaining control of a car? Instead of a computer deciding to shuffle torque to the front of the car, changing its balance and attitude, mid-corner?

No-one bitches that the GT-Rs are active AWD (aside from KPGC10 tragics) but its just as much of a "cancelling out driving input and control" device as the gearbox.

Same with the active suspension, which helps shift the weight around to maximise traction. Isn't it easier when you're the one controlling the weight shift with how fast you lift off the throttle, and how fast you get back on it, so you can keep perfect traction?

At the same time, turbochargers blunt initial throttle response (unless you run anti-lag) and provide an uneven power delivery compared to a normally aspirated car. Even on the more responsive turbo setups on modern cars, let alone older engine designs like the RB, there's a moment of delay between when you actuate the throttle after you've come off it for a while and when the turbochargers manage to re-pressurise the intake.

This removes a noticable amount of that tactile feedback from the throttle (but it does make up for it by making a shitload of power, making it a "technically superior" solution) which takes away from the experience.

It's also a far greater feeling of achievement when you beat someone driving a FI car in an NA one, if "fun" is your driving concern about what you want from a car.

Yet the engine and its induction choice doesn't come under the same barrage either.

Neither do I, as a general rule. However, I'm also of the camp that I should approach things with an open mind, and consider informed opinions.

There are guys who were mentally pre-disposed to disliking it (including various journos, and Snowman as he posted on here) who pushed past their prejudices about a semi-auto gearbox and found themselves pleasantly surprised. Those opinions hold far more weight than people ignorant of the topic commenting on something far different than they're used to.

To clarify my position, I'm glad the R35 comes with all the advanced tech that it has. For me, the GT-R is meant to be a fast car (hence all the other "skill robbing" wizardry in the drivetrain). The only thing I'd remove is weight. If we're talking wishes then I wish it came with a Lotus Elise as well.

That way I've got a car that's the last word in speed-for-cost, and another car that is amazingly fun. The latter would shit over any modern Skyline when it comes to the amount of skill needed to drive quickly, and the rewards it gives its driver in return.

Ok I see your point.

Not that I "don't" like the gearbox in the R35 GTR, as said in my earlier post, It is a very superior gearbox.

So yes I do like the gearbox.

I should have said, I "Prefer" a Manual stick shift and clutch pedal.

Growing up driving manual with the stick shift and clutch pedal is pretty much second nature for me + I enjoy it.

"Just because you like it does not mean I have to like it..." - What I meant to say here was, I like having the clutch pedal and stick shift and you prefer not to have it... Doesn't mean I have to like what your like...

Hope I did not confuse you...

Anyway, just a small misunderstanding.

Again, don't get me wrong, the R35 GTR gearbox is superior, I do like it, I just preferred it being a "Manual" as the title of the thread stated.

Cool!

[GTR-N1]

Terry, you can always left foot brake.

And shouldn't all your limbs be atrophied by now, since your AWD does all your driving for you anyway? Sklled drivers drive RWD.

Haha - I can see you in one of Ferdinand's cars

[Birds]

This is one of those - "If you havent driven it then you wouldnt know" threads. Birds might think he has a point, and in his mind he probably does...in the real world though its different. Welcome to the future.

As one of the US guys said, I am going to send our R35 GTR back in time to kill the first car to have a gearstick, and Sarah Connor, all at the same time. Thread Terminated.....but not before I say "Handbrake I have your midpipe waiting for you, and it sounds the biz"

How about, welcome to the real world, where life is somewhat subjective (that's right, believe it or not we don't all have the same opinion on things) and people probably know themselves better than you know them? Who are you to judge whether I would prefer this car in manual configuration to the GR6 or not? I acknowledged earlier in this thread that the GR6 was a superior setup for speed...and that sporting a conventional manual setup, the R35 would be nowhere near as fast...but for me speed doesn't necessitate fun. If my intention is to be out having fun I would honestly rather drive my GTS-T than an SMG M3. Have done both and my opinion didn't sway from my expectations. I love changing gears, I love working a clutch, I love perfecting the coordination to a tee, and I love feeling that extra feedback from a car. If I wanted to win a race I'd choose the M3.

[Birds]

Scathing, I never said the gearbox is the only thing I don't like about the R35. There's alot I don't like about it, and yes a good deal of that is the "overuse" of technology. You have me downpat with your questions, actually. I'm an n/a V8, RWD, floorshift and clutch fan. I feel more at home driving an HQ than I do a Subaru Liberty. I curse everytime I G-tech my Skyline for the 0-100 and I lose .3 seconds because of a bad gear change or a failed rev match. I also curse the fine line between getting bogged down with lag and churning the rear tyres. But all those things make the few times where I perfect everything, that much better. Gotta have the bad with the good. The point of my analogy before (i.e. paying someone to drive the car for you), is that you have to draw the line somewhere at technology taking over and detracting from the driving experience until we're left with just a Daytona USA driving simulator...for me that is at the gearbox. It's going to be different for everyone, but eventually somewhere along the way I think you too would draw yourself a line. Question is, where? I can deal with the lag of my turbocharger, as much as it pisses me off in daily traffic and moving off the line without dumping the clutch, but I make this exception because most of the car still represents what I want in a car and my idea of fun. I consider myself open minded to the point where I don't doubt I would enjoy the R35 immensely (though I don't even like to assume whether I would like it or not)...but this would be a "just beat some loaded guy in a Porsche" or "just crapped myself" type of fun, not the same type of fun akin to perfecting a skill set with many variables and the feeling of accomplishment that comes with it.

[Munro]

R35 Paddle shift is the poo... end of thread.

[Gibbo_R35]

^^AMEN TO THAT BROTHER^^

[Beer Baron]

do I? no way. I've owned and driven many GTRs from 32-35 inclusive, from standard models of each, up to heavily modified ones and whilst I don't wish for a paddle shift in my 32 I certainly don't wish for a manaul box in my 35 either. just like the regular H pattern in the 32 suits the car so does the DSG in the 35. it's part of what the car is. one of the best parts of what the car is actually. without it the car would be much, much slower. you would look and feel like a numpty as all the DSG equipped R35s blew past you on any kind of circuit or strip.

a manual h pattern box in the 35 would be a massive step in the wrong direction. I've been in the passenger seat of the 35 for when many guys had their first drive of one. all of them were amazed at how good the gearbox is and how fast and direct the shifts are. when matt coleman drove my old one he was so impressed with the power, and the DSG that he wanted to know how to buy one straight away. the DSG makes the car.

[Mr_GaZZa]

+1 for a manual box!! 6-7 speed please

[Beer Baron]

drive an R35 as it is first, then try and say they with a straight face....

I honestly cannot imagine anyone who had driven an R35 properly would wish a manual box on it. like I said I love the box on my R32 and many other cars I've owned but I wouldn't want it anywhere near my R35...

[Godcla]

Fairly obvious to all in the know.....as it makes this car what it is........but more to the point ...R35 owners love to use it in Manual flipping and blipping..

PS: I don't even know why this discussion has gone on so long as it's in every test/review that this automated Clutch Manual Box is

Fantastic.........

[illusiVe]

Id buy this car because its a cool/fast car, if it came in manual over flappy paddle, id buy it.. its just who I am.

If i wanted to buy a fun car, id buy a thrasher.. i love no abs, no traction control, old school manual, no airbags, rwd its that direct contact with the road you feel when you do a fast run in this little 'shitter' which puts such a smile on your face.

But if i wanted to push the limits, get the fastest time, go hardcore and push my adrenalin to the limit, i'd be driving a R35 flappy paddle.

Edited June 22, 2009 by illusiVe

[Martin Donnon]

How about, welcome to the real world......

Spent some time in the real world today actually

Spot the car with the gearstick

[Roy]

Just for accuracy. The C4 ZR1 was a quad cam NA jobbie that was released back in 89 with 385hp, a few years later it jumped to 405hp. The current C6 is supercharged pushrod

And, I like the confusion and business of a traditional manual, and during a big braking zone rowing back through the gears. I am sure the R35 is a weapon of a thng....but there is no convincing some people...which is a good thing that we all dont like the same things. Hell i would take a tweaked Exige over an R35 , lol sadly i cant see myself ever owning the cars i actually like, unless Holden release the Camaro and i am so getting my white trash hick ass into one of those

[Martin Donnon]

Just for accuracy. The C4 ZR1 was a quad cam NA jobbie that was released back in 89 with 385hp, a few years later it jumped to 405hp. The current C6 is supercharged pushrod

Sorry to be a prick Roy....

C4 ZR1 = Quad Cam NA with Lotus designed heads

C6 ZR1 = LS9 Supercharged 6.2 LS3 derived engine

C6 Z06 = LS7 7.0 litre atmo

All junk but

[Roy]

Sorry to be a prick Roy....

C4 ZR1 = Quad Cam NA with Lotus designed heads

C6 ZR1 = LS9 Supercharged 6.2 LS3 derived engine

C6 Z06 = LS7 7.0 litre atmo

All junk but

LOL, like i said, i was referring to the ZR1 so when i said C6 But disagree on all being junk....i have always loved Vettes and the current ZR1 is bliss

[Godcla]

Spent some time in the real world today actually

Spot the car with the gearstick

Ha..Ha......would be a good pic to post on Rennteam Forum....

[LedZepLen]

I wouldn't buy a GTR unless it came with a manual. A 30k r34 with 30k put into would destroy anything. I heard months back that Nissan might release a special edition gtr called an (evo?) with a clutched manual, i dont know how true this is or how much they'd try and rape u for it but i'd pay less then 90 for it. I'm still waiting for a magazine feature with someone who has made the perfect GTR retrofitting it with a madly built way overbored rb30 and getrag 6sp.

But when i saw a black edition GTR in the shop before going onto the showroom i only wished i was ready to buy because seeing and sitting in that car makes you think "f*k the manual i just wanna drive this car". I'm glad i didn't trade in my r32 and finance that GTR because nissan will smarten up some day soon and that'll be "the legend" just like the r34 still is.