R35gtr Tyres - Nitrogen Filling

[leong]

Does anyone know where (in Melbourne) nitrogen filling is available other than at the dealers ?

What equipment is available for nitrogen generation for tyre filling application ?

[handbrake]

most quality tyre places in Brisbane offer it at a cost so assume the same in Melbourne

Filling tyres with Nitrogen is a load of BS anyway with any benefits probably only measurable in labs, not in the real world of joe average.

I would give it a miss, there are more benefits from ensuring you are running correct pressures than concerning yourself with the elemental makeup of the air in your tyre!

[Godcla]

Does anyone know where (in Melbourne) nitrogen filling is available other than at the dealers ?

What equipment is available for nitrogen generation for tyre filling application ?

Most big Tyre Dealerships ........when I asked anyway.

[N1GTR]

My local Bob Jane does it, maybe try calling your local one

[Beer Baron]

honestly. save your money and use good old plain compressed air. I've tried both in an R35 and oilbeefhooked if I can tell the difference.

edit: also don't worry about topping up with plain air etc. that's fine. it just dilutes the nitrogen a little and has no ill effects.

[Sammy-qld]

honestly. save your money and use good old plain compressed air. I've tried both in an R35 and oilbeefhooked if I can tell the difference.

edit: also don't worry about topping up with plain air etc. that's fine. it just dilutes the nitrogen a little and has no ill effects.

Yeah but hey its like cool to tell people you got NITRO in your tires dude. like thats one of the reason's we bought this car. (kidding)

Also first day I bought my car in Melbourne had the tire sensor go off, went to a local Bob Jane they topped all 4 tires up to normal pressure for $40 total. All Bob Jane's now have Nitrogen on hand I believe.

[nisskid]

tbh, the ability to easily play around and test different pressures outweighs any potential benfits of nitrogen. that is unless u carry around tanks of nitrogen to track days lol

[williamsf1]

ok .....

The facts :-

Nitrogen is more stable - so is less likely to rise in pressure as temprature increases.... it also does not continue to "grow" once at hot operating temprature.

Nitrogen does not pass through the surface of the tyre, after all rubber is just a membrane.... if you don't believe me, ask yourself why a balloon goes down after a few days???

So less loss of pressure over time (i.e. session to session or day to day)

It is also "dry" meaning it doesn't have any water vapour in the tyre, causing once again unstable growth in pressure....

It is used in race cars for a reason, and not just because its cool to tell your mates

This car is very tyre sensitive, so I am sure that having the best pressure in from cold to hot works well for tyre life also....

want to know what ferrari used to do to their tyres????

[Beer Baron]

tbh, the ability to easily play around and test different pressures outweighs any potential benfits of nitrogen. that is unless u carry around tanks of nitrogen to track days lol

we used to. was easier than carrying the compressor. so we just take big nitrogen bottle. use it to run airjacks and inflate the tyres. works well. but honestly it makes little difference.

the theory is lovely. in practice there is not enough difference really to justify the price difference between $0 per fill for air and $40 for nitrogen....

[nisskid]

i know a lot of serious people do, but most GTR owners are probably people who just drive out to the track and drive, and dont wanna be dealing with a big bottle of nitrogen.

saying that, if you're looking to milk every advantage out, and u have the $$ for the nitrogen bottle, and can be bothered with it all, then do it.

it just sounds like this isnt really an option for the thread starter.

[Beer Baron]

agreed.

[djr81]

ok .....

The facts :-

Nitrogen is more stable - so is less likely to rise in pressure as temprature increases.... it also does not continue to "grow" once at hot operating temprature.

Nitrogen does not pass through the surface of the tyre, after all rubber is just a membrane.... if you don't believe me, ask yourself why a balloon goes down after a few days???

So less loss of pressure over time (i.e. session to session or day to day)

It is also "dry" meaning it doesn't have any water vapour in the tyre, causing once again unstable growth in pressure....

It is used in race cars for a reason, and not just because its cool to tell your mates

This car is very tyre sensitive, so I am sure that having the best pressure in from cold to hot works well for tyre life also....

want to know what ferrari used to do to their tyres????

Some other facts:

All gases will increase in pressure when the temperature increases. But in the absence of an increase in temperature no gas will continue to "grow" as you put it. In terms of their respective constant volume specific heats - that for nitrogen is 744 Newton metres per kilgram Kelvin & air is 720 Call it 3% differential.

By your logic if nitrogen does not pass through the tyre & other gases do then all I need do to get nitrogen filled tyres is put some normal air in them & wait.

Dry is good. But you don't need nitrogen to get dry air.

The difference between dry air & nitrogen is minimal. Air is approx 80% nitrogen anyway. If you are filling your tyres from bottled gas it is easy to use N2 as air. But who in the real world has anything other than oxy, acetylene & maybe argon sitting around in bottles?

Getting the pressure correct is fundamentally more important than anything. Figuring out what pressure to run at is the hard bit, not what gas to put in the tyres.

Edited June 24, 2009 by djr81

[GT-Ricer]

most quality tyre places in Brisbane offer it at a cost so assume the same in Melbourne

Filling tyres with Nitrogen is a load of BS anyway with any benefits probably only measurable in labs, not in the real world of joe average.

I would give it a miss, there are more benefits from ensuring you are running correct pressures than concerning yourself with the elemental makeup of the air in your tyre!

+1

What happens with the atmospheric pressure air that is still in a deflated tyre before they put in N2? Same goes for Bob Jane selling you N2 tyre inflation.

Unless you suck it all out under vacuum and make your tyre shrivel like a prune, you will always have a tyre full of air before you pump in any more nitrogen.

Nobody bleeds the tyres to flush out air and replace it all with nitrogen. You would need two valves for that.

This means that topping up with air afterwards is not going to significantly make it any worse than it is in the first place in terms of air vs. nitrogen mixture.

Oh yes, fresh air is almost 80% nitrogen and so are our "special Nissan tyres" after they had been inflated with N2 outside a vacuum chamber.

In other words, it is all marketing BS.

Edited June 24, 2009 by GT-Ricer

[williamsf1]

Some other facts:

All gases will increase in pressure when the temperature increases. But in the absence of an increase in temperature no gas will continue to "grow" as you put it. In terms of their respective constant volume specific heats - that for nitrogen is 744 Newton metres per kilgram Kelvin & air is 720 Call it 3% differential.

By your logic if nitrogen does not pass through the tyre & other gases do then all I need do to get nitrogen filled tyres is put some normal air in them & wait.

Dry is good. But you don't need nitrogen to get dry air.

The difference between dry air & nitrogen is minimal. Air is approx 80% nitrogen anyway. If you are filling your tyres from bottled gas it is easy to use N2 as air. But who in the real world has anything other than oxy, acetylene & maybe argon sitting around in bottles?

Getting the pressure correct is fundamentally more important than anything. Figuring out what pressure to run at is the hard bit, not what gas to put in the tyres.

yeah not quite so easy... what you will find is that remaining in your now partially flat tyre is a lot of water! and oh when you inflate it again with wet air yep, you guessed it.... your back to square 1!

dry air yes is ok... but if your going to the effort of running dry air, why not get N2! its bloody cheap....

If any of you don't believe N2 is the way to go for optimum performance your kidding yourselves.... ask anyone who has REAL racing experience!

oh and for interest...

This is how ferrari managed to control tyre issues recently :-

One of the most talked-about elements of the McLaren spy case was a special gas used by Ferrari in its tyres – in particular, an incriminating email from McLaren test driver Pedro De La Rosa to lead driver Fernando Alonso that revealed that the gas reduced the internal temperature and blistering.

In the email De La Rosa is quoted as saying ‘we’ll have to try it, it’s easy!’ Racing tyres are typically filled with air or, in more professional series like Formula 1, Nitrogen. But in an email from Alonso to De La Rosa he states it is ‘very important’ that McLaren test the gas that Ferrari uses in its tyres as ‘they have something different from the rest.’ He follows this up with ‘not only this year. There is something else and this may be the key. Let’s hope we can test it during this test, and that we can make it a priority!’

It has been widely reported that the gas used by Ferrari was carbon dioxide and, whilst this is partially correct, it’s not the whole story.

In fact, the gas used by Ferrari is a hydrofluorocarbon (HFC)-based mixture designed specifically for use in racecar tyres, though not dissimilar in composition to gasses used in refrigerators, which are comprised entirely of hydrogen, carbon and fluorine.

A team headed by Andrea Seghezzi of Monza, Italy, in association with Gruppo Sapio developed the gas and subjected it to extensive track testing.

It was discovered that the HFCs were able to effectively conduct the heat generated during the rotation of the tyre to the wheel rim at a more or less constant pressure. The wheel rim then acts as a radiator, exchanging the heat with the outside air, maintaining a lower internal temperature and preventing it from overheating. This is particularly effective on aluminium or magnesium wheels.

Racing rubber inflated with air also suffers from the effects of some internal chemical interactions, which damage the structure of the tyre, and can result in a sudden drop in performance. Due to the high capacity for heat transfer, tyres inflated with the new gas mixture achieve excellent longevity, since the temperature of the tyre is kept low and the pressure is constant.

After extensive tyre testing the best blend of HFCs was found to be 52 per cent Tetrafluoroethane, 44 per cent Pentafluoroethane and four per cent Trifluoroethane. This mixture, known as HFC R404 A, was found to be most effective in a racing tyre when it was inflated with a blend of 50 per cent HFC R404 A and 50 per cent CO2.

The use of this new gas mix for tyres has implications far beyond Formula 1, of course, as using it allows teams to run softer compounds for longer, or to work the tyres harder.

It could also be that there will be worthwhile benefits in races run over longer distances, like NASCAR or Le Mans.

The court case continued without revealing the precise details of HFC R404 A, but it transpires that, despite the encouragement of the drivers, a Bridgestone engineer doubted whether the gas mixture would be effective if used on the McLaren MP4/22. However, it is thought that the McLaren drivers were not fully aware of the gas mix, rather they only knew of the CO2 element.

[djr81]

yeah not quite so easy... what you will find is that remaining in your now partially flat tyre is a lot of water! and oh when you inflate it again with wet air yep, you guessed it.... your back to square 1!

dry air yes is ok... but if your going to the effort of running dry air, why not get N2! its bloody cheap....

If any of you don't believe N2 is the way to go for optimum performance your kidding yourselves.... ask anyone who has REAL racing experience!

oh and for interest...

This is how ferrari managed to control tyre issues recently :-

One of the most talked-about elements of the McLaren spy case was a special gas used by Ferrari in its tyres – in particular, an incriminating email from McLaren test driver Pedro De La Rosa to lead driver Fernando Alonso that revealed that the gas reduced the internal temperature and blistering.

In the email De La Rosa is quoted as saying ‘we’ll have to try it, it’s easy!’ Racing tyres are typically filled with air or, in more professional series like Formula 1, Nitrogen. But in an email from Alonso to De La Rosa he states it is ‘very important’ that McLaren test the gas that Ferrari uses in its tyres as ‘they have something different from the rest.’ He follows this up with ‘not only this year. There is something else and this may be the key. Let’s hope we can test it during this test, and that we can make it a priority!’

It has been widely reported that the gas used by Ferrari was carbon dioxide and, whilst this is partially correct, it’s not the whole story.

In fact, the gas used by Ferrari is a hydrofluorocarbon (HFC)-based mixture designed specifically for use in racecar tyres, though not dissimilar in composition to gasses used in refrigerators, which are comprised entirely of hydrogen, carbon and fluorine.

A team headed by Andrea Seghezzi of Monza, Italy, in association with Gruppo Sapio developed the gas and subjected it to extensive track testing.

It was discovered that the HFCs were able to effectively conduct the heat generated during the rotation of the tyre to the wheel rim at a more or less constant pressure. The wheel rim then acts as a radiator, exchanging the heat with the outside air, maintaining a lower internal temperature and preventing it from overheating. This is particularly effective on aluminium or magnesium wheels.

Racing rubber inflated with air also suffers from the effects of some internal chemical interactions, which damage the structure of the tyre, and can result in a sudden drop in performance. Due to the high capacity for heat transfer, tyres inflated with the new gas mixture achieve excellent longevity, since the temperature of the tyre is kept low and the pressure is constant.

After extensive tyre testing the best blend of HFCs was found to be 52 per cent Tetrafluoroethane, 44 per cent Pentafluoroethane and four per cent Trifluoroethane. This mixture, known as HFC R404 A, was found to be most effective in a racing tyre when it was inflated with a blend of 50 per cent HFC R404 A and 50 per cent CO2.

The use of this new gas mix for tyres has implications far beyond Formula 1, of course, as using it allows teams to run softer compounds for longer, or to work the tyres harder.

It could also be that there will be worthwhile benefits in races run over longer distances, like NASCAR or Le Mans.

The court case continued without revealing the precise details of HFC R404 A, but it transpires that, despite the encouragement of the drivers, a Bridgestone engineer doubted whether the gas mixture would be effective if used on the McLaren MP4/22. However, it is thought that the McLaren drivers were not fully aware of the gas mix, rather they only knew of the CO2 element.

Well firstly, thanks for the appraisal of my experience.

Yes I well understand what people are aiming for when experimenting with different gases in their tyres. Simply put you are after a gas that shows little change in pressure for a given heat input. There is next to no difference between air & nitrogen in this regard. Which was my point.

As for the gas damaging the inside of the tyre - no race tyre I have ever used has died of old age. They either

A. Get punctured/flat spotted/damaged in the side walls from saw toothed edged kerbs.

B. Get heat cycled too many times or over heated & lose their grip, ie go off.

C. Get worn out.

The life of a race tyre is short & ugly. No one I have ever met cared less about the insides being subject to chemical attack.

In any case when you go to a track you change the tyre pressures regularly. So unless you bring your own nitrogen you are wasting your time.

[williamsf1]

yep you are 100% correct with the last part....

I'm not saying you don't have race experience, but professional teams use N2 for a reason, and its not to just spend money....

we have found that tyres that run even one session exposed to water (on the race track) are changing the tyre's characteristics and knocking maybe 1 second a lap off optimum times once the track dries!!!!

this same effect was happening with air (even dry) as it wasn't as dry as N2....

when you are running control tyres, and have to maintain a tyre bank, its rather important to look after the rubber you have....

so back to road cars!

if running N2 you will have the tyre closer to optimum pressure for the life of the tyre, and that will aid in tyre life/wear/grip all the good things!!!

[Burgerman]

i put liquid nitrogen into my tyres. much better than air as it gives the feeling you are driving on ice

[GT-Ricer]

....Nobody bleeds the tyres to flush out air and replace it all with nitrogen. You would need two valves...

I stand corrected: here is a new Enkei wheel with two valves!

[Sydneykid]

I have been using nitrogen in race car tyres for many years, this is what I have found;

1. 100% nitrogen expands less than air, not a lot, maybe 1 psi in 35 psi. What that means is we can run 1 psi higher pressure for the start of the race and know the tyres won’t go over pressure by the end of the race. The best chances for overtaking occurs off the grid so it’s a big advantage to have tyres closer to their optimum operating pressure on lap 1.

2. Humidity makes a lot of difference, the higher the humidity the more the air expands as the tyres warm up. This is exacerbated by compressors without filters and those that aren’t emptied of water regularly. Obviously bottled nitrogen has none of those issues, it’s consistent no matter what the weather and the compressor. This can make another 1 to 1.5 psi difference.

3. The tyres we use have very narrow pressure requirements, 1 or 2 psi away from that and their performance and life are compromised. So its important to keep them in their optimum pressure range at all times.

4. We always carry bottled air for the power tools, so it’s no big deal to make one of them nitrogen. It can be used for tyres or power tools and doesn’t cost much more than air.

5. The tyres are fitted up using compressor air, we then immediately pop the valves and let the air out. Replacing it with bottled nitrogen to 65 psi or so, then we pop the valves again and refill the tyres to the desired presures. All top ups from then on are done with bottled nitrogen.

In summary, running nitrogen is only worthwhile if you are on the competitive edge, know your tyres requirements and have the capacity to monitor and optimize their pressures.

Cheers

Gary

[Beer Baron]

I stand corrected: here is a new Enkei wheel with two valves!

they have been for years. I have a set of NT03 Ms that were made for their 02 Nurburgring R34 24 hr races and they have 2 valves. and they've been making those long before that even. it's also used so you can fit gauge on one and air bottle/compressor to the other. and yes you can use it to try and purge 02.