Take A Pick

[Max_ST-R]

this thread's title should be changed to "battle of the keyboard warriors"

Should have been changed to LS1 forums by the way some carried on...

Edited July 13, 2009 by Max_ST-R

[Birds]

Some have carried on? You say that like you haven't written a reply (and in some cases two) to every post I've written? That's very hypocritical Max. Now you're just being petty.

You keep comparing the body work of the Coupe 60 to the current VE as if it needs to share anything in common with it but the VE chassis, ala the CV Monaro with the VT chassis. The CV8Z is vastly different from the VT Commodore as is the Coupe 60 to the VE. As is the 350Z to the V35. Reality is, if it were in Holdens interests to do so...the Coupe 60 could have been put into production with very little changed about it. The pillarless windows, boot lip, aggressive body kit, forward stance and VE coupe body shape were key attractions for this car - none of these need exemption from a production version.

You keep putting words in my mouth. I think/say none of what you claim I do. Where was I when the R35 V Spec was being argued? No idea, I only signed up to these forums about 3 months ago. Had I seen it I probably would have stood up for the people who thought it was worth paying the money for it. Fair enough that the W427 or Coupe 60 aren't your cups of tea...but you pay out on others who do like them? Making them out to be ignorant? You were shown exactly what this feels like when Beer Baron questioned your Maxima ownership, something I haven't done yet because I'm open minded enough to recognise we all have a different idea of what we want in a car and we all spend different amounts on different cars. I don't go around questioning other people's choices in vehicles. As I've said before, I'll make the same argument for the R35 on a Holden forum. For the same people who would rather supercharge their Clubsports and produce a straight line match for the R35 for half the price, questioning why people would even bother with the R35. I would still argue against them, in favour of R35 owners for their purchase, maintaining that they have sound minds contrary to the "opinions" of the narrow minded.

As for biases, I have none when it comes to talking about cars. I love my Holdens and I've already admitted that. Do you see a Holden in my garage? No. But I'm not critiquing Holden. If I was it might be a different case. I have nothing to gain by maintaining positive light on this manufacturer in my arguments. No post-purchase dissonance here either. I love all cars and I've already said that too. So no, the "atleast I can admit it" line doesn't apply where you used it. The difference between me and you is I don't let my love/hate for a manufacturer cloud my judgement when I'm talking cars. You saw an R35 in the garage with the W427 and it must have struck something of a nerve with you that someone should want to buy the car, let alone an R35 owner. The only relevance owning a 90's Holden for 11 years poses in this case, is showing to me that your arguments and negative opinions are formed on nothing but a one off negative experience with the manufacturer. Again my point is, you will not buy another Holden because you had a bad experience, you're sour grapes over it and consequently this comes out when GM and quality/price/value/performance are mentioned in the same sentence.

Done with this one. I'd rather talk to a telemarketer.

Edited July 13, 2009 by Birds

[Max_ST-R]

Birds, there will never be agreement here, but I never made specific condescending or derogatory comments to the W427/GT-R owner on this forum. I never said anyone was ignorant, I just put forth my viewpoint of what I would BUY and what I would do, somehow it hit a raw nerve with you. This is what I'm talking about and If i'm not mistaken you fired the first shot in this discussion. Does this sound familiar "My problem with the W427, is the HSV GTS and the FPV F6" A general viewpoint that brought on a personal onslaught from yourself

And saying someone would be 'crazy' to buy something is not exactly harsh or strong words. Part of light hearted Aussie colloquialism I would have thought.

As for what the Beer Baron said, that's fine, I'm very happy with my car, it's not everyone's choice, but I KNOW I made the right one for myself and my family, I don't need endorsement, regonition or approval from ANYONE, even if they are RICH and own a dozen cars, fortunately I don't suffer such insecurities.

As for your Coupe 60, I never mentioned the body shell or removal of B-pillar for a production version!. These are indeed the core ingredients to the car and for about the 5th or 6th time (?) I think a production version would look quite nice, better than the concept in fact which I feel looks over the top due to the additions I mentioned previously.

...anyway I have work to do.....

[Col-GTSX]

I came back to this topic to see where it has been in the last few days ive been busy...

And I find this... I have to say im disapointed...

All I can say to both of you (Birds and Max) is "Fit for purpose"...

Who cares about price, who cares about style, who cares about anything other than "Fit for purpose"...

That means different things to different people, no point in banging you head againt a brick wall as all peoples opinions are based on their defination of "Fit for purpose"...

If I had over $300k to spend on only 2 cars, Id probably buy what this guy has in his garage too... Except Id buy them both in white...

[Max_ST-R]

Col-GTSX, I wasn't directly comparing a GT-R to the W427!. Of course they are fit for purpose vehicles as you put it. One is a bespoke 2 door AWD supercar, one is a hot 4 door, 5 seater, sports sedan. I don't think anyone is arguing that, and as such each has a different role to play (Fit for their own purpose)

My comparisons lay with the W427 less expensive and extremely competent HSV siblings (as well as those offered by FPV). I am a member on other motoring forums and this has been a legitimate and often spoken about topic. I don't see the problem with discussing about these or other alternatives.

I don't recall slanging any personal insults at anyone, if I had done so by all means accuse me of wrong doing...

[fungoolie]

Im worried about opening my mouth here but here goes FWIW.........

The reason people spend $150K on the W427 or $790K on the "race" monaro is exactly the same reason people drop $20K on a vintage Grange, (wine that is, not HSV ). It's not because they want to drink it but in the (sometimes vain) hope that someone will pay more for it down the track. The W427 is not worth $80K more than a GTS if you were only talking about driving experience bang for bucks especially with such a wonderful selection of aftermarket gear out there for these vehicles. However if the $150K W427 sells for $250K in 5 years while my R-35, or E55 or M5 sells for $70K, guess what? The W427 was worth every penny! As as stated so eloquently earlier a car is "worth" what someone is prepared to pay for it.

The majority of these cars which people drop funny money on is purely financial speculation. And given the economic climate were in I think many may have done their dough.....

[Col-GTSX]

Yeah yeah I get it Max

Im just saying everyone has their own reasons for owning certain cars...

There is no right or wrong cars to own, as most people buy to suit their driving/lifestyle/work etc and so on...

I sum this up with "Fit for purpose"...

I mean why else would someone who like to surf/camp/smoke weed like VW combie vans...

[Col-GTSX]

and yes fungoolie your right...

the W427 owners cant loose money...

of course thats assuming they dont set it on fire...

PS> I assume you realise your username is an italian swear word yeah?

[Birds]

Im worried about opening my mouth here but here goes FWIW.........

The reason people spend $150K on the W427 or $790K on the "race" monaro is exactly the same reason people drop $20K on a vintage Grange, (wine that is, not HSV ). It's not because they want to drink it but in the (sometimes vain) hope that someone will pay more for it down the track. The W427 is not worth $80K more than a GTS if you were only talking about driving experience bang for bucks especially with such a wonderful selection of aftermarket gear out there for these vehicles. However if the $150K W427 sells for $250K in 5 years while my R-35, or E55 or M5 sells for $70K, guess what? The W427 was worth every penny! As as stated so eloquently earlier a car is "worth" what someone is prepared to pay for it.

The majority of these cars which people drop funny money on is purely financial speculation. And given the economic climate were in I think many may have done their dough.....

I think this is true for alot of buyers. Though we can't really say all W427 owners won't be driving their vehicles for the sake of vehicle appreciation. They may hold back on the daily driver mileage but a good deal of these cars will be driven on weekends. Nor can we guarantee the W427 will actually appreciate (though it is most likely, given the current worth of certain limited production 70's muscle cars)

Yeah yeah I get it Max

Im just saying everyone has their own reasons for owning certain cars...

There is no right or wrong cars to own, as most people buy to suit their driving/lifestyle/work etc and so on...

I sum this up with "Fit for purpose"...

I mean why else would someone who like to surf/camp/smoke weed like VW combie vans...

True!

[Max_ST-R]

I won't speculate on the resale value of the W427, I would expect it to be much better than other HSV's however if you were to go on past results of other HSV's, you'd have to say the outlook is not great. Even the VT2 HSV GTS 300kW in 2000, made in fairly limited numbers, with an RRP of $94K +ORC did not fare well. Actually the poor resale value of HSV's makes them a particularly good second hand purchase, that said the W427 is a bit more special for the HSV enthusiast.

I have read reports of people buying W427's and putting them in storage in the hope it will appreciate in value one day. Looking at mid-80's HDT Brock Commodores, values are solid but not sky high. I 've yet to see a Brock HDT break $100K mark (maybe someone has?). I thought that after PB passed on his cars would skyrocket, but it seems people aren't ready to pay crazy money for them yet. I just wonder IF the W427 becomes a classic, how long it will take for the market to recognize this and start paying big money.

It seems the really BIG money is only reserved for a select few of very early 70's GTHO Phase 3's, some Monaros and RT Chargers. It's been a while since a Phase3 has been sold or RT Charger or Monaro GTS. Be interesting to see what people are willing to pay for a Phase3 post credit crunch crises. It's been quite a while since the sale of a classic Aussie muscle car made the headlines.

[Max_ST-R]

Yeah yeah I get it Max

Im just saying everyone has their own reasons for owning certain cars...

There is no right or wrong cars to own, as most people buy to suit their driving/lifestyle/work etc and so on...

I sum this up with "Fit for purpose"...

I mean why else would someone who like to surf/camp/smoke weed like VW combie vans...

I agree totally, I would never ever argue or disagree with the above comments....

[Birds]

We can't really speculate on any of this (or the 90's HSV's for that matter) given it will probably take a couple of decades before anything can be considered a classic and consequently appreciates in value. The only cars that ever do see instant appreciation are very limited edition exotics. Hence I say we can't guarantee the W427 will appreciate, but given it holds more worth in terms of differentiation from the rest of the range than your typical limited edition, it is likely in my opinion.

There aren't many at all who foresaw that in 30 years time their GTHO/A9X/SLR5000/GTS would be worth 20-50 times what they originally paid for it. If I had that kind of foresight now with todays cars, I wouldn't be wasting my time with shares! Inflation aside, and financial crisis or not, if you compare the original RRP of any well kept and liked car from the 70's or 80's to it's current worth, it will be shooting way above it's true original value.

In short, there are too many variables to really conclude anything about this.

[Who Gives]

Apart from the fact that this thread has gone off the rails. . . there is some interesting stuff to read here.

If we go back to the start, these are my 2 cars in the picture that Martin has posted.

Whilst it is enevitable that they will be compared on this forum. . . there is no real comparison

As an outright piece of fun the GTR wins hands down and I am more than satisfied with our purchase.

But if you need to have an all round tough streeter, the W is a better prop. . . for an old fart like me (51)

In response to a couple of posts here I was bemused today to find that a W427 had changed hands for $190k. . . so values may be "Interesting" over the next few years.

The big dollar W went to a collector that proposes to never drive it and he grabbed it because it has less than 12kms on the odo, its the colour he wanted and he can afford it. . . and there will be no more in that combo.. . . ever!!!!

Unfortunately I doubt that will be the path the R35 will take but. . . . what price can you put on Fun. . .

[DAN00H]

Here is THE reason the GTHO got the silly money and prestige/ image that it has today - IT WAS SOMETHING YOU COULD BUY FROM THE DEALER, DRIVE TO THE TRACK AND BE IN THE THICK OF IT... in short, it was a hero car fondly remembered by the baby boomers with plently of money looking to reclaim a part of that nostalga...

something that can't be said of todays ford/ holdens - they will never be that valued - end of arguement.

as for the 2 cars, give me the GTR over the holden anyday. build quality, design and vision are light years ahead. (bring on the booner replies...)

[GT-R32]

Here is THE reason the GTHO got the silly money and prestige/ image that it has today - IT WAS SOMETHING YOU COULD BUY FROM THE DEALER, DRIVE TO THE TRACK AND BE IN THE THICK OF IT... in short, it was a hero car fondly remembered by the baby boomers with plently of money looking to reclaim a part of that nostalga...

something that can't be said of todays ford/ holdens - they will never be that valued - end of arguement.

as for the 2 cars, give me the GTR over the holden anyday. build quality, design and vision are light years ahead. (bring on the booner replies...)

Don't forget the debt fuelled speculation that gave the cars their value. We had an asset bubble in houses which also applied to other things - in this case classic cars.

[Max_ST-R]

For me, if the HDT Brocks from the 80's haven't appreciated crazily after 20 years, I can't see how a current HSV model will somehow replicate what the GTHO has done.

[LSX-438]

For me, if the HDT Brocks from the 80's haven't appreciated crazily after 20 years, I can't see how a current HSV model will somehow replicate what the GTHO has done.

Have you seen how much blue meanies go for? aka Group A VK

Having said that, you can get W427's today for about $150k, so i find it a bit odd that someone is paying $190k. Personally i dont see W447's appreciating (unless you lock them up for 20 years). They will probably hold their value well though.

[Max_ST-R]

Have you seen how much blue meanies go for? aka Group A VK

Having said that, you can get W427's today for about $150k, so i find it a bit odd that someone is paying $190k. Personally i dont see W447's appreciating (unless you lock them up for 20 years). They will probably hold their value well though.

Hi LSX-438 below is a link for a 'blue meanie' for sale at Australian muscle car sales, it is by far the most expensive example I've seen for $88,000 ONO. Most I have seen have been between $60-75K mark. there is also a silver VK SS Brock (not group A) for sale for $37,500 (it's on carsales). As I said, strong, but it's not CRAZY money that various early 70's Falcon GT, Holden Monaros and Valiant R/T Chargers have been fetching...and for me the Brocky's have to be the most collectable Commodores from an investor point of view. Those VK SS Group A's were very similar to the cars that raced at Bathurst and ATCC. The W427 or HSV GTS shares very little to the V8 Supercars that race. Then of course there is the legendary connection of Peter Brock who raced and built these cars. If these cars were going to skyrocket it would be after he passed away and they haven't really.

http://australianmusclecarsales.com.au/mus...p-commodore-200

Here's another interesting one a Phase 3 GTHO, asking $400,000 ONO. Still crazy money, but that's ALOT less then a couple of years ago when $500K plus was the norm and up to $750K

http://australianmusclecarsales.com.au/mus...-xy-gtho-falcon

Edited August 13, 2009 by Max_ST-R

[Beer Baron]

well I can tell you know I wish I had bought a "plastic pig" Grp A walkinshaw a few years ago when a mint condition one was $40K... it's the one 'collectible' holden I would own. I don't know why but I just love them and probably will end up with one at some point. hero car from when I was a kid I guess.... long live the plastic pig. try and deny you love it! go on, you know you want one. shame an average one is $80K these days. I would hate to think what a 1 owner, no kms, collectors one would be worth... I shouldn't worry too much though as I would want to drive it not tow it places and look at it...

http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/privat...&__Qpb=true

http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/privat...&__Qpb=true

[LSX-438]

Hi LSX-438 below is a link for a 'blue meanie' for sale at Australian muscle car sales, it is by far the most expensive example I've seen for $88,000 ONO. Most I have seen have been between $60-75K mark. there is also a silver VK SS Brock (not group A) for sale for $37,500 (it's on carsales). As I said, strong, but it's not CRAZY money that various early 70's Falcon GT, Holden Monaros and Valiant R/T Chargers have been fetching...and for me the Brocky's have to be the most collectable Commodores from an investor point of view. Those VK SS Group A's were very similar to the cars that raced at Bathurst and ATCC. The W427 or HSV GTS shares very little to the V8 Supercars that race. Then of course there is the legendary connection of Peter Brock who raced and built these cars. If these cars were going to skyrocket it would be after he passed away and they haven't really.

http://australianmusclecarsales.com.au/mus...p-commodore-200

Here's another interesting one a Phase 3 GTHO, asking $400,000 ONO. Still crazy money, but that's ALOT less then a couple of years ago when $500K plus was the norm and up to $750K

http://australianmusclecarsales.com.au/mus...-xy-gtho-falcon

Wow that's a cheap group A - i have seen good examples for about $140k

maybe the financial crisis is hitting hard! time to load up on classic dunnydores.