Take A Pick

[Munro]

Ah, just took off as Nissan intended! OK, maybe the road was a bit damp & there was a bit of sideways action.

Just wrong time/wrong place I guess. Once I got talking to him he realised I was easy to deal with but they call it in before they even get out of the car so was too late to just give me a warning. Will have to be careful from now on.

[Starionturbo]

Very Nice Garage you have there Martin!! I would have something similar if I could!

Personally while talking on dream garages. In a realistic sense mine wouldnt be too over the top because Id spend all my money on Motorsport - like international and National Rallies But I would have a couple in my collection!!

Maserati MC12 Competizione

Aston V12 Vantage

AMG E63 black

Range Rover Vogue.

The entire range of Japanese performance - stock,classic and modified

[Max_ST-R]

My main problem with the HSV W427 is the HSV GTS, the HSV Clubsport R8 and the FPV F6. Is it really $80,000 better than all these cars? For example my mate paid $58,400 ON THE ROAD for a new 6.2 l HSV R8 (inc leather!) last year. I know the W427 is on another level, but not THAT much higher up the food chain. If I wanted an insane 4 door sedan I personally would get a new Mercedes C63 AMG or a late model E55 AMG or E63 AMG, just my opinion. That said both cars (GT-R, W427- in red) looks great side by side, but that R8 is too good value to ignore......

As for those lamenting the HSV HRT 427 coupe, the car on display was a CONCEPT CAR just like the COUPE 60, there is NO WAY the production versions of either would have been anywhere near as radical or as brutal as the concepts at the show!!. The HRT 427 concept car was actually sold for $950,000! in 2007 to a QLD'er by the name of 'Chooka'. I don't care what anyone says, it's a bloody 2 door VT Commodore with a hot engine which quite frankly could be put together for 1/10th the price. I'd imagine An off the shelf 7.0l LS7 can be shoehorned into a VT Monaro and the interior stripped out to suit...and for under $100,000, for $950,000 I could have bought a Ferrari F40 LM (race car) which was on sale 3 or 4 years back in Melbourne...and still had change!

[Birds]

Your main problem with the W427 is that you have some sort of complex that sends you off hating on anything GM/Ford...

What are these crazy MILLIONNAIRES doing with their money...they should have listened to you Max. Perhaps you could offer them some financial advice at the same time. Anyone who buys a Holden for more than what you think it is worth must be a little wrong in their head! Maybe they drove the W427 before they judged it? There are a ton of European cars out there with factory turbo/supercharger upgrades tacking 80k onto the price for the privelege...are they really 80k better? Why bother when you could do a blower conversion yourself for $10k?

So your logic goes, we can't enjoy or ponder how nice a road going version of a concept car would have been just because it's a concept. Well what else do we have to go by, besides the concept itself? Perhaps you would like to list for us exactly what in those concepts wouldn't have made it to the road going versions...then we can enjoy the car for what it was really going to be, instead of just the concept. But I'm actually curious to know if you know exactly what would have been changed about the cars to be more suitably classified a production vehicle.

A car is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If someone bought a one off concept car for $950,000, then it is worth every cent of $950,000 and nothing you or anyone can say will change that.

[rehab2010]

Spending anything more than 80K for anything made in Oz is simple insanity.

[LSX-438]

My main problem with the HSV W427 is the HSV GTS, the HSV Clubsport R8 and the FPV F6. Is it really $80,000 better than all these cars? For example my mate paid $58,400 ON THE ROAD for a new 6.2 l HSV R8 (inc leather!) last year. I know the W427 is on another level, but not THAT much higher up the food chain. If I wanted an insane 4 door sedan I personally would get a new Mercedes C63 AMG or a late model E55 AMG or E63 AMG, just my opinion. That said both cars (GT-R, W427- in red) looks great side by side, but that R8 is too good value to ignore......

As for those lamenting the HSV HRT 427 coupe, the car on display was a CONCEPT CAR just like the COUPE 60, there is NO WAY the production versions of either would have been anywhere near as radical or as brutal as the concepts at the show!!. The HRT 427 concept car was actually sold for $950,000! in 2007 to a QLD'er by the name of 'Chooka'. I don't care what anyone says, it's a bloody 2 door VT Commodore with a hot engine which quite frankly could be put together for 1/10th the price. I'd imagine An off the shelf 7.0l LS7 can be shoehorned into a VT Monaro and the interior stripped out to suit...and for under $100,000, for $950,000 I could have bought a Ferrari F40 LM (race car) which was on sale 3 or 4 years back in Melbourne...and still had change!

Interesting argument but what a buzz kill dude..

What do you think has kept GTR/R35 enthusiasts keen for all these past years - through the concept iterations?

And i am told that particular HSV sold for $790k, fwiw.

[Max_ST-R]

Your main problem with the W427 is that you have some sort of complex that sends you off hating on anything GM/Ford...

What are these crazy MILLIONNAIRES doing with their money...they should have listened to you Max. Perhaps you could offer them some financial advice at the same time. Anyone who buys a Holden for more than what you think it is worth must be a little wrong in their head! Maybe they drove the W427 before they judged it? There are a ton of European cars out there with factory turbo/supercharger upgrades tacking 80k onto the price for the privelege...are they really 80k better? Why bother when you could do a blower conversion yourself for $10k?

So your logic goes, we can't enjoy or ponder how nice a road going version of a concept car would have been just because it's a concept. Well what else do we have to go by, besides the concept itself? Perhaps you would like to list for us exactly what in those concepts wouldn't have made it to the road going versions...then we can enjoy the car for what it was really going to be, instead of just the concept. But I'm actually curious to know if you know exactly what would have been changed about the cars to be more suitably classified a production vehicle.

A car is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If someone bought a one off concept car for $950,000, then it is worth every cent of $950,000 and nothing you or anyone can say will change that.

Birds. I actually like my mate's HSV Clubsoprt R8. It's black and I think it is spectacular value for money. He got a $17K discount and I actually convinced my mates wife that my mate should buy that car over a 5-6 year old Merc! so there goes YOUR theory!!.

I also told him to look at the FPV F6, another car I really like (even a G6 E Turbo), but he prefers the look of the HSV R8 over the F6, plus he likes the V8. If he had told me he was going to spend $170K on the road for that W427, I would have told him his crazy (and he agrees with me and he has owned 4 HSV's!). Nothing wrong with the W427, contrare Im sure it's great to drive...but so is an R8, so is GTS so is an F6, fanatstic infact. For those who don't know, the W427 doesn't have a higher equipment level over the GTS which is $70,000 difference. Even the supercharged Walkinshaw Clubsport which offers 440 odd KW is a $100,000 proposition.

As for the HRT 427 and Coupe, you are saying they are NOT concepts and that the production version will look exactly like you saw on the motor show stand! c'mon! As far as Im concerned until I see a car with plates on it, concepts mean nothing to me. The only company the puts their concepts into production are BMW and that's because the E92 M3 and M5 concepts were'nt really concepts to begin with! If you look up the web, Citroen have this absolutely spectaular looking concept car at the moment(supercar looking thing). It looks great...but it's a concept, it probably wont go into production and if it does it will be tamed down...Im just stating the obvious there, its not an opinion...and I don't understand why people get so worked up over them.

As for the millionaires, good luck to them! IF they want to blow $1 million bucks on a 7.0 VT Monaro then so be it...I just wouldn't do it, so is it a crime to state as such!! ..and yes you are right, are car is worth what someone will pay for it and for all the nouveau riche building and mining industry people who earned a fortune during the Howard years and who are now seeing things slow right down.. I just wonder if the ridiculous values of their recently aqcuired muscle cars have held...I bet you they haven't!.

At the end of the day I can appreciate a hot Ford or Holden, but every car has a price limit, why is it a crime to be pragmatic?. In my eyes a $60K Clubsport is great value, but a $170K W427 is not...I think you'll find MANY people who share that opinion.

As for your suggestion that an E500 buyer should just Supercharge their car to make an E55 AMG, that's just plain ridiculous. In Australia prestige car buyers simply dont do this type of conversion, but aftermarket supercharged Commodores are commonplace and there is quite a big industry behind it.....and NO I actually wouldn't buy a NEW Merc E63 or E55 AMG either! $240K, pfft!...see what you can buy 2-3 years old with some LOW kms and save $100K, that is what I'm about, a 2005 E55 AMG with 350kw/720 NM (at 1,800rpm) with low kms for less than the price of a new E500 or M3 or W427 sounds like heaven. $60K for a new R8 Clubsport sounds like a bargain to me too and I'd have one at that price. Actually see what my mates R8 is worth next year when he changes it...THAT might be worth buying!

To conclude I like many a car ...at the RIGHT price!!!!

[Max_ST-R]

Interesting argument but what a buzz kill dude..

What do you think has kept GTR/R35 enthusiasts keen for all these past years - through the concept iterations?

And i am told that particular HSV sold for $790k, fwiw.

LSX, the HSV HRT 427 Concept definately sold for $950,000, I have the newspaper article!

But if you want to talk concepts, Lamborghini Estoque (awsome 4 door sedan)...but as far as Im concerned all it is is a tease as was the Lamborghini Miura concept. The Estoque does look production ready, the Holden Coupe 60 however sat ridiclously low, with unbelievable huge wheels and bits and pieces sticking out everywhere that you can just see would never make it into production. All I am saying a production version will probably be like the VT Monaro, fairly sleek but no where near as aggressive as the concept. The Nissan R35 concept from 3-4 years back at least looked nearly identical to the road car..but the 2000 concept looked too radical and far fetched and didn't really interest me.

[LSX-438]

LSX, the HSV HRT 427 Concept definately sold for $950,000, I have the newspaper article!

And i know the guy who sold it! (my ex boss)

dont believe everything you read in newspapers.

Edited July 11, 2009 by LSX-438

[LSX-438]

As for the HRT 427 and Coupe, you are saying they are NOT concepts and that the production version will look exactly like you saw on the motor show stand! c'mon! As far as Im concerned until I see a car with plates on it, concepts mean nothing to me.

Remember the monaro concept? almost 100% the same as the production version. Granted the 427 Coupe was a lot more "out there" (i had a deposit on one at one stage) but most of those were not destined for the road anyway. It turned out to be too expensive to make as we all know. The Coupe 60 - yes i can see that would have been watered down a lot - as a road car - for sure. Don't be such a kill joy dude! Concepts are great. Perhaps a bit of fantasy but that's cool. FWIW if thy made the Coupe 60, it wouldnt have taken much to get one close to the concept, what was so radical on it anyway?

Edited July 11, 2009 by LSX-438

[GT-R32]

Yep the R35's BIG...... SHE GOT A BIIIIIGGG ASS!! But I love big asses so thats ok :-)

Bubble butt FTW (my GF is Latin LOL)

I have to say, I'm car enthusiast first, nissan enthusiast second. I love my nissans and have liked everyone single one I've owned, from a POS R31 5 speed 4 door that I bought for about 500bux, right through to the first 32 GTR I bought (and loved and still own) through 33GTRs, 34GTRs and even yes 35 GTR. I've also enjoyed my JDM 06 liberty GT (2l twin turbo), I love DC2 integra type Rs, and I'm about to import a 2004 JDM Honda Civic Type R for my gf and I as a daily. I love my RX7 and my silvia too. and I love my holdens and fords as well. hell I even love some euro junk. E30 M3 is up there with my favourite cars, love the old 840 BMWs, love old alfa. I just love cars. sure I have a particular soft spot for nissan product and R32 GTR skylines in particular but that doesn't stop me enjoying just about every car i've ever stepped into. I cannot stand people who seem to think that the particular car they own is the best car ever made and even worse is the ONLY car worth owning. that's not true. I say own and drive as many cars as you can, cause there's lots more good ones than bad ones out there.

Well said mate. I've had/have 4 different Jap brand of performance, modified and classic car, 4 60s/70s yank muscle cars and a modified '02 Monaro for a bit of a mix of various styles and era totalling 30 different cars now and counting! I love them all for different reasons, you just keep some closer for sentimental reasons. Life is about experience and enjoyment and it comes in various forms, if you're a car enthusiast it applies to this also. To narrow your mind is only to miss out.

*Group hug*

[Birds]

Birds. I actually like my mate's HSV Clubsoprt R8. It's black and I think it is spectacular value for money. He got a $17K discount and I actually convinced my mates wife that my mate should buy that car over a 5-6 year old Merc! so there goes YOUR theory!!.

I also told him to look at the FPV F6, another car I really like (even a G6 E Turbo), but he prefers the look of the HSV R8 over the F6, plus he likes the V8. If he had told me he was going to spend $170K on the road for that W427, I would have told him his crazy (and he agrees with me and he has owned 4 HSV's!). Nothing wrong with the W427, contrare Im sure it's great to drive...but so is an R8, so is GTS so is an F6, fanatstic infact. For those who don't know, the W427 doesn't have a higher equipment level over the GTS which is $70,000 difference. Even the supercharged Walkinshaw Clubsport which offers 440 odd KW is a $100,000 proposition.

As for the HRT 427 and Coupe, you are saying they are NOT concepts and that the production version will look exactly like you saw on the motor show stand! c'mon! As far as Im concerned until I see a car with plates on it, concepts mean nothing to me. The only company the puts their concepts into production are BMW and that's because the E92 M3 and M5 concepts were'nt really concepts to begin with! If you look up the web, Citroen have this absolutely spectaular looking concept car at the moment(supercar looking thing). It looks great...but it's a concept, it probably wont go into production and if it does it will be tamed down...Im just stating the obvious there, its not an opinion...and I don't understand why people get so worked up over them.

As for the millionaires, good luck to them! IF they want to blow $1 million bucks on a 7.0 VT Monaro then so be it...I just wouldn't do it, so is it a crime to state as such!! ..and yes you are right, are car is worth what someone will pay for it and for all the nouveau riche building and mining industry people who earned a fortune during the Howard years and who are now seeing things slow right down.. I just wonder if the ridiculous values of their recently aqcuired muscle cars have held...I bet you they haven't!.

At the end of the day I can appreciate a hot Ford or Holden, but every car has a price limit, why is it a crime to be pragmatic?. In my eyes a $60K Clubsport is great value, but a $170K W427 is not...I think you'll find MANY people who share that opinion.

As for your suggestion that an E500 buyer should just Supercharge their car to make an E55 AMG, that's just plain ridiculous. In Australia prestige car buyers simply dont do this type of conversion, but aftermarket supercharged Commodores are commonplace and there is quite a big industry behind it.....and NO I actually wouldn't buy a NEW Merc E63 or E55 AMG either! $240K, pfft!...see what you can buy 2-3 years old with some LOW kms and save $100K, that is what I'm about, a 2005 E55 AMG with 350kw/720 NM (at 1,800rpm) with low kms for less than the price of a new E500 or M3 or W427 sounds like heaven. $60K for a new R8 Clubsport sounds like a bargain to me too and I'd have one at that price. Actually see what my mates R8 is worth next year when he changes it...THAT might be worth buying!

To conclude I like many a car ...at the RIGHT price!!!!

No my theory still stands. Until I see something from the GM/Ford stable sitting in your garage, all I have to go by is your word that you're unbiased...which doesn't suffice, given everytime a GM vehicle is compared to something else on these forums you bring your "overpriced / cheap quality" perspective into it, downplaying the abilities of those two manufacturers to produce cars of relative worth or on par with the rest of the world. Recommending cars is one thing, but until you fork out the dollars yourself I won't believe it. The W427 is a limited edition...all it ever needed above the GTS to sell was a badge to say so, some aesthetic differences and a limited production run. Instead it comes with a 7 litre V8 and everything designed to run that with a factory warranty, not an aftermarket conversion rendering your car worthless in the eyes of the manufacturer. And the W427...they sold. You're on the side that argues with entire marketing teams who successfully target their paying customers, AKA the losing side of a moot argument.

I didn't say those cars weren't concepts, because they are. I asked you to list for me what parts of those concepts wouldn't have made it to the production versions. I'm still waiting. And if wheels and ride height (because people never change these variables after buying a vehicle, do they?) are all you can come up with, then your criticism of us enjoying concept cars for what they could have been is also somewhat moot.

Prestige owners do actually do this...there is definitely a niche for engine modification in prestige vehicles; you don't have to look far to find a supercharger kit for a Z4. And with or without kits available, you don't have to look far to find a workshop willing to do a custom conversion for you. But regardless, the larger industry devoted towards aftermarket Commodore performance is somewhat relative, given there is...I don't know...about 20 times more Commodores in Australia than BMWs? As for those who buy the faster factory versions of the Europeans...why do they bother? The same reasons a fan of the GTS - a prestige priced vehicle - might opt for the W427 instead.

Given you're all the buzz about second hand cars and vehicle depreciation, you fit nicely into a demographic that marketing managers, manufacturers and new car dealers don't have to listen to / give a shit about. Lucky for them. I'll have my graphics designer whip you up a "Holden Are Overrated, Concept Cars Are Not Real" placard that you can take with you to a motorshow the next time you feel the need to buzzkill the fun of concept cars.

[Max_ST-R]

Birds, I don't know why you get so defensive about GMH, or defensive full stop, you seem to be taking this personally!!! (????) but to completely shatter your theory, my FIRST car I bought in 1996 (at 23 years of age) was a BRAND NEW VS Series II Holden Commodore Executive!!. It was Rubens Mica in colour and my wife and i owned it for 11 years. It had window tint, gold plated 'Lion badges' front and rear and it I kept it immaculate. It had 136,000kms when I sold it on December 27, 2007.

Considering it was always garaged and serviced every 5,000 kms I thought I had a disproportionate number of quality and reliability issues. Fortunately, parts were cheap and more often than not my dad and I could replace them ourselves. It was finances that stopped me from changing it earlier..plus getting married, building a house and having children takes priority.

when I worked at a Toyota dealer for 3 years (after 3 years at a Ford dealer) this REALLY opened my eyes to Japanese levels of quality and reliability and I actually regretted not buying a Mazda or Nissan or Toyota or Subaru at the time. By comparison my A33 Maxima's have been a revelation compare to my Commodore, just chalk and cheese. For example, i have never had a clean garage floor before! refinement and quality are on a different level too.

As for your Coupe 60,I think that whole front bumper/spoiler assembly would be HAVE to toned downed considerably. Any car with 22 " wheels which sat that low would drive to it's own detriment if modified as such. I actually think a VE coupe would look quite smart, but I don't think a production version will pack anywhere near the drama of the concept or indeed an R35 GT-R. and I think that's a fair comment.

As for modified European, yes, I know there are kits out there, but I reckon you could count on one hand the number of after market supercharged Z4 in Oz. It's nothing compare to the indusrty behind modified Folden/Ford or Jap car scene. Also you might want to go the the Mercedes site and you will see an E63 AMG or previous E55 AMG not only adds a super charger or engne displacement over an E500 but quite a number of equipment differentiation (unlike the W427 to the GTS)

As for Motorshow buzz kill I have worked at more than 20 of them about 13 in Melbourne and 9 of them in Sydney, 6 as a sales assistant the rest in my current role. I have attended 18 industry/media days so I guess I have become a bit blase about concept cars and the like. Like I said, when I see a Commodore Coupe production model, I will really take some interest. I was at the unveiling of the W427 and the Coupe 60. I thought the W427 looked horrible in that Walkinshaw silver(with red interior!) and the coupe 60 looked too 'concept', I was actually quite disappointed Holden didn't have a more production ready VE Commodore Coupe.

[Max_ST-R]

And i know the guy who sold it! (my ex boss)

dont believe everything you read in newspapers.

Oh ok, strange though, but why did the selling dealer quote a specific selling price to the media? It made news becuase that $950K price tag (supposedly) set a record for a price paid for an Australian made vehicle. I guess $790K may be a record too, maybe there is more to it.

[Max_ST-R]

Spending anything more than 80K for anything made in Oz is simple insanity.

Hey rehab2010, I'm with you...and lucky you, you missed out copping a spray from 'Birds'.... unlike me!!

Edited July 12, 2009 by Max_ST-R

[Max_ST-R]

Remember the monaro concept? almost 100% the same as the production version. Granted the 427 Coupe was a lot more "out there" (i had a deposit on one at one stage) but most of those were not destined for the road anyway. It turned out to be too expensive to make as we all know. The Coupe 60 - yes i can see that would have been watered down a lot - as a road car - for sure. Don't be such a kill joy dude! Concepts are great. Perhaps a bit of fantasy but that's cool. FWIW if thy made the Coupe 60, it wouldnt have taken much to get one close to the concept, what was so radical on it anyway?

LSX, I certainly remember the Holden Coupe concept in 2000 and the Monaro production car unveiling in Sydney. And you know why this car generated enormous interest? becuase it didn't look like some over the top concept car (like the VE Coupe 60), It looked very much a production car and this got people in a frenzy (and rightly so!) Whilst the Coupe 60 makes a good wall poster, I bet you a production car ready VE Coupe would have really made tongues wag, but what would I know? I've only been part of the scene for 15 years.

[GT-R32]

There's bugger all business case for a Coupe 60, anyway. The group is hardly doing well, including Holden.

[Gibbo_R35]

What is being missed here is that concepts are designed to raise the profile of the manufacturer. They are to show case the ability of the design teams and show the potential innovation of the brand.

The Coupe 60 got so much publicity because it showed the potential of the Holden brand, it opened speculation that it may be built.

BMW released the GINA concept car with the fabric panelling, this was to showcase innovation.

Concept cars are a rareity, they are almost never released for sale, if a production 1971 351 GTHO fetches $750k, who is to say that a one off concept is not worth inexcess of $1m. Value is proportionate to scarcity.

Would I pay $170k for the W427, no I wouldn't, but I did pay that for a Datsun, some people would call that just as crazy.

[Gts-t]

So max when do you get your R35, because honestly nothing a maxima owner says means anything....

[Max_ST-R]

Gibbo, totally agree bout concept cars raising profile, look at the Holden Effigy, one of the best concepts ever. I still reckon a production version of the VE Coupe would have caused a much greater stir.

As for your 'Datsun', yes, kind of like saying you bought a sports car from a tractor manufacturer (Lamborghini)...but lets face it the GT-R is an extroadinary car regardless of who built it. It is a bespoke supercar that is built and engineered to the very highest standards with performance potential way, way about anything in it's price range. The W427 is still a modified Commodore, it is far less bespoke than the GT-R and there is no way it had anywhere near the R & D that the GT-R had, worse still, a near identical looking Clubsport or GTS offers 90%, 95% of the performance potential?. Limited edition, yeah I guess so. If you are talking about the 20 limited edition Lamborghini Reventons with completely outrageous body styling, that has a bit more meaning. The W427 was limited to a production of 427 cars but they capped it off at 200. No suprise there, there are just very few people who can justify the price of that car. As for value being proportionate to scarcity there are a few exceptions to the rule. prime example being the Ferrari F40. Was to be limited to a couple of hundred units, Ferrari ended up building 1100 of them. Ironically it had one of the largest productions outputs in Ferrari history (at the time), but it was such a spectacular car in every respect it retains high values.

Edited July 13, 2009 by Max_ST-R